Forums › English Language Forums › General › General Discussion

Search

Discussion and rambling on new content, the community, and (of course) beggars.

12 replies [Last post]
Tue, 02/28/2012 - 08:38
Wuvvums's picture
Wuvvums

I thought this would be something worth discussing, partially because it seems to be one of those things that keeps coming back, and because it's something that may be hard to understand, hard to articulate, hard to explain, and maybe something we don't know entirely. These topics come up again and again, and they're usually polarized issues. I would like to ask though that you explain your points calmly and openly. We can argue, but we don't need to get angry at one another for our thoughts.

Today I'll talk about three things: new content, paying players versus free players, and beggars.

New content:
I know we all want new content for this game, but I always keep pondering to myself what new content can they make and how will it be made? What do the players want? Sometimes when we are given new content I think we have people who aren't satisfied about how big the new content is, or what direction it takes the game. I will say that I think this is a hard game to develop new content for because 1: it is very simplistic, and 2: it is level-based instead of world-based.

Both of these issues are grounded in how the game has been made, and I will say from the closed beta until today the game still very much plays and looks the same to what it has been. You get new quirks added in, but what you do when you approach the game, and how you go through the game has always been pretty much the same. You go down into a level, you beat stuff up, and you progress. It's a rather simple, but simple games can be good.

Some of the best games have been games with very little flair to it; pacman, tetris, even games like minecraft today have proven that a game can hold a lot of entertainment value and not have to change much or have anything new. Perhaps something about the online model changes people's expectations, though there have been plenty of times that I've seen online games have very little to offer and don't offer much update at all.

Before I go off on a tangent I'll say this: I just wonder what can you add that would satisfy the players? Are they looking for harder content? Are they looking for puzzle-like innovations (like in dungeons)? Do they want an entirely new experience? What can you do with a system that has you just run into a level and beat up things? The level system does make the world feel disjointed, but I do think it's the best system to accommodate a game that was selling itself on being an action party game. I don't know if they every promised players or gave them the impression that this game was gonna be big and the updates ground-breaking, especially since Three Rings has been a maker of small and simplistic games.

I mean, if you check their other featured products you can see Whirled is like their flash-based second-life, Puzzle Pirates is their little puzzling MMO, and I haven't seen much of the Dr Who game but I have a feeling it's following that same model as well. They also made a bunch of little flash games as well. They make fun and unique games that are simplistic at its core, but they also offer a lot to other developers in terms of resources and share a lot of open-source materials. I'm not sure if they intended for Spiral Knights to be this big, or for it to be a huge ground-breaking game. I think for the most part OOO was a maker of fun, casual games, and I think Spiral Knights is their first that's not like that, and they're trying to make it better, but I don't know how much they could change what is essentially a “little” game to really make it something to attract the players who have had too much of it and got tired of it.

I'm not saying we should lower our expectations for Spiral Knights or Three Rings. I also don't think we should assume that this game will never change. But I think that it's pretty much the way it was when it was established, the system is pretty fun but it's easy to get too much of it and be bored later. I am content to know that they are going to work on the story-line which so far seemed pretty invisible and a side-thought. They could add more levels and dungeons, but it seems people start getting a burnout for that new content as well. The dungeons are pretty fun and interesting, but it boils down to being “ooo, shiney” when it's new, and then people return to complaining that there isn't much new content. I just don't know what they could do to remedy that.

F2P vs P2P
Players seem to be a little mad at one another at times, because paying players get a faster, easier playing experience but freepers are seen as leeches to the system. The thing is the game needs both payers and freepers to survive. Without enough freepers this would be a very lonely and boring MMO and this game does in fact depend on some social and party player. Payers are needed to keep the game financially stable, and the crowns to energy exchange stable.

Even if some content has a paywall, you can get most out of what the game is in tier 1 and tier 2, which thanks to the new mission system, new players have a guiding hand to getting this content without having to pay, and they get to experience a majority of the game without paying. I do think the current mission system was more made for the freepers and the new players who feel lost and stuck because they have to play a week and let things recharge just to get to the average level of difficulty. I do think this helps streamline the progression to get you started into the main part of the game.

I've seen other MMOs that are free to play but wouldn't let you go to certain towns, levels, or missions without paying so that there were certain areas left inaccessible. They would do the same for races, and some weapons and armor, but in this game you can get most all of the main content for free barring the fact that it takes a long time. People are saying the new mission expansions violate the free-to-play model and are at least ideologically opposed to it when it's apparent that you can already get most all of the game experience without paying. It does suck that freepers have to deal with this, but I don't think it's something that makes the game corrupt, the company arrogant, or the free players undervalued.

We know people will buy lots of energy and buy the promotions, but overall, we don't know exactly how much money goes into the game and how much goes out due to expenses. We don't know how much Sega financially supports Three Rings, or if Three Rings is required to have a certain profit margin for Sega. We can call them greedy but we don't know their financial situation, and we seem to selectively ignore that the developers actually communicate with us quite a bit, as well as their other staff.

