I recently alchemized my Mega Magnus, and am curious as to the usefulness of the Callahan and Iron Slug after the most recent patch. I remember when I used my Magnus, and it would pull a devilite or wolver in, so I could attack with my FF. Is it worth it to upgrade now?
Note: My guns:
-Valiance (ASI Med)
-Virulent Catalyzer (Low Dmg to Slime)
-Antigua, which I'll make into an AP
Post-Patch Iron Slug and Callahan
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 11:00
Thu, 02/23/2012 - 23:38
#2
Something to consider if
Something to consider if you're willing to practice with it: the iron slug is pretty awesome when it comes to flinching. It can cause turrets to shop shooting momentarily if you time it right (the callahan won't for most of them because it causes piercing). It'll also even cause the big gremlins in tier 3 to flop over. It has a nice punch to it so I'm in favor of the slug.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 05:14
#3
:;
Since Callahan doesn't have weak damage to gremlins, it can make gremlins flinch as well :x
Cool note about the Iron Slug and interrupting turrets though.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 05:46
#4
Yeah, I know the callahan can
Yeah, I know the callahan can do that. It could probably work well on devilites as well since I know the slug can make them flinch too. A lot of it is how you time it.
As far as both guns go I like the speed and preciseness of the shot. It just seems to be one of those really accurate guns.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 09:00
#5
It seems like both guns are
It seems like both guns are practically the same, aside from one is piercing and one is normal. I think I'm going to go with the Iron Slug because it can help all-around with enemies (especially turrets). The Callahan would be great to verse devilites, so there's a chance I might go for it (because I use my divine veil at the devilish drudgeries).
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 14:32
#6
choosing between the two...
While that is your own choice, I'll just parrot the information that tends to come from other gunners when this is brought up:
Monsters that both guns can knock down: Devilites [Callahan bonus], Beasts [Callahan bonus], Gremlins
Monsters that both guns can additionally interrupt: Kats, Zombies.
The monsters Callahan deals less damage to: Robots, Lumbers, Turrets, Jellies/Lichens.
Iron Slug and Callahan both have pretty low DPS with the return of having safety when you hit (since they knock down the dodging enemies).
In general, there isn't usually much point (for efficiency's sake) in getting a normal-type weapon unless you only have two weapon slots, or are low on energy. Gunners tend to love having effective weapons to make up for lower damage though, so the preference usually goes to Callahan because of their effectiveness vs Devilites and Wolves, and stronger elemental guns (ex Alchemers, Polaris) against turrets.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:47
#7
The patch changed Both Iron
The patch changed Both Iron Slug and Callihan in a minimal way. With every shot, Both Iron Slug and Callahan has a 100% stagger rate which immediately stops the monsters from attacking and also a chance to make monsters trip over. When they trip over, monsters will have to get up causing them to take longer to recover.
What the patch changed was only when the monsters tripped over. Before the patch it moved the Tripped monsters towards you for 1/4 of an inch. Post patch it moved the tripped monsters ¼ of an inch away from you. The actual distance moved due to tripping both post and pre patch is not much. Most people who own the Callihan or Iron Slug don’t know of the mob displacement.
So if you are thinking maybe I’ll get the Callihan/Iron Slug because the patch made it significantly better now. It isn’t. This weapon still does really low DPS. And how safe it keeps you is also questionable. I mean post T3 you could probably trip lock one Devilite, in T3 though the best you can do is keep a Devilite staggered so it never attacks. And while you are doing all of this all the other Devilites will continue to chuck stuff at you when u stand there, stopped for 1 second every time you shoot. Also with the damage of both Callihan and Iron slug, it will take a while for you to get through all of them…
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 17:50
#8
Valiance is a very good all
Valiance is a very good all rounder weapon and I believe is an example of what all normal guns should be. Fast shooting speed, decent damage, low risk, push. I highly recommend especially if it is your first gun.
Catalyzer this gun does good damage in its normal shots and god AOE damage in its charged detonation. However the problem with this gun is the speed of the bullets which makes it difficult to hit dodging enemies and also enemies which move at a decent speed. This makes this gun only effective against 4 types of enemies Jellies, Trogans, Puppie, lazer robots and zombies. If you turn it into biohazard, it is immensely good against Jellys but you will find it harder to hit gremlins with due to their dodge and moving speed.
