Crownsinks
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 08:23
Hello all!
For those who do not know what a crownsink is, it is essentially a way to sieve crowns out of the game so that their value in relation to CE stays roughly lower. Having more crownsinks is important as it keeps the price of 100 CE in crowns at a relatively stable rate so that new players can still reach endgame without having to fork out real money if they do not want to.
I have been a F2P player for forever now and I would still like CE to be accessible to everyone so that the community can continue growing. With the introduction of FSC missions, the supply of crowns entering the economy is HUGE and the market is going to experience a large inflation pretty soon. 2012, anyone?
Background: The prices of CE in CR have been rising constantly over time and the only way OOO has been keeping them down is through CE promotions, and AH 10% tax rate, along with featured auctions. However the value of crowns has still been decreasing a lot.
In economics terms, the supply of CE has been rising with the cheaper CE promotions, but now with the (relatively larger) influx of crowns into the economy, first by the jelly arena mission, now by the FSC mission, the rate of increase of supply of CE is less than the rate of increase of CR. Hence, the value of CE appreciates in relation to the value of CR and causes the demand of CE to rise, resulting in a stronger CE vis-à-vis the CR.
Therefore, in order to make sure the market is stabilized at about the current rate, it would be great to remove the amount of crowns in the economy.
Suggestions:
1) Increase the cost of participating in PVP games. Perhaps T1 LD can stay at 200 cr per game, while T2 and T3 are increased to 300 and 400 each. I'm pretty sure endgame players have no objections to paying a few extra crowns for the games and this will also incite poorer players(like me) to play T1 Lockdown (finally I can get a game without waiting for forever)
2) Like the normal arcade, make each mission at its respective stratum cost 200/500 cr to go down to, depending on whether it is T2/3.
3) Tax for normal trading. I know other MMOs like Maplestory (which has ultimate super mega hyperinflation) adopts this method and the amount taxed scales in relation to the amount traded. A 5% cut or so from each trade seems pretty reasonable to me. Taxing CE also seems plausible and also serves to encourage people to buy more CE. Hint hint, hint hint.
This suggestion is generally not approved of by the community.
4) Guild hall decorations/guild hall dungeons. Okay I must admit I have never been in a guild before despite being pretty much 5* already. However, I have read several other forum threads on this, and think that they are brilliant ideas. MMOs like The Kingdom of Loathing (which survive solely on donations, hear, hear!) have guild dungeons, guild wars and guild decorations which serve to reduce the amount of meat (KoL's currency) in the economy.
5) Reduce the crown gain from the arena mission and the FSC mission. I think this speaks for itself.
OR
Limit the number of times one can go down these missions to X number of times a day.
6) Revive with cr instead of energy. Maybe one can start off at 200 cr, then increase exponentially as it already does for energy.
100> 200> 500 for T1
200 > 500 > 1000 for T2
1000 > 2000 > 4000 for T3
and so on.
7) Alternate(or additional) BRIBE KING KROGMO bar using crowns instead. Extra Krogmo coins for everyone!
8) Suggested by Diamondshreddie, customization features that cost cr such as eye shapes, or armor dyes
9) Make recipes usable only X number of times, forcing people to re-buy them in a while. Suggested by Scrolax
10) Remove token rewards from boss missions. (Oh God Why)
11) Crown cost to rename items. Could range from really low, to huge amounts if nametags are to be sold as featured auctions.
Although these suggestions seem to be rather trivial, when a few extra hundred crowns are removed each time a person plays a LD game, every little thing serves to stabilize the economy.
Thanks for reading this lengthy suggestion post! :D
Any comments would be welcome.
Thank you!
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 08:52
#2
Re: Juances
You are right in saying that if you want to gift stuff, then nothing will be taxed. After all, in real life your postman doesn't look through your mail and take a few letters from it, that's what stamps are for. (Oh my God I'm old and still use letters what is this paper you speak of)
If you trade by mail, or crown by crown, say he has a CTR high divine avenger which you want to buy, then by all means you can bypass the crown tax but who is to say he can't take your money and run? If you give half the money first, and that bypasses the tax, he can just take it and run.
Likewise, if you are the seller, and you pass him the DA and he passes you half the money first, he can run too and he just bought a good DA for a horrendously cheap price.
