Instead of 7 calendar days, how about something like:
6 login days (don't penalize people who don't play a lot), or
5 days of going into dungeons (don't penalize people who log in to socialize or alchemize), or
4 uses, or
3 days of use (benefit to using it more than once on a given day)
I really like the idea of passes lasting login days rather then calendar days. In my personal example, this starts a horribly busy season for me so I know I will be playing less. It would be nice to know that the pass to Moorecroft or Emberlight I just got in the little free time I have will still be usable 9 days from now, when I can scrape together some more free time to play. Definitely not looking forward to having to do the whole process again (or be stuck somewhere) when next I log on, with the current system. In point of fact, it might actually discourage me from bothering to log in until I'm back to the point where I have more time available.
To equate it to YPP, the reason labor badges last calendar days is because (as long as you're active) you can make money even when you're not logged on. All the other badges are inactive (for lack of a better term) unless you're there. It seems to me that the Travel Pass is exactly like the latter and so it should have the same (or similar) rules.
making then never expirable would go in the way that the developers are thinking. But i really like the idea of logging days (also, mine should have expired already T.T).
I'd rather they go by uses. Successive trips from X to Y would just add more usage to a pass.
This way, only people who use the passes would have to replace them.
Our goal is that players have to head back to Haven regularly. It should be the players' place of residence, in a sense. Subtowns, like Moorcroft and Emberlight, should be more like places that you pass through and restock in.
Right now this is clearly not the case. Any player who has played for a few days makes it to Emberlight and essentially never leaves. Primarily, this is because Haven is completely lacking in unique, exclusive services, but hopefully it won't be too long before this changes.
It's a fair point that a 7 day duration is slightly unfair to irregular players. However, anything that goes by usage is probably a no-go. We want people to use this service. So long as they have a pass, they should have unlimited use thereof (providing they can afford the crown fee).
Mi issue is not that I don't want to go back to Haven, but rather than it's a chore to go back to Emberlight and a waste of energy.
So I get a pass, and for 7 days that's not a problem. But after that, the problem returns.
If you want people to use it, then it has to be affordable.
Moorcroft is a perfect example: It is far too expensive to do dungeon runs from Moorcroft when you finish and wind up in Emberlight, and have to pay to get back to where you were.
If you want people to return to Haven, then Emberlight has to be lacking in stuff. Right now it has stuff. That's the flaw.
You have the traditional RPG format of "later towns have better technology and higher prices than earlier towns", which is appropriate for a railroad linear track game, and not appropriate for a "free travel game world" game.
Why not make the high-end stuff purchasable in Haven? After all, if the strangers want crowns, and are selling stuff to the visitors to get crowns, why not have them sell the high-end stuff? Why is it that only the one gremlin vendor sells the high-end stuff? (Or have I missed someone down there?)
(What does "cite" look like?)
My issue is not that I don't want to go back to Haven, but rather than it's a chore to go back to Emberlight and a waste of energy.
So I get a pass, and for 7 days that's not a problem. But after that, the problem returns.
(Could you tell that that paragraph was cited? Just like Kirk with Kahn.)
Which gets back to the whole issue. If you want people to go back to Haven, then there has to at least not be a penalty for going back to Haven.
There's no penalties for returning to Haven if you have a travel pass.
That 1k cost is much cheaper than the 70 Energy or so it would cost to go to Moorcroft or the 160 to get to Emberlight.
I agree that people should want to return to Haven, but I think that will only work when towns and gates start branching out into other towns.
If there were more towns and the clockworks extended down into the subtowns kind of like tree-roots, I can see people returning to Haven to explore around in the Clockworks much more frequently.
Moreso than if there were just exclusive services in Haven.
As it stands now, there's no reason to return to Haven, because all adventures end in the same place.
It saves time and Energy to just stay in Emberlight.
I would also like to say I have a few other ideas to remedy this, even though I said I wouldn't post any anymore.
But you deleted my awful joke, so you can suffer.
The game should be becoming much more difficult quite soon. One of our intentions is that Tier 3 content becomes, essentially, "raid" content. For anybody but the most elite players, Tier 3 should not be a casual solo stroll, and, in fact, should probably not be a cost-effective daily "farming" experience like it is now. Ideally, you'd die too frequently to offset the crown/heat income.