AP is extremely powerful post patch. Very, very powerful. Maybe even get a nurf powerful.
IMO Valiance and AP are both valid Magnus replacements really...
Unless you really like staggering stuff.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:35
#9
"decent damage"compared to
"decent damage"
compared to Magnus, maybe, but <300 damage per clip is hardly decent. Okay weapon overall, but very weak. Your standards for damage are very low. I think AP still needs a buff. So do all the other guns.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 19:46
#10
Guns are supposed to do lower
Guns are supposed to do lower damage than swords. I still find the damage that most guns do to be pretty decent for guns. The trade off is the utility and range compared to swords.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:06
#11
Less than swords, I agree.
Less than swords, I agree. Half of what swords can do, way too low.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 20:16
#12
I think what you feel is
I think what you feel is right for a damage threshold is rather subjective, but I think that swords are meant to be the main DPS weapon while the other two are AoE and range. A gunner is still quite capable of finishing floors and dungeons, it just takes a longer time, that's all.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 22:20
#13
Actually, real gunners in
Actually, real gunners in this game is rare.
Guns actually do not do less damage than swords... that's what i disagree on.
Per shot yes, guns will do less. But due its its range and reliability of guns they will be able to produce an attack significantly more than swords.
In terms of the meta game of swords, Swordies are about hitting the mobs without getting hit yourself.
The metagame of Gunning on the other hand are more about maximizing your damage and reducing the time you are not shooting.
For example, in terms of shielding, gunners will use shield bounce significantly more and in the time they are not shield bouncing they ought to be shooting continuously.
I play as a gunner/bomber and i do not see myself deal in any way less damage than swordies. Most people who play with my can testify for this.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 22:41
#14
Funny how you tout being a
Funny how you tout being a "real" gunner over damage outputs (despite one of them being from a bug exploit and another being the most overpowered gun series I've seen). IMO, a real gunner is someone who uses guns and isn't afraid to play around with a few and try to find the ones that are fun and unique. Damage output only means that you get through a level faster and honestly some of us gunners are just fine working at a more laid-back pace.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:04
#15
...?
I own atleast one gun
...?
I own atleast one gun from every gun branch and i use them regularly...?
This means that I try to give every gun a chance...?
I can use the majority of these guns and still get through a run pretty quickly...?
Well i suppose I shouldn't have used the term real gunner, it implies that people who has guns aren't gunners. What i meant was people who excel at using guns as their main weapon and source of damage. This does not include people who use guns in a sword wielding manner or people who use it because they have to.
But... you can for some reason choose not to do damage with the guns you have ... I simply don't understand why you dislike damage...?
Also, can we keep this in the other post ... I am actually trying to be helpful by helping someone make a decision here by giving them my opinion about my favorite type of weapon. Plus I would prefer if our bickering was all located neatly in one post.
Fri, 02/24/2012 - 23:09
#16
I don't dislike damage but I
I don't dislike damage but I also don't choose to grade guns on damage alone. Playstyle comes into factor, and everyone else has a different style.
Even if you own all the guns of the game you're telling other people what guns to get and what not to and then touting what makes a real gunner based on a single standard, which can always change and fluctuate depending on what balances are put into affect. Just with the way you come off, you seem to want to pigeon-hole people into trying only the best guns instead of trying out different guns and experimenting. Just because something works for you doesn't make it the best option for others. For me the iron slug was great, my friend has a good time with it too, and it really won't change because someone thinks the damage is gimped. A lot of guns just aren't going to be up to par with swords but that still doesn't mean they're bad to have.
I think by your standards there are in fact plenty of real gunners if you mean solely using guns. I've met quite a few, and there are obviously enough gunners around to make demands and ask for fixing and balancing in their best interest because they chose guns. You seemed to make the impression that a real gunner is only the one who could optimize their gunning when optimization shouldn't have to be a priority over playstyle.
Sat, 02/25/2012 - 01:58
#17
No.. if you view my comments
No.. if you view my comments in my other post more carefully, in the other post of course, when comparing guns, I take in a variety of factors.