It boils down to the trust between the buyer and the seller. Sure, you can report him and he can be banned but your money is gone for good. Are you willing to take that risk?
No system is perfect but little steps can be made towards solving a problem.
Trades with no crowns involve obviously have no taxes, besides, its not really possible to tax a UV-ed item.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 09:38
#3
Well ...
i dunno bout you guys, but i agree woth everything said here :1,
besides there already is a small CR fee for sending mail .
but ALSO!
add more customization features that cost cr, keep revive by CE though, but i like the bribe krogmo with cr ;) it makes more sense!!
customization features like EYE SHAPES and ARMOR DYES , that cost crowns from vatel could very well serve a great purpose toward the economy!
im sure theres many other ideas that could be implemented, i mean crafting items and everything is a huge Cr sink, but also a big CE sink .___.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 10:00
#4
Customisation features as
Customisation features as crown sink: YES
Fees and taxes: NO
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 13:26
#5
I think this would make things worse
The one s who strugle the most with ce are the new players.
Reducing the amount of achievable crowns in FSC wouldn't drop the prices that much it just make t harder to get ce as well as buying recipes.
Charging some cr would be worse for new players in the sense that some mission already pay poorly.
Charging more for lock down would just limit the amount of time we can play it.
The idea of a crownsink is good but it needs to be bigger for example the best crownsinks are the featured auctions, then punch's uv's and lastly valets supplies for missions.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 18:11
#6
O:
"Reducing the amount of achievable crowns in FSC wouldn't drop the prices that much it just make t harder to get ce as well as buying recipes. "
You are right in the sense that it would be harder to buy recipes if the amount of crowns in the market are reduced.
But crippling the crown gain in FSC would almost certainly make the prices of CE in CR drop, and that is what's good for new players.
Not too sure if you understood the economic theory which I mentioned, but:
Hypothetically speaking,
If 500 people go to FSC daily, and make 12k per run, and spend all of this money on a fixed 100000 CE, then the value of 100 CE would be:
500x12000x100/100000 = 6000 cr
On the other hand, if the crown gain from FSC is at 8k, (which it was pre-patch), the math would be:
500x8000x100/100000 = 4000 which is a pretty large drop.
I know the market doesn't work this way but its just a simple illustration.
"Charging some cr would be worse for new players in the sense that some mission already pay poorly."
New players used to pay 200 cr to go down to T2 anyway. It makes no difference now. Besides, everything is scaled depending on whether you are going down T1, T2 or T3 missions. I understand that the crown gain from each mission can be pretty poor since you do not make as much for the 3 levels, as opposed to the entire 8 levels of a usual T2 level, so I have to agree with you there.
"Charging more for lock down would just limit the amount of time we can play it."
Uhm, and then..?
"The idea of a crownsink is good but it needs to be bigger for example the best crownsinks are the featured auctions, then punch's uv's and lastly valets supplies for missions."
The "best" crownsinks are still failing, sadly, as prices of CE have been increasing steadily, hence the need for more crownsinks.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 18:53
#7
ehehehe
Veacon is completely right , we need better crownsinks, but we also need relatively AFFORDABLE crownsinks XD
like... 20-30k for a simple cosmetic , or something
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 19:07
#8
+1
I agree with everything but the tax normal trading. maybe instead of a trading tax from depending on how much u trade how 100cr (that's how much it costs to send items, crowns, ce, etc by mail).
mainly because sometimes people borrow money and it could be a large amount. i dont wanna have to go earn 100k cr to pay back my friend and have to go earn another 10k for the tax,
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 19:13
#9
@veacon
Before I answer to you post above let me see if i understand you concept of what you mention the solution is to reduce the amount crowns available in the market. Am I right or wrong on this.
"the value of crowns has still been decreasing a lot."
