Spiral Knights - Don't understand the massive complaining

Don't understand the massive complaining

40 replies [Last post]

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 22:45

Pdtopgun

I've been playing this game since it first popped up on Steam, and I have several dozen hours' worth of in-game time under my belt. Have a full four-star set of the basic Kozma gear (hush, I like 'em), and finally worked my way up to a Leviathan Blade just the other day. In all that time, I've never paid a cent for the game, and nothing has ever prompted me to make a post here until this new expansion. But it's for the complete opposite reason than most of the recent posts in here: for the life of me, I cannot figure out what is up with this crazy circle-hating.

Like, I feel as though many of the people in here just don't understand how this game finances itself. I've seen people claiming that, until now, every single bit of the game's content has been "free-to-play." But it hasn't. Maybe to you personally, but not in actuality. The only way you're able to craft any higher than a two-star recipe, or play more than a single tier run or so per day, or get your weapon slot upgrades, is because some other person paid to play, then decided to sell their CE to you. If they hadn't, you'd be stuck grinding hundreds of thousands of Crowns on a potential Auction House buy, and even then you'd be relying on someone else's whims. If all the CE players decided to, they could stop selling their stuff tomorrow, and anyone who didn't want to shell out money would be screwed.

The game would survive, I'd wager: you should be able to make more Crowns using 100 CE to actually run the Clockworks than you can by selling it. CE sales might dip somewhat, but other people might decide to start paying themselves, so maybe things even out. But anyone not willing to pay would have to kiss their game goodbye. Three Rings only makes money off F2P users by proxy, and while the system has obviously worked thus far, there's nothing stating that they shouldn't look for additional sources of income. After all, this game is a commercial product, not a charity, and if the devs don't make money, they can't keep developing new stuff, or even keep the servers running.

(Oh, and despite what some have been saying, all the game description states is that you don't need subscription fees to access any content, not that you can get EVERY LITTLE THING 4EVAR without paying a cent. The game's still as F2P as ever.)

So yeah, a measly $4 to support a game that's given me a ton of enjoyment? Gladly, and I'll happily do it again in the future. Paying for legitimate level content sure beats the hell out of paying for virtual currency, at least as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, I have to wonder if the people ragequitting over this have any general game payment experience...this is about as far from a scary wave of pay-only content as you get in the gaming world.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 22:50

Eldibs

I agree with you. I'm going

I agree with you. I'm going to copy+paste myself here, with regards to why you can't just buy the pack with CE outright from OOO...

The difference between paying for it with CE, and buying from another player with CE is subtle, but important. Let's look at both situations...

A) You buy it directly with CE. That means that either you or someone else bought the $4 or so worth of CE, and you turn it in to OOO for mission access. OOO makes $4 off CE, and $4 worth of CE disappears from the market.

B) You buy it from another player. That means either you or someone else bought the $4 worth of CE, and a second player bought the $4 DLC, and you swap it with them. OOO makes $8 off CE and the DLC purchases, and the amount of CE in the market stays the same.

In option B, OOO makes twice as much money for the transaction, and the CE market goes about unaffected. From a business standpoint, it just makes more sense.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 22:51

Heavy-Duty

...

They don't like it because it has been something they've wanted a long time, but now its restricted to payment alone. This $4 actually gives us more money than when buing CE. I like the update and got the pack immediately (mainly because I am strictly a slow sword user and saw the free item...). I love it, and no I am not kidding. I am just sad to see so many leave and have pity for those who cannot purchase this... (and for those who just leave). I just want something done so those players can stay.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 22:53

Jace-Jarak

First off: I agree with you.

First off: I agree with you. However there is reason for 'f2p' players to be upset.

I am sure its been said but: with ce even if someone pays, a f2p player can trade to a p2p player to get the same experience. Now there is no way for a f2p player to trade from what i understand thus far. That is the complaint and it is valid.

At the same time I simply view this as the same as any over game's dlc you pay for. Same deal. Its just not how SK has been thus far.

Is it upsetting? Yes. Is it unfair? No. Its par for any other normal game. SK has thus far just been friendlier to f2p people due to the ce trade system.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 23:26

Eldibs

F2P'ers can buy the game from

F2P'ers can buy the game from P2P'ers if they both have Steam, and Nick has stated they are looking into enabling it directly within the game, to help out people who don't have/want Steam.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 23:41

Asukalan

WHAT IS UNFAIR? Unfair is

WHAT IS UNFAIR?

