Energy is at 4.5k per 100 and it'll definitely hit 5k per 100 soon enough. I think this change or a change similar to this is important to keep new players interested in this game. New players make mistakes, they don't spend their energy wisely, and by making energy so expensive it will severely limit their playtime. That's all the reasoning I think I need to give.
Cut T1 elevator costs by half.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 11:25
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 11:34
#2
bump... and grind.. Tier 1,
bump... and grind.. Tier 1, for crowns :)
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 11:50
#3
wholeheartedly agree
wholeheartedly agree
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 12:00
#4
Don't decrease energy demand, increase crown demand.
If the energy trade value gets too high, the answer is to sink more crowns, not sink less energy.
Lowering the cost for tier 1 elevators won't significantly dent the energy demand, because most people who use a lot of energy are on tiers 2 and 3, so prices will remain high. It will also run the risk of costing OOO paying customers and new players won't need to pay as much as soon.
So, if energy prices really get too high (I don't think they are there yet), you have to change the other side of the supply and demand equation by increasing demand for crowns. The best way to do that is to add crown-only items to purchase. Preview had PvP arena fees, so I expect those to come back eventually when PvP is ready for full release. An auction house that takes a fee from each trade would sink some crowns and should put downward pressure on energy prices. Costume-only armor, guild hall decorations, and other cosmetic features are also possible routes to increase crown demand.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 12:36
#5
Icee sounds like he knows
Icee sounds like he knows what he's doing, maybe we should try it?
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 12:44
#6
I think you're missing the
I think you're missing the point though. It's not so much about energy prices as it is about new players starting, and wishing to continue playing the game.
The fact is, new players need energy to keep playing. Previously, at least when I started, I was able to earn enough from a T1 run to keep playing uninhibited. (though I saved anyway.) Now, we're at a case where a T1 run can't support them, and the predicted result is that because they aren't able to play as often, they're unable to actually "get into it".
Now my thoughts are that this idea is good on the surface, but in the end it can easily be abused, and it may even have a side effect of raising energy prices. The players could EASILY grind T1 over and over again with the lower energy cost, but the costs of crafting are still the same, which is where most of the energy use would come from. (Though, that varies from player to player.)
What I'm thinking could be done is we make it sort of like a "tutorial" phase, where the energy costs are temporarily reduced, but gradually increase as the player does more floors.
An idea would be something like this:
0-10 floors, 5 energy per floor
11-20 floors, 6 energy per
21-30 floors, 7 energy per
31-40 floors, 8 energy per
41-50, 9 energy per
50+ 10 energy per
After the first 10 floors, each floor would cost 6 energy, then 7 energy, and so on and so forth. This would keep it from being abused as-is, and the energy cost would reciprocate their familiarity with the game.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 13:22
#7
thats an interesting
thats an interesting proposal. previously people had suggested metrics like what tiers you had unlocked, but the number of floors played makes better sense since you couldn't abuse it by staying at a low tier on purpose. you'd just have the increased cost over time no matter what your equipment looks like. thats one of the better proposals I've seen regarding a change to elevator costs.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 13:24
#8
A cheap tutorial phase would
A cheap tutorial phase would be a good idea as long as it doesn't make alts too cost effective (I don't think it would, since they all have to spend a number of energy just to make it through the Rescue Camp); any permanent change to the economy, such as injecting more cr or lowering prices, would just imbalance the equation of supply/demand. This is more like a personal power surge weekend for each player.
Maybe prevent alts from getting it; it can be triggered to new accounts.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 13:25
#9
New players don't need to keep playing.
You are correct when you say that new players need energy to keep playing [in a given session]. What you fail to recognize is that new players don't need to keep playing; they can come back tomorrow when their mist is refilled. The people most likely to pay, I'm guessing, are adults with jobs followed by students in school (who generally have disposable income from allowance or part-time jobs). We can't sit by our computers all day. For us, 1-2 hours of play time is perfect and we get that from 100 mist. Even though I am perfectly content to buy as much energy as I need, my CE is pretty much only used for high-level crafting, because I don't have time to play more levels than my mist tank allows.
When I was new (during preview), I thought my mist energy was enough to play as much as I wanted and that included crafting. I didn't want to craft high level gear right away. What I did craft was only 10 energy per recipe, so I crafted one item a day, had fun comparing it to my proto gear and did a run through T1. Maybe I'm atypical, but 100 mist energy per day, plus the two tanks, was enough to keep me hooked for a week, during which time I bought 300 CE on the exchange just to have when I decide to craft nicer stuff. Eventually, I was playing on a rainy weekend day and wanted to do extra runs through the dungeons, so I considered the cash price, decided it was very fair, and bought CE.