The value of cr hasn't dropped the value of ce has just increase. If cr lost it value recipes would also cost more. CE is like the gold in a video game except it actually beneficial. The value of ce has increase for the following reasons (some which you may have mentioned):
- the new found simplicity of gaining crowns (which is due to mission mode arena's and fsc and even elevator passes)
- CE sinks (unbinding fee's being the worse and then silver & shadow keys , finally upgrades being the least damaging)
- the competition to get ce asap and every character putting up a hire offer (we're all to blame for this)
- lastly upgrading to new gear (this one can't be helped though)
CE value depend on it scarcity in the same way gold does that's why its value drop after any big sale event. However I'm hoping some thing is done so that ce doesn't become just like gold in which the price goes up ten fold. Scary thing is I looked at how the prices of gold have gone up and it looks just like the rate of ce.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 20:16
#10
@Scrolax
I do mean that the value of crowns has been decreasing. I do not mean that 1 crown becomes 0.9 crowns, or something. I mean that the relative value in relation to CE has been decreasing. You are right in the sense that the value of CE has been rising, but it is also true that the value of CR has been dropping. However, no matter the definition, the solutions are still the same.
One of the solutions is to reduce the number of crowns in the market.
Another solution is to increase the supply of CE on the market.
OOO has been creating incentives for people to buy more CE, through various promotions, and that serves the company well as they are making more money. However it is not enough so it is also necessary for them to adopt crownsinks.
"The value of cr hasn't dropped the value of ce has just increase."
Sadly, in real life, everything is relative. Just a quick question, do you know what is inflation?
QUICK LESSON FROM DUCKTALES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_LWQQrpSc4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_Zimbabwe
Taking for example the real life Zimbabwean inflation crisis, when a huge number of people lost their jobs, the government responded by printing more money . This is exactly equal to more crowns entering the market, which is what the FSC mission is currently doing.
As a result of this, since everyone had 100 BILLION DOLLARS accessible to them, the price of rice, meat, or other vegetables will drastically increase, as everyone can afford a few dollars since they have so much money. It is not that the value of rice/meat/vegetables are increasing, it is because the value of Zimbabwean dollars is decreasing. Anyone elsewhere can still buy these foods with a few dollars in other currencies, but only in Zimbabwe they cost several billion dollars.
HI GUYS I'M JUST PAYING FOR MY LUNCH YO.
Again, in economics terms:
Since there has been an increase in supply of CR, the ability and willingness for people to buy CE has increased, hence the demand for CE will increase.
As a result, there is a rightwards shift in the demand (for CE) curve, from D1 to D2, which increases the equilibrium price, from P1 to P2.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 22:34
#11
@veacon
The price of crowns cannot change it is the natural unit of money in the game. It may seem that the value of crowns maybe dropping but that is only in one perspective. The example you are using to imply that the value of crowns have has dropped is in comparing to ce.
For example when i start play on a daily basis the value of ce was 3600 and stably stayed near that value for about 2 to three weeks. The current price of ce is almost at 7000 at an instant trade (since yesterday at least). In this point of view the value of cr has decrease however this is only when comparing it to on available item can bought with cr.
It could also be said that the price of cr has increased if you compare it to wolver coats. Around the time I started play I would sell wolver coat with mist energy and the would sell for 3000 up to 3500 (the buy price i usually left for them) and they didn't even have a uv. However, he last wolver coat i sold (two days ago) sold for 1300 and it had low curse uv.
Did the value of the crown increase no it didn't and for the following reasons.
-When i started playing there was a larger market for wolver coats however after a while more people started to produce them. With the mass production of wolver coat the ratio between wolver coats and player buying them changed. In other words wolver coat became less scarce and when some thing become less scarce it causes the value to drop.
now you may want to argue that crowns have become less scarce so therefore the value has dropped however it does work that way with crowns. Crowns maybe a currency just like ce how ever there is one major difference between ce and cr the fact that cr is the natural unit of value in the game. Every piece of merchandise in the game is has its worth in cr as well in ce but its value must be translated in crowns first especially when it come to sell thing for ce.
For example if I want to sell a 5 star recipe in ce first I check how much do people value it in cr at the AH then I look at how much ce is valued in cr. Lets say that ce is worth 10 cr per every unit of one (i wish it was like this), then a recipe would be worth 25,000 cr and 2500 ce. lets say the value of ce double, the recipe would still be worth 25,000 in cr but it would be worth 1250ce. The value of ce increased but the value of cr remained the same.
This is basically supply and demand, the value of ce is worth whatever people chose to buy or sell it for which is why ce has two values.
Your example of the Zimbabwean inflation crisis is perfect example of how the value of money can drop. Same thing happened in Germany after World war one when the currency wasn't worth the paper it was printed on however this can only happen in a world where multiple currency exist and the value of merchandise is not predetermined by a select group of individual.