Unfair is that they are forcing us to USE steam if we want it or either use $$$. Remember Sonic promo? NOTHING stopped them from relasing content "with purchase" and buyable ingame with CE.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 23:43

Knightrails

Probably because this

Probably because this approach is more profitable.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 23:44

Eldibs

Sigh... For the last time,

Sigh...

For the last time, they are looking into enabling the trade of Expansion Mission packs directly in the game, without having to use Steam. I think we can all agree that's something beneficial, just give them five minutes to work on it, all right?

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 23:48

Vallik

@ Asukalanforum

Steam is 1.5MB and takes minutes to install. Sorry, but you're being such a stubborn child.

Wed, 02/29/2012 - 23:55

Diamondshreddie

i dont have a problem with it

i really dont have a problem with the pay-only aspect, for this absolutely amazing dlc, including a wide variety of incredible rewards , but my only complaint is that... steam wallet isnt always reliable, and my parents dont like to spend moneys on games :1 ! so .. i guess ill try and search for a prepaid credit card :P lol

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 02:47

#10

Evilcats

The only thing more popular

The only thing more popular than playing a game is complaining about a game.

Evilcats 2012

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 02:52

#11

Dirt

They don't like it because it

They don't like it because it has been something they've wanted a long time, but now its restricted to payment alone.

What... have people been waiting on in the paid expansion? I can't think of a single thing that's been heavily anticipated in it.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 03:18

#12

Warioware

Well...

If you truly don't understand why people are complaining, I'll break it down for you.

People are used to the model of buying or trading for CE and using CE for content that the developers want to be premium - crafting past a certain point, unbinding, weapon slots, trinket slots, heat boosts, reviving many times, running out of mist and not wanting to wait, and anything else that I've forgotten. Now that there's significant content that cannot be purchased with CE, people are upset and voicing their opinions.

The solution of 'steam trading' isn't acceptable for many as you're at the mercy of players vs. having a standard cost in CE.

It's a shame too, as they were thinking of releasing it for CE, as evidenced by an early preview of it.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 03:20

#13

Sirenblue

If people are eagerly waiting for the paid expansion...

Then why the heck are some of them mad on its release?

/JackieChan

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 04:56

#14

Wuvvums

The real question is: will we

The real question is: will we be able to cross-client trade after they fix it? As in from client to steam, and steam to client?

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 06:11

#15

Cobaltstarfire

I'm annoyed because I bought

I'm annoyed because I bought CE with the intention of using it to be able to play the game. Now suddenly that CE is useless for the purpose which I bought it for. Don't assume that everyone is a F2P complaining they can't get something for free.

However I will keep playing, it just may be a while before I can do anything with the new content, being as I already spent what I've allotted myself on CE, and won't be able to spend again for a year or so. Oh well *shrug* hopefully interesting stuff that can be gotten with CE will come out in the future.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 06:28

#16

Asukalan

@VallikSteam is third party

@Vallik
Steam is third party application, where you have register, which collects your personal data. Its just unnesesary thing. I can play SK via official client, i dont need Steam for it. For me steam is same pointless thing like all those toolbars you have to delete/uncheck when installing an application.

Once linking your account to steam, you cant undo it. It means Steam problems = your problems.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 06:37

#17

Debianlinux

Than you, Cobaltstarfire. I

Than you, Cobaltstarfire.

I am P2P with a few thousand CE laying around that I pad good money for. Now I am being told that paying money for that alone is insufficient to play this game; I should now spend more money on another item that allows me to play this game.

I am however, patient to wait for the opportunity to use the CE I payed money for so that I can play this game.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 06:55

#18

Poopsie

@Eldibs

On option A and B, that's not always the case. CE-crown trade price rising could encourage people to buy more CE so they can have healthy amount of crown. So both options have their own pros and cons. Why people want to have lots of crowns? Featured Auction + UV-rolling punch.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:01

#19

God-King

@Asuka

Maybe Steam is unnecessary if you only use it to play Spiral Knights. Maybe.

Considering there's a variety of other uses for the software though, I don't see the problem. Voice chat, friends, community groups, deals on games, etc.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:09

#20

Wuvvums

It collects personal data?

It collects personal data? What doesn't these days? You'd really have to avoid most everything if you don't want your personal data collected.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:17

#21

Plutogold

What considers steam, if you

What considers steam, if you guys are playing only Spiral Knights, than fine, nobody forces you to change.