There hasn't been any other game I played where you could openly chat with the CEO (though he isn't on whirled that much anymore), their game masters, their developers, or have their marketing reps interview you on skype. They also communicate with us on things they don't need to, like commenting on Bechemal's gender, or saying things in the art threads, or discussing issues with players. Even if you think they may not be listening to you it doesn't hurt to talk to them and tell your concerns. It may not change anything in your favor, but they do listen and they do care.

Anyways, to get back on topic, even if it feels like you're getting crapped on by the company keep in mind they want to make a good gaming experience for everyone. The paywalls here and there may seem intrusive but they shouldn't detract from the entire game, or turn the paying players against the free players. I think overall we should realize we're here for the same reasons to play and enjoy the game, and people shouldn't be shamed or ridiculed for supporting a company they like.

Beggars
Now I can say that unanimously most people are against beggars and begging and I am too. I've become particularly concerned because the prevalence of beggars has hindered the ability for others to become helpful. I think it's okay to ask for help from other players when getting into this game. It's really daunting on new players to think about everything they have to get to move forward.

But there's a huge difference between trying to get help, and begging. What I've seen from beggars is a lack of empathy. They don't understand there's no such thing as a free lunch; when they beg they are expecting others who may be just as needy to make sacrifices for them. They don't care if you have money issues or crowns issues, if they can they'll bleed you dry and move on to the next target.

I thought I would help with a guild centered around helping new people. I made a “vault” to put away materials so that the common materials in the higher tiers that I wouldn't have issue giving could help a newer player. But as soon as it was discussed I kept getting very demanding and very nagging PMs demanding all the materials for the purposes of vending. I was saying these were for crafting and for quests but it was so overwhelming how much this guy was messaging me over it especially when I told him I was busy and had to go and they were not for that purpose. I do remember before the AH was out I would also give out materials people -needed- for their crafting that I did not, but I still had players coming just demanding the whole inventory and it was clear that they were trying to drain.

This is very disrespectful but it's also very shaming how it works out. You can't reach out a hand to help someone new who might just need something as mundane as two brimstone without getting a bunch of piranhas swarming you for everything you got. I used to love helping and getting people set up with what they got in small amounts, but now you have people just bumming around, begging for exorbitant amounts of crowns and CE, and if you give them just the tiniest bit you can spare they don't even thank you and run off to the next target.

It doesn't help that I know someone IRL like this. My brother. Sometimes he doesn't even come to visit me unless he thinks I can give him a dollar and then he's off again. Not even a hello, or “Hey sis, how's it been?” No. It's just “Hey I really need a dollar right now!” and then bam, he's out of there. He's like that with his mom too, and doesn't understand the value of money at all which is why he can steal from his mom, his brother, our cousins, and even me, without understanding that that money puts a roof over his head and food in his belly. The way beggars act, they don't really understand the sacrifices other players have made, how much this stuff given to them is really worth, and why they should be extremely grateful for even the small amounts. This stuff doesn't just suddenly magic up; something's gotta give, and it's not fair to expect the rest of the playerbase to put you through the game.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 08:51
#1
Jamoo's picture
Jamoo
Rommil for president ^-^

Beggars
Now I can say that unanimously most people are against beggars and begging and I am too. I've become particularly concerned because the prevalence of beggars has hindered the ability for others to become helpful. I think it's okay to ask for help from other players when getting into this game. It's really daunting on new players to think about everything they have to get to move forward.

But there's a huge difference between trying to get help, and begging. What I've seen from beggars is a lack of empathy. They don't understand there's no such thing as a free lunch; when they beg they are expecting others who may be just as needy to make sacrifices for them. They don't care if you have money issues or crowns issues, if they can they'll bleed you dry and move on to the next target.

You sir, are magnificent. Go to politics.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 08:53
#2
Exileddread's picture
Exileddread
You forgot that every content

You forgot that every content update has been a marketing scheme designed to bring in more profits aside from missions, which are basically just giving people a reason to do non-boss stratums. And now missions are turning into another marketing scheme with expansions. When every content update is a marketing scheme, does this not make the player feel as if the company is being greedy? That's the impression I get as a player.

As for your argument about P2P and F2P. I believe it's invalid, because I haven't seen both parties duking it out. Many of the P2P players I know despise the new expansions because of what it does to F2P players. If anything, I see this as the community working together. I've even seen some P2P players getting mad at other P2P players because they plan on promoting the new expansions.

Personally, I also despise what the company behind this game is doing. Who's to say that all of the good, new content won't just be expansions? I've become very inactive in this game and will most likely stop playing because of it.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 08:59
#3
Aumir's picture
Aumir
And

And also there is the other marketing scheme: the new Depot and the daily Prestige Missions that can ask you 3*-4* or even PvP and boss rewards AND energy pack goodies such as those 1* bombs. The Depot is just there to "oh I need a X thing for Y mission to get Z prestige points, I will buy X thing with CE even if it costs a bit more due to the hassle". And we don't have those tier 3 missions yet, but when we do you can bet they will ask 5* and Shadow Lair equipment.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 08:59
#4
Pepperonius's picture
Pepperonius
Rommil?