1) Damage
2) Reliability- In how many situations can you shoot this gun safely. EG Pepperbox/Blitzneedle not reliable due to its need to charge and its attack rate ... however the stagger rate of Blitz is good.
3) Bullet Speed- How fast the Bullet travels.
4) Attack Speed- How fast can you shoot this gun.
5) Status- Does it inflict status and how effective is it?
6) Area of effect- Every gun offered some AOE but how effective is it and how does it contribute to its use...
7) Ease of Use- How easy is the use of this gun?
8) Clip size- How many bullets can you shoot before reload
If i take my analysis of the Valiance and Biohazard from earlier you can see I go through many of these notable traits from those two guns that is not damage.
"Valiance is a very good all rounder weapon and I believe is an example of what all normal guns should be. Fast shooting speed (attack Speed), decent damage(damage), low risk (reliability), push (reliability). I highly recommend especially if it is your first gun."
"Catalyzer this gun does good damage(damage) in its normal shots and god AOE damage in its charged detonation(damage, AOE). However the problem with this gun is the speed of the bullets (Bullet Speed) which makes it difficult to hit dodging enemies and also enemies which move at a decent speed(ease of use). This makes this gun only effective against 4 types of enemies Jellies, Trogans, Puppie, lazer robots and zombies. If you turn it into biohazard, it is immensely good against Jellys but you will find it harder to hit gremlins with due to their dodge and moving speed.(ease of use again)"
Although i do admit i did accidentally leave out the clip size of both Biohazard and Valiance and also the attack speed of Biohazard. Which are notable traits of the gun. I will add it now. Both guns shoots 3 bullets before having to reload. The attack speed of both of these guns are both very good and infact one of the best in the game.
I simply do not get where you are coming from when you said I only care about the damage.
Also optimization to me means learning to use a particular weapon. As you learn to use a particular weapon, you will fit your play style to the use of that weapon, allowing you over time make better judgement about the use of the weapon.
Will I get hit after this shot? With this weapon what would be the best approach attacking this particular group of enemies?
Over time you will understand more and more of these things and be able to use the weapon more effectively. This is why when people use a particular weapon over a longer period of time they are usually better than people who started today.
I believe that when people get used to the weapon, for most guns you will be able to do a significant amount of damage with it or the gun may have something else going for it which is equally good.
As a matter of fact the only two guns now which I do NOT recommend to people is the new Pepperbox and the Iron Slug.
For the Iron Slug These are the reasons.
1) Damage
Low damage compared to every other weapon in game.
2) Reliability-
It has a good range, and good stagger/drop rate.
However, you stop for 1 second every time you shoot which significantly lowers reliability.
3) Bullet Speed- How fast the Bullet travels.
Fast bullet speed
4) Attack Speed- How fast can you shoot this gun.
Low attack speed, with a pause every time you shoot, and you only get 1 shot.
5) Status- Does it inflict status and how effective is it?
No status
6) Area of effect- Every gun offered some AOE but how effective is it and how does it contribute to its use...
Better than most guns but not significant.
7) Ease of Use- How easy is the use of this gun?
Despite its long range, it will take new gunners a while to get used to it and it will in my opinion give limited return.
8) Clip size- How many bullets can you shoot before reload
2 before reload. So actually only 1 bullet.
Sat, 02/25/2012 - 00:37
#18
Urgh i over did it again
Urgh i over did it again
IMO, Mega Magnus doesn't really mix with swords. It's good if you use it on its own. I use it a lot with my Angelic set, due to the +dam vs fiend bonus applying to guns. However, the pauses required to shoot the Magnus makes it awkward for someone in the mindset of a Lockdown Striker (Exception being Gunslinger Strikers obviously).
The Magnus works on Beasts too, but beasts are either melee oriented, or slow and predictable. Both of which make it easy for a swordsman to dispatch them. The Magnus really excels on Fiends. It negates their dodge, stuns/disrupts them, and is well... a gun. Devilites are known for being incredibly unpredictable, and painful if you do get hit. With the Magnus, you can play defensively, either constantly moving or constantly shielding, while occasionally taking the brief moment to fire a single shot. It's slow progress, but I find it far more reliable and safer than charging in with your favorite toothpick.