But I have Skyrim, Team Fortress 2, Portal 2, Orcs must die, etc etc and also my SK account is bound to steam.
I've never had problem with steam and for those who don't want to use a credit card, just use a "pay safe card" or a "paypal account" (if you don't know what it is, just use damn google)

Also come on guys, for 4 bucks you receive two 1* weapons, two 3*weapons and two 5* weapons, everything worth together 2020ce if you would craft them!!!
That's far the best deal I ever saw comparing to buy ce in order to craft these weapons, also the developers need money to feed their families.

P.S. Google collects also your data like other sites without knowing.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:22

#22

Wuvvums

Doesn't the i-phone or some

Doesn't the i-phone or some of the phones collect your data too, down to the very location of where you've been? And heck, Target collects your data when you go shopping. They've been known to pick out the changed shopping habits in pregnant ladies so they can send pamphlets to their door with deals on shopping for certain products. They ran an article about how Target could guess and find out you're pregnant even before your Dad knows.

In this day and age they're always trying to get our information, and you know, I'm kinda fine with that so long as it doesn't harm me or lead to identity theft.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:24

#23

Kanz

+1 Gamepie

I think that many people are upset because this is usually how games begin the slide into game that require you to pay to play the full game. It starts off with a trial run; a piece of DLC is released and then the company waits to see if enough people are buying it. Usually the trial succeedes, making precedent for there to be more DLC in the future. I know that I'm personally concerned that this game will eventually be similar to games like "Forsaken World" where a player eventually has to spend relatively large amounts of money in order to progress through the game (not really making it f2p at all).

I would certainly CONSIDER buying the expansion pack if it was tradeable in game. Many people have been buying this expansion like hot cakes so that their friends can play it with them. It shouldn't have to be like that. I honestly do hope that the sales for this DLC don't meet the expectations of OOO and Sega so that they do offer in-game trading of it, or maybe, just maybe *crosses fingers* the ability to buy it with CE (I would personally shell out money to buy the necessary CE for it, even if it was at an inflated price). While I don't expect this to happen, all I can do is remain hopeful. I will not be purchasing the DLC in the forseeable future, but no one should ever say "never".

-Kanz

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:40

#24

Saberyoko

+1 gamepie

You got all I want to say...
I think the way the SK is goin is bad...just like a trap, because they want first a lot of players, and then do a lot of additional payed contents and win easy money.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:46

#25

Nodocchi

"The solution of 'steam

@Gamepie
"The solution of 'steam trading' isn't acceptable for many as you're at the mercy of players vs. having a standard cost in CE."

I was not aware that you could buy CE at a fixed price and were not at the mercy of players in terms of prices for CE hahaha. I mean, if they do offer in-game trading of the expansion how would it be different from buying and selling CE?

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 08:51

#26

Yvanblo

Steam & Expansion DLC

Steam is great. Not sure why so many are hesitant to use it. I have bought many games on steam for 75% off or more!!! $15 games for $3.75? Yep. 4 packs of games for deep discounts on the holidays? Yep.

If you play more than one game, which you should consider, Steam can offer literally thousands of games. Most of these are P2P games, and are not free. Hate to break it to you, but there are not too many things in life that are free. Do you expect the rest stop on the freeway to provide you with a free Starbucks caramel macchiato when Starbucks released it? I don't think so. The rest stop still gives you free coffee, but if you want the good stuff, you have to pay for it.

Anyhow, until this release, I did not spend a single cent within SK. But when people started complaining and making noise about it not being fair, it made me want to buy it all the more, so I bought the expansion almost immediately! Now, having only played through the tier 1 playthrough, I don't have the good versions of the prize weapons, but even the 1 star bomb is amazing! Worth the money, and worth supporting the company. I never would have spent $4 to get these weapons, and I'm not sure I would/will spend $4 on CE. But for content, AND cool gear, AWESOME!

OOO, Keep up the good work, the new missions are fun, and challenging!

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 09:34

#27

Vallik

@ Asukalanforum

I'm sorry but now you're just coming off as paranoid. There really is no problem with linking your account with Steam, unless you honestly have a problem starting a game any other way than just clicking on an icon on your Desktop. Not to mention the other uses God-King pointed out.

This isn't me trying to convert you to Steam, however. I'm only trying to make a point that if this is your only complaint about accessing new content, it's a simple fix on your part. It's just a matter of if you want to stop making excuses to complain about new content.