Tier 2 should probably be where the bulk of players do their daily playing once they've geared up a bit. Playing through Tier 1 once a week shouldn't be too bad.
Finally, one of our goals has always been that no content is completely disposable, as it is in strongly level-based games like Everquest, WoW, etc. Even an "end-game" player might benefit from running Tier 1 every so often. Again, we're clearly not achieving this goal yet, but we've tossed around some ideas to do so. Costume slots (every piece of gear has value as a vanity item) and unique variants (repeated alchemization to achieve desired variants) are a couple existing systems though.
Also, Shoebox, I'm not sure what joke you're talking about. I haven't buhleeted any threads or posts. Too busy playing Poy Poy.
As long as the max health and defense is independent of weapon choice, tier 3 content will never become "raid" content. I have tried using just a proto gun, a normal alchemer, and an elemental alchemer back when diamond falcon gate was still open, and the result was still the same: I could still get down to Lord V, just by kiting, smart use of kiting, and using the enemy against itself (did you know that those trojans actually can kill everything for you if you lure the trojans towards the monsters?)
Ranged weapons are too strong just by design.
> That 1k cost is much cheaper than the 70 Energy or so it would cost to go to Moorcroft or the 160 to get to Emberlight.
The question isn't the energy to run to Moorcroft.
The question is the crowns earned.
Rich, with plenty of crowns to toss around? Sure, travel is cheap -- go where you want to go, and play there.
Not rich? Before you're making lots of emberlight runs?
If I can make a 4 floor run from moorcroft, and return to moorcroft, or I can make an 8 floor run, and then pay 1,000 to get back, the question is how much is that second set of four floors worth? It has to be worth at least 1,000 crowns more than the first four floors, or I'll just run the first 4 twice.
Emberlight is a trap for middle level players right now. It's a trap that encourages you to stay down there.
===
Making tier-1 content desirable? Dang, you've got your work cut out for you then.
Here's an idea: Have some really NASTY stuff down there off of the "wrong way" of a three-way branch of the random assembly levels. Stuff that normal players are not expected to deal with, behind a locked gate with a warning sign. And have these only off the tier-1 levels.
Game mechanics, that would work. But then comes the hard part: The rationale. Why are those areas only found at (low? high? Shallow!) shallow depths, and why do they even exist in the first part?
I'd like to see more unique levels in the different tiers, instead of similar content with tougher monsters. Ideas for making tiers distinct include:
- Different item drops (certain basic components only drop in tier 1)
- Silly mini-games that are embedded in the middle of levels (making early tiers fun regardless of what equipment you have)
- Experimental gameplay mechanics (ranked contests, PVP with specific weapons, etc)
- Lower energy costs for previous tiers. Pay more to earn more rewards.
Basically, I'd like to see the early levels be a destination where you go to have fun regardless of what weapons/rewards you have, while the later levels become raids for special occasions and high-end groups.
While I do agree with the difficulty factor, you're kind of underestimating the ability of the player to be able to win against insurmountable odds using cheap tactics.
I believe Nick made a blog about hard games.
You need to create stages that encourage teamwork, without actively forcing players to act as a team.
Kind of like that Boss Battle I put in my other thread (it's kind of an example of a multiplayer boss fight) where, you would most likely die far too many times playing it on your own.
And while it's all well and good to encourage teamwork, I think if it's not a long-standing point of the game, like so many of the Korean and Japanese MMOs. People are likely to get accustomed to soloing and end up getting frustrated at Tier 3 Dungeons, because they don't want to share loot with other people or whatever.
Simply just making Gates that are 2~4 member groups only would work, but the wait time, as always, would be an insurmountable obstacle.
Provided a new player ever even makes it that far after feeling ripped off by the mist energy system.
There's no quick and easy fix to encourage people to move up in the dungeons, just easy ways to discourage people from playing.
That's the gist of what I'm saying, anyway.
I'd really like if the tier 1 content was always present.
I have never seen the early trojans for example, and have forgotten what normal chromalisks look like.
Also, BehindCurtain, the top tier equip is actually sold at Haven, the only good thing the merchant in Emberlight sells is the Troika. Even then, after you have some decent gear there's no more reason to go to Haven.