I never felt like I couldn't play enough for free until I was at a point where OOO probably wanted me to feel that way so I'd buy some energy. That means the energy demands are good right where they are if I'm like the typical player. Maybe I am not a typical player, but I'd guess I'm pretty close to the typical paying player. If so, the system works as is, because the 10 energy T1 elevator costs helped nudge me toward pulling out my wallet when I otherwise might have played for free for a few more weeks.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 13:59
#10
Fascinating distinction
Fascinating distinction between "typical player" and "typical paying player", Icee. Thank you.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 14:16
#11
There are some players who
There are some players who want to play more than their mist tank allows.
Most players either have disposable income, or an abundance of time. To those who want to run a few more floors, that means buying energy with crowns. But this isn't even about that. This is about letting new players get a feel for the game, before the high cost of energy tunes them out of it. I started playing when energy was at 2,500 crowns for 100 energy, and to see that it's close to hitting twice that is making me a little sad. Right now, I can make the crowns back from running through the Clockworks in tier 2 and 3, but tier 1 gets you like 2,500 to 3,000 crowns. That USED to be enough to make progress by making multiple runs, earning you enough crowns to even get a piece of 2 star equipment within about 2 days. And that's assuming they don't revive using energy or pay to open energy gates, new players make mistakes.
I'm for lowering initial costs of the elevator. Although it could stand to be a might faster to scale up than what Unbounded mentioned. Maybe it goes up 1 energy per stratum (5 floors)?
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 14:37
#12
Fair enough
Yes, I can agree they don't NEED to keep playing, but the majority would WANT to keep playing. If a company can't effectively cater to someone's wants, then people will just take their business elsewhere.
Now, for a little point people don't seem to consider-
This is a game where the "free" players are actually important with the use of an energy market. Yes, they don't have to actually spend their own money on energy, but they DO buy the energy from someone else who bought it with real money in the first place. The large number of nonpaying players in the game actually operate as an incentive for those who actually CAN and WILL pay real money for energy. The increased playerbase is an increased demand for energy. The higher the demand, the more people WILL be willing to pay for crown energy, and as the amount a player can earn from selling 100 crystal energy increases, as does their incentive to actually buy crystal energy and sell it to other players.
The fact is that those players, the free players actually HELP three rings make money. Any extra player they can keep in the game is a help, so why not try to keep those players in the first place?
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 15:11
#13
Free players aren't quite customers
You want OOO to cater to the wants of players who don't pay, and threaten that such players will "take their business elsewhere." Of course, since they are playing for free, they are not giving OOO their business anyway. They are creating a cost for OOO without directly contributing to revenues. If they take that "business" elsewhere, OOO may save money because they will need fewer servers and fewer GMs.
Having some free players helps OOO make money. Having too many will cost them money.
In a way, free players aren't customers; they are part of the game environment. Having some of them enhances the experience for paying players who want more knights in their guild or want to sell energy for crowns on the exchange. At a certain point, though, there are enough free players to satisfy the needs of the paying players and having any more just increases costs without increasing revenue.
OOO needs to strike a fine balance between allowing free play and encouraging paid play. Make it too easy to freeload and players will do so when they otherwise would have paid or quit, increasing costs without increasing revenues. Make it too tough and not enough free players will be around to drive the crown side of the exchange, which will also keep some paid players from continuing or buying more CE to turn to crowns. Right now, the servers look busy and there is plenty of activity in the energy market, so it looks like there's a good mix of free and paid players. You're proposing that it become easier to freeload, and I think that change would cost OOO money in the end.
Edit to add:
You further contend that "as the amount a player can earn from selling 100 crystal energy increases, [so] does their incentive to actually buy crystal energy and sell it to other players." The first part is true - rising energy market prices will encourage more people to buy energy for cash, because it will be more difficult to freeload. The second part - that more energy will be sold for crowns - is incorrect. Energy is sold for crowns when the energy buyer needs crowns. Crown demand is not created by rising energy values, it is created by the crown sinks in the game. Right now, players want crowns to sink on recipes, which cost up to 45K crowns, and gear (up to 30K from vendors). As the value of energy increases, an individual will tend to sell less CE on the exchange because they won't need to sell much to buy what they want. Some of the reduced per-player energy selling can be offset by a few freeloaders being convinced by the high prices to pay, but there will be a tipping point beyond which everyone willing to pay has done so. No matter how high energy prices get on the exchange, a player won't sell energy if they have nothing to spend the crowns on. So having too many freeloaders can theoretically lead to OOO selling less energy overall, even if they maintain the same number of paying customers.