Also to reiterate, Eldibs pointed it out and Nick has previously stated in another thread that OOO is currently looking into trading within game as well, for people who really want to make Steam an issue. So just muster some patience and comprehension of the matter before getting flustered about something this petty.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 09:58

#28

Warioware

@Nodocchi "I was not aware

@Nodocchi
"I was not aware that you could buy CE at a fixed price"

No fixed price in crowns but that doesn't matter. I'm thinking in terms of compensating OOO for their development time. $2.45 USD for 750 CE without any promotions or volume discounts. It's selling for $3.99 on steam (and hopefully the same for non-steam users) so that would make it cost 1222 CE rounding up using the most expensive rate for buying CE. Factoring out using 100 mist towards it, 1322 CE. Since you can't buy exactly 1322, let's bump it up to 1500 which you can get for $4.90. Or if they want to use a volume-discounted CE rate to do the calculation, fine, whatever, but why just abandon the CE payment structure completely? Sure, they can do whatever they want, it's their game, but they might face a reaction like the one that's currently enveloping most of the forum.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:03

#29

Asukalan

Haha yeah, patience, i have

Haha yeah, patience, i have seen this before "we are working on it", after next update "we are still working on it" after next update "we are still working on it" and so on, and so on, untill ppl forget.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:05

#30

Debianlinux

I changed my mind and paid

I changed my mind and paid up.

All the whining, moaning and self-serving attitudes displayed here convinced me. How ironic, no?

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:08

#31

Ufana

I tried to work up to that,

I tried to work up to that, but this time it just didn't happen. Did you use alcohol or other perseverance diminishing drugs?

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:36

#32

Vallik

@ Asukalanforum

Spiral Knights hasn't even been out for a year. For people to complain about them not getting out content fast enough is completely ignorant. It's equally disgusting for you do openly disregard how much effort it takes to organize, create and put together content you greedy children complain about the day it's out. You can't even sit back and appreciate what these people are doing for you. You're so self-absorbed about your needs and wants that you brush off the community as a whole. What OOO does with its games are not made to pander to people like you who can't even acknowledge the above; they're still working with different ways to draw in and keep new players. And who are you say how OOO develops their game? You obviously don't support them if you're complaining about a measly 4 bucks.

Take the blinder off and open your eyes. I'm not going to dignify your posts further.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:34

#33

Fauxhownd

New content takes months,

New content takes months, sometimes YEARS to come out with. The people expecting new dungeons and content every other week are completely unreasonable in their expectations.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:02

#34

Dancinjen

I didn't read every post in

I didn't read every post in this thread but I want to say I completely agree with the original post.

I also want to say you do NOT have to use steam to buy the game with real money. The pack is available to buy with money outside of steam. Currently, the game is only tradeable to people in steam. Nick has stated in another thread that they are talking and working on making thing tradeable/giftable within the client. Which means people who don't have steam could still purchase the packs with ce from someone else within the game.

Sure, go ahead rage and rage.

But let me tell you this, all the f2p players wouldn't have the option to even rage if it wasn't for p2p players supporting the game like we have.

I'm sorry things aren't being handed to you on a silver platter. Things aren't being handed to me on a silver platter, and I put money in the game. I know f2p players that have better gear than I do, and UVs and what not.... they got it all by grinding and merchanting.

The orginal post and I have the exact same thoughts and I completely support everything they just said up there.

Edit:

For those that are worried this game will go p2p model let me inform you about something. I have played three rings games since I was 13. I am now 23. I played puzzle pirates for many years. I was a beta tester in that game as well. Eventually they made the game subscription only before they opened it up to f2p. They had the same lay out as the one in this game. Poe in ypp is the same as crowns, and dubloons are the same as crystal energy. One big difference between that game and this one was in that game there is no equivalent to mist energy that recharges every day. We had to have badges to have certain benefits in the game. The clothes, badges, and weapons would degrade after so many days. I loved that game. When I was younger I couldn't put RL money in the game so I was completely f2p. They had subscription servers and then they had f2p servers.

If they work this model into subscription only I will tell you that they will probably have their own server, while free players had there own server. The markets would be very different. The set up would be different. I don't foresee this game going that way. I think they have set up this game with the intention of it never being a subscription game.