If I can make a 4 floor run from moorcroft, and return to moorcroft, or I can make an 8 floor run, and then pay 1,000 to get back, the question is how much is that second set of four floors worth? It has to be worth at least 1,000 crowns more than the first four floors, or I'll just run the first 4 twice.
Wait a second, can't you just Return to Moorcroft Manor using the escape menu from Emberlight anymore?
It used to be free to go up using the elevator.
Nope, you can't. It costs you to go up to Moorecroft from Emberlight now. 1000 crowns worth. Using the Options menu will return you to Haven now, from any town. While I liked the idea of Travel Passes, I think going UP should always be free, no matter where you are. So, from Emberlight, your choice is go to Haven for free or pay 1000 c. to go to Moorecroft, assuming you have a pass. All in all I think it's severely DIScouraged me from leaving Emberlight. Before I used to hop up to Moorecroft and Haven all the time, but now, if my pass runs out? No, I'm not likely to go up to Haven just to make the run to get a new pass. Moreover, if I do choose to, I make it a solo run so I can bust through as fast as I can. All in all I don't think it's doing anything to encourage people to have Haven as a home base OR to encourage older players to return to Haven to help newer players. I guess it's a crown sink though?
I mean, I'm all about helping, I just don't like to feel like I'm being coerced to do it. And that's what the current travel system makes me feel like.
Travel agent costs will be significantly reduced with the next patch.
And while it's all well and good to encourage teamwork, I think if it's not a long-standing point of the game, like so many of the Korean and Japanese MMOs. People are likely to get accustomed to soloing and end up getting frustrated at Tier 3 Dungeons, because they don't want to share loot with other people or whatever.
I feel that solo'ing actually made it easier for me to survive in group play. Earlier today I was with Shango and Kitty, and whether it was from lag, or surprise, or whatever, I was the only person to repeated not die, just because I was used to surviving on my own.
I repeat...as long as there is any ranged weapon that will not reduce defense ability and/or max health, all of the difficulty in this game can only be attributed to the time factor: just how long do you want to spend beating any one level? Because as long as I do 1 point of damage to the enemy without any sort of health retribution, and I can repeat it ad infinitum, I will be able to beat any enemy.
Perhaps have a collapsing lift...something big is making the lift unstable, and there is only a certain time for each level before the gate falls prematurely (which forces the group to have to go back to the previous haven). This would promote team play, while at the same time making it extremely difficult for solo'ers. This is also good because if you solo, you can keep all the drops (presumably rare ones) for yourself, but it might be hard to finish each level within the time limit.
One of our intentions is that Tier 3 content becomes, essentially, "raid" content. For anybody but the most elite players, Tier 3 should not be a casual solo stroll, and, in fact, should probably not be a cost-effective daily "farming" experience like it is now. Ideally, you'd die too frequently to offset the crown/heat income.
I don't see how adding a time limit to anything would be less frustrating.
It would be a deal-breaker for me if levels had time limits, but charged me energy to enter them.
And while I slightly agree that range is the biggest advantage in the game, it's mostly because the level design isn't meant to incorporate people just using a gun to blast through everything.
Gun users are kind of like Power Players, they cash in on an advantage and abuse it.
Like Turtlers abuse defensive positions or Campers abuse predictable spawn points.
If they accept it as a valid form of play and do more to combat it, instead of just nerfing it and nerfing it until Guns are useless (like they did with bombs), it would be harder to solo through an area with just a gun.
The game right now just allows for certain tactics that can get you through places using only a gun and specific movement patterns.
It's not impossible to incorporate new enemy tactics or spawns that make it easier for monsters to cash in on predictable player actions.
> Also, BehindCurtain, the top tier equip is actually sold at Haven, the only good thing the merchant in Emberlight sells is the Troika.
Really? I'll take another look then. I don't recall seeing anything above about 6000 in haven; I'm certain I didn't see anything above the 11-something level.
(EDIT: As pointed out, three-star items are 11,500 in Haven; 3 star recipes are also sold, and less.)
Guns: For the most part, monsters are currently all using the same AI: Dumb.
Make some monsters smart enough to stay out of gun range.
Make others smart enough to realize that they are being shot, and run around the wall to reach you. Yea, for some, this will mean running into your gun fire enough to still die, but at least it won't be as pointless as shooting across a gap until they switch to "flee" mode.