Am i missing something?

re: beggars

The problem (and insulting part) is that it implies that their time is worth more than ours. We acquired the currency/items that they want the hard way, and they don't want to put in the work. A lack of general grammar and ability to speak further impedes their usefulness in game, and my willingness to help them. Generally, a 2 star players seling mats for reasonable prices gets my crowns, because at least they are trying to do something to get their money. Saying: "hai i jus started and i need cr pl0x" is not going to cut if for me.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:00
#5
Wuvvums's picture
Wuvvums
I can acknowledge that the

I can acknowledge that the game has become very profit-oriented and I think part of it was when it became a steamgame, and when Sega came on board. But as I said we do not know their financial situation or what goals and obligations they have. Just because the content is meant to market to us doesn't mean that the company is being greedy, so much as its acting in the ways that most companies do when they have obligations to make to their shareholders and partners.

I've seen some duking it out between P2P and F2P but it's been relatively minor. I'm talking more about attitudes, which is there's somewhat of an attitude that a game doesn't need freepers and they shouldn't care about what freepers want because they aren't giving them money. I have seen some resentment in general that payers are what's making the company the way it is and supporting the company, when it's their choice to spend the way they want to on the game and play with the new content.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:13
#6
Exileddread's picture
Exileddread
Marketing to the players is

Marketing to the players is fine, but there's a line that the company crossed. That line is alienating F2P. When expansions have the potential to make up the majority of the content in Spiral Knights (which isn't much), then the game is no longer free.

No, we don't know their financial situation, but like I already said, they're giving the impression to the players that they're greedy after every content release. The financial situation they may or may not be in does not change that fact.

I'll simply have to wait until expansions come out to see how much content it is and make my judgments based on it. Right now it's purely speculations and guesses. The point is, shutting F2P players out from a game where one of the main selling points is that everything is accessible for free, is not a cool thing to do.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:10
#7
Wuvvums's picture
Wuvvums
Perronius: That sums it up

Perronius:

That sums it up quite nicely. I think I mentioned that I observed the exact same behavior in my little brother. I just wonder if a lot of the beggars are young, or children, and a lot of them have the "gimme gimme" attitude. Hopefully they outgrow that, but it's really hard to know and hard to say whether or not we can find a common trait in how the beggars act. I could say that I think there's more beggars than before, but I think in general there's more of a population than what it used to be, so of course I wasn't gonna see as much of it in the beta, or before the release of it on steam.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:14
#8
Eltia's picture
Eltia
How to deal with beggars

Flat out say "no", but offer to buy mats from said beggars. What I discovered is that a lot of these "beggars" only need a small amount of CR to progress through game. But without guild support, they have a hard time to push through that bottleneck and hence resort to begging. So selling mats is actually a much preferable way to fund their progress. Crafters (like myself) always welcome reasonably priced mats (like shards, which are always in demands).

The bigger problem is scammers. "Can I borrow XXX amount of CR from someone I promise to repay you in 3 days". That won't work for banks, that won't work in MMO neither. These people are the real trouble makers in the community and should be ignored or deal with by OOO.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:15
#9
Wuvvums's picture
Wuvvums
We don't know if expansions

We don't know if expansions are going to make up the majority of the content. We also don't know if the majority of the content has already been delivered to us. It'd be nice if some of it could be explained but there's a lot of assumptions that are being made. I think I was mentioning that this company tends to make small games and puts in updates but the updates are small and are usually features and quirks. You could enjoy most of the games and their game content without paying, and I think Spiral Knights is one of their first that was profit-pushed so I would say that they are kind of new to something like this.

Maybe I'm just too used to something like whirled, where they eventually broke down to having like one or two developers in all, and most of their updates were feature-based. I don't even know how Puzzle Pirates is, but from what I hear that game hasn't been updated for a long time. I'm just saying this company hasn't demonstrated in its history of making huge expansions or huge, groundbreaking features for their games. They tend to make a lot of small games and help share resources for developers to try and make their small games as well. Spiral Knights feels like one of their biggest, most public games and that may be a first for them (since, as mentioned, I don't know much of the history of Puzzle Pirates and I joined in when they were doing their flash phase on whirled).

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:16
#10
Wuvvums's picture
Wuvvums
@Eltia I think I could try

@Eltia

I think I could try that. I wouldn't mind encouraging and facilitating trade among the beggars so they can learn to work for the crowns. The scammers are an issue too.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 09:26
#11
Pepperonius's picture
Pepperonius
@ Eltia

I suppose it could be attempted, however there are quite a few beggars around these days, and only so much crowns to go around. I will, however ,start by offering to purchase mats from beggars who are asking for a specific sum, and go from there.

Tue, 02/28/2012 - 10:56
#12
Niichi's picture
Niichi
Perhaps something about the

Perhaps something about the online model changes people's expectations, though there have been plenty of times that I've seen online games have very little to offer and don't offer much update at all.

Just to remark on this, but the online model changes things because it expects you to feed in money on a rather regular basis as opposed to a one time fee (or in the case of a game like SK, it expects someone to feed in money on a regular basis). Because the game is constantly after money then it needs to think both in terms of attracting new players and retaining the old players. The latter task is what causes the demand for content moreso than offline games, because once they get bored they'll move on and that means one less potential source of income.

Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system