Now, let me tell you something about the pack. Yes, it has new monsters that aren't found anywhere else... AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME. I am sure that these monsters and similar levels will be released in the future for people to play. You really aren't missing out on all that much. Yeah, the hammer is nice. I'm not convinced on the bomb yet. The mask is tradeable, and as they become more frequent the price for them just might drop. So, sit tight you too will get to experience these new gremlins and what not, soon, is my guess. Missions are still so new, and we still don't know how they will effect the economy in time. Don't write this off just yet. Don't get your undies in a bunch. :p

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:35

#35

Yotian

Pretty new to this game, but

Pretty new to this game, but here are my 2 cents.

1. I LOVE Spiral Knights. Kudos to the dev team for making something so fun and oldschool/arcade style, yet with a depth of tactics and positioning. BRAVO!

2. I do not use steam because I dont have time to play many games. Right now, I haven't played through the original game all the way, so the expansion isn't that much of an issue, but I'm not looking forward to having to buy it off of steam.

3. Companies need money to stay funded. I hope Nick and the team do what it takes from a business standpoint to keep the game going, and so I have no problem with them using steam. I've only spent 15 bucks so far, but I have no problem spending more to support a game that I play. I would, however, love an additional way to download the expansion in the client instead of having to install steam just for SKs.

Thanks for the enjoyable game, and keep up the good work!

PS- You really need to develop a player-based level creator in the next expansion! How cool would that be for players to make their own levels to test their friends on! :D

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 10:40

#36

Softhead

Oh well,

F2P until I am old enough to get a credit card.

Miffed and jealous(Holding it in!)

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:08

#37

Dancinjen

Btw. For those that are

Btw.

For those that are young and don't have a credit card there is a way to spend money in the game without having a credit card.

Many supermarket, gas stations, or grocery stores have cards that you can put cash money on and they act as a kind of debit card. Once you run out you run out. Many people use these as gift cards for birthdays, but you can just get one to put money on for yourself. They have visa, mastercard, and uuh don't know. all kinds of different ones. Make sure to read the back because they might have some sort of fee for everytime you spend it. So it's best to make a one time purchase with them. Once you run out of money on them all you have to do is put money back on. You donn't have to get a new one. It doesn't require your personal information to get it, i do believe. So, you aren't doing anything to release your info.

Just make sure that you're spending responsibly, and with the approval of your parents.

Here is a link to the visa prepaid cards and how they work if anyone is interested.

http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/prepaid/gift_card_how.html

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:09

#38

Softhead

Oh god...

I need to check in my bourogh( in London).

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:17

#39

Thuxner

This is only different in

This is only different in practice than a subscribed game like World of Warcraft making an expansion that you have to shell out more of your money to Blizzard for. I think the problem here that most people do not realize is, nothing is free. OOO has to make money to upkeep their servers for this game, and pay THEIR employees. As a person who has played quite a few Free-to-Play MMOs, from experience I can say Spiral Knights is a lot better than most games. Am I concerned this will set a precedent for more paid content than free content? A bit. But you know what the problem is? Free MMOs in general. Because people don't go in expecting a need to pay, it's that much more shocking when it comes up that there are things they can't access without real currency. I am actually impressed by OOO's model for Spiral Knights, and think it's an interesting policy.

The only one thing I'm particularly worried about is if the Expansion mission levels have a drastically better crown return than gates. But I doubt that'll be an issue, and I could just be worried over nothing because I'm not an economist or anything.

Also, on Steam, seriously? If you don't want your information gathered go live in the woods. We're coming to an age where pretty much anything you do in the modern world will have a chance of your information being polled, and it's your own responsibility to pay attention to those things. I happen to like Steam. Am I worried about being shut out of my own games if it ever goes out? Maybe, but I'm taking that risk. If you want to moan about OOO taking precedence for Steam, maybe wait until they actually fail to deliver for non-Steam clients a while instead of acting like you can divine the future.

Thu, 03/01/2012 - 11:23

#40

Loest

I really don't mind paying

I really don't mind paying four bucks for the additional content. I did, it's been a lot of fun, and I'm glad I did it.

However, I really, really don't understand why you can't buy the expansion with CE. I can't see any legitimate reason for it to have been implemented the way it was, and I think it should change. It won't affect me, 'cause I use steam and I already bought it, but I think it would be better for everyone--for the community as a whole--if you could purchase expansions with CE. That way, F2P players could let P2P players buy them access to new content like they have been up until now and people who don't use steam won't feel so completely ignored.

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Don't understand the massive complaining