(And why do some monsters switch to "flee" mode when you've shot at them enough, resulting in them becoming completely harmless?)
When was anything said about a time limit?
I think it's only Gremlins that do this, and I think it might actually work very well when there are Menders present. When they're not, though, it does end up a pretty stupid thing for them to do.
Really? I'll take another look then. I don't recall seeing anything above about 6000 in haven; I'm certain I didn't see anything above the 11-something level.
I bought my Firotech Alchemer up in Haven for 11500 crowns.
I think it's only Gremlins that do this, and I think it might actually work very well when there are Menders present. When they're not, though, it does end up a pretty stupid thing for them to do.
Kats do it too, as do wolvers.
Yes, three-star equipment is sold for 11,500.
You can't buy anything more than that in Haven.
So your 4-star stuff is obtained elsewhere, and needs drops found deep in the depths.
I've seen vendors in the dungeons selling stuff not in Haven. (Or am I crazy?)
You're not crazy, you're a wizard. Basil, Traveling Merchant Extraordinaire and All-Around Rockstar, can be found in Clockwork Tunnels selling items and recipes. He also occasionally pops up in various levels.
"The game should be becoming much more difficult quite soon. One of our intentions is that Tier 3 content becomes, essentially, "raid" content. For anybody but the most elite players, Tier 3 should not be a casual solo stroll, and, in fact, should probably not be a cost-effective daily "farming" experience like it is now. Ideally, you'd die too frequently to offset the crown/heat income.
Tier 2 should probably be where the bulk of players do their daily playing once they've geared up a bit. Playing through Tier 1 once a week shouldn't be too bad.
Finally, one of our goals has always been that no content is completely disposable, as it is in strongly level-based games like Everquest, WoW, etc. Even an "end-game" player might benefit from running Tier 1 every so often. Again, we're clearly not achieving this goal yet, but we've tossed around some ideas to do so. Costume slots (every piece of gear has value as a vanity item) and unique variants (repeated alchemization to achieve desired variants) are a couple existing systems though.
Also, Shoebox, I'm not sure what joke you're talking about. I haven't buhleeted any threads or posts. Too busy playing Poy Poy.
"
Whatever happened to this? Tier 3 is definitely not raid content. Even shadow lairs don't qualify as raid content anymore. It would be cool if we got true raid content.
For Khorne's sake, Khamsin. Look at the date of the posts above you.
he probably knows since he got two of these up.
kham, make a new thread and link this to it. don't necro threads just to say "I agree". a link makes everyone read the thread. necroing makes only some read the thread, the others just see the necro, which, if it wasn't implemented, won't be implemented .
"For Khorne's sake, Khamsin. Look at the date of the posts above you."
And what's your point? I mean, to a certain extent I think that changing design philosophies over time can be good, but deciding to ditch the concept of hard content entirely? Not so good.
You shouldn't just bump / necro a thread which was created 3 years ago, unless there's a really good point in the idea.
"You can't just bump / necro a thread which was created 3 years ago"
I just did.
Still, I think this is worth talking about. Hopefully challenge mode will fill the "raid" niche, but time will tell.
If it's worth talking about, do what Thunder said. Create a new thread, not necro a thread.
But with the thread right here, you can see the developers comments directly, not have to go through a link.
Not to mention you're derailing the thread. I want to see what people's thoughts are on this subject.
You aren't swag, you aren't boss. Just please. Don't go hip on the community.
The subject is no longer relevant because it doesn't exist. That or this derailed and I don't want to read through it.
"Re-creating threads is better than necroing a 3-year old thread."
Skyguarder, I see no point in making more threads than needed for the very same subject. In some sort of "General Gaming Discussion" type area on any forums, why would you need 5 different threads for the very same thing? Or 10. This is only an example. It's better to bring a thread from the dead (Assuming it's contents still stand existent in the game and you add enough value to the post) than to have more than enough for the same subject.
Yes, in most situations, you shouldn't always necrobump, but the earlier quoted is still wrong. It should be too easy to understand the bump is better than the thread recreation, especially if you've been in a much smaller, breathable, calm forum community. How often do you go to those types of forums, or just forums in general?
It's pointless either way, because elevator passes no longer exist ingame.
How about... They don't ever expire. I'll probably never go back to Haven otherwise.