Thu, 04/21/2011 - 15:29
#14
I should probably clarify
I should probably clarify that in the first point I was simply talking about NEW players, not free players. It's after I start talknig about "that point many don't consider" that I start talking about free players explicitly.
The players who can "take their business elsewhere" haven't yet decided if they're going to pay or not. They haven't played nearly long enough to make a choice yet. They MAY or MAY NOT give Three Rings their business. However, if they feel that the game limits them a significant amount, they won't continue anyway.
Most players, paying or otherwise don't feel that the moment they start that they will or won't spend money on the game. It usually takes time. They have to feel as if the game is worth their time, or worth their money. If they don't have any chance to decide, then they'll just leave and not even bother. Hence why some games have demos. Spiral knights essentially lacks that "demo" period other than the extremely short amount of time they start out with. A new player will start playing, and then before they know it, their playtime is over for a full day. This can easily get extremely frustrating.
On the point about me "proposing that it become easier to freeload", that's dead wrong. It wouldn't necessarily be "easier to freeload" by any means. Sure, if you outright cut the energy cost for T1 runs in half, it does. If you make it a case where their energy cost starts relatively low and slowly starts increasing, you've just given a free player a full on "trial" period. They can decide whether or not they want to keep playing the game. They can decide if they want to start spending money. No matter how it goes, by the end of that period they're on the same level as everyone else. Nothing would make their lives any easier than our current system.(except for maybe the extra crowns) They would have simply had extra playtime.
Of course, I should also point out that a larger player base is always a good thing. More players, or better yet, satisfied players can easily work as free advertisement by word of mouth. More players can call in more paying players. More players means a more populated community, and as such, a more lively game. One could even say if they wanted, that more players means more ideas that could contribute to the development of the game.
EDIT ON YOUR EDIT: If I can earn an extremely large amount of crowns by selling energy, an amount of crowns that I could easily get with no chance of failure whatsoever, I'll want to spend actual money on energy to get said crowns. The amount I can get for energy is increasing, but the cost of energy remains the same. I can agree that sure, people won't sell their crystal energy for crowns if crowns are useless, but that's the glory of a game that's constantly updated. The use for crowns is quite frankly, unlimited. Uses will constantly be created.
Moreover, there are still extremely huge sinks that nobody has even bothered with yet, such as the "boost" option at the gates.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 00:46
#15
Good god, have you folks
Good god, have you folks heard of brevity? And it seems as if you're just beginning microeconomics Icee, which is all fine and dandy but you're missing the point:
The price of energy WILL go up. I don't even care about that.
What I care about is giving new players the ability to get into this game. Not many people will buy energy with real money after only a couple hours of play, and within 2 hours of playing you can easily get rid of all your mist energy. Sure, make it so the energy prices scale with the stratum, or just every x amount of floors, just MAKE SURE IT SCALES.
Shutting out potential buyers is simply a horrid marketing choice. More people will sink their money into this game after they've gotten hooked into it. Not after 2 hours of play - in fact shutting people out of the game after 2 hours is more than likely to give you the opposite of the desired effect. They'll be like, "Oh, that's a cool game although after blowing all my energy on crafting those haze bombs I couldn't play anymore, so I stopped playing the game entirely."
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 08:45
#16
Maybe I'm unusual, but I've
Maybe I'm unusual, but I've never spent more than 1 hour per day playing a game the first week or two, even if I ended up eventually becoming a daily player and subscriber to that game for years. By the time I wanted to spend more than 1 hour a day, I recognize and accept the need to pay for the service I am using.
I think you are confusing your current desire, in retrospect, to have started off with more with the actual desires of new players at the time they are new. By the time you want more than you could get for free here, you should pay. I think a player that spends an hour enjoying a game then refuses either to pay to continue or to wait to play the next day is atypical and/or not a player who would ever pay, so they shouldn't be a major concern for a game company.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 09:56
#17
OOO are already aware that
OOO are already aware that new players need more of a taste than the standard mist capacity provides. They addressed this by providing a mist tank to completely refill a new player's mist energy whenever he chooses after orientation and reaching tier 2. Possibly a bit more would help get players hooked, I feel that around 400 energy total rather than 200 (initial energy + mist tank) would be good before reaching tier 2 and 200 rather than 100 (single mist tank) upon reaching tier 2.
Fri, 04/22/2011 - 10:03
#18
The typical "paying player"
The typical "paying player" is a 12 year old with mom's credit card from my understanding.
Huzzah!
Bumped and /signed.