In the real world there is multiple currencies in the world and the value of its currency depend on how much resource they have pr how much the produce and sell to the other markets in this world.
It is not exactly the same way in spiral knight where we have control over only the value of certain object under certain condition which are controlled by the player market. In spiral knight the value of a recipe 5 star is 25000 cr, the value of 1 uv is 20,000 cr and the value to change your armor's color is 50,000 cr. These values are controlled by Administration and we can only heighten it worth in order to make profit.
We are fortunate and unfortunate to have control of the value of ce. One in the sense that Administration can't decide to over price it permanently like they did with making a two star weapon worth 7500 cr if you get it from the bazaar. However since the value of ce is in our power its value is unstable depending on supply and demand since we cannot make it in game.
Now on to more important matter, reducing the amount of cr available is the best way to make ce worth less cr than it is now, but its not going to help anyone in the player base community. let me use an example in an extreme scenario:
Let say the average tier one run give you 4000cr, a tier 2 gives you 6000 and tier 3 gives you 8000. Now let ce how much cr we get for our mist for we get per level on average (I am aware that the the second stratum pay a lot than the first in any tier especially in arena but let say that every level pays the same for the sake of this example). Tier 1 gives you 666 cr per depth that you do, tier 2 gives 750 per depth and tier three gives you 888cr. The final pay out would be 6660 for tier 1, 7500 for tier 2 and 8880 for tier 3.
Now lets say we divide the pay out of each tier by 10 order to reduce the amount of crowns in the market. The following pay out would become 666, 750 and 888. With the sudden decrease in crowns the value of every thing controlled by players would drop and if ce dropped at the same rate as the crown it would sell for 700cr there for worthless crowns.
Now the average player can by ce at least once a day if there tier 2 and if the following changes wher e to be made they would still be buy ce at leat once a day so in the end no change from what it was before. However items that are sold buy npc's would still be worth the same amount so what happens then? The ending result would be worse than what is at the present time.
So in a nut shell the value of ce would drop but it would be proportional to what it is now.
Now the best solution is like you said to provide crowns sinks but one that will not effect the broke knights that are starting out that are f2p.
Some crown sinks that could be considered change the cost of unbinding a weapon to cr.
Lastly to answer your question, yes I know what inflation is.
Now i have on favor to ask... some one slap me for right this instead of focusing on my homework essay.
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 22:43
#12
@Scrolax:
I must be misunderstanding you..because what you just wrote is contradictory to itself.
You just made several examples of how an inflation or mass-production of a specific items causes it to become less valuable, and you argue that the price of Crowns hasn't changed?
If you're looking at it from the perspective of: "Everything ELSE has changed, just not crowns", then although it's a different perspective, it's essentially the same thing.
I think I get what you're saying, but both perspectives really end with the same result: A change of the total amount of crowns in the game will make CE prices change accordingly.
*Slaps*
You can just consider the above post your essay.
~Sev
Sat, 03/10/2012 - 23:33
#13
Re: Scrolax
I am a second-year economics student. I know my supply and demand, and I have already mentioned several times that the value of CR does not change, it only changes relative in value to CE. If you want to say that it is the value of CE that changes with regards to the value of CR, it is more or less the same thing but the solutions are still the same.
Your wolver coat and recipe examples are very basic supply and demand theories. Moving on.
"...however this can only happen in a world where multiple currency exist and the value of merchandise is not predetermined by a select group of individual. "
While many people believe that SK only has CE and CR in its market, it is not true. I have traded CR, CE and even various 2* items with TF2 players for their metals, hats and weapons. While you are right to say that metals, hats and weapons are not actual currency they still function as such and there is a huge market out there for weapons and hats in terms of metals.
"now you may want to argue that crowns have become less scarce so therefore the value has dropped however it does work that way with crowns. "
I think you mean "does not."
"For example if I want to sell a 5 star recipe in ce first I check how much do people value it in cr at the AH then I look at how much ce is valued in cr. Lets say that ce is worth 10 cr per every unit of one (i wish it was like this), then a recipe would be worth 25,000 cr and 2500 ce. lets say the value of ce double, the recipe would still be worth 25,000 in cr but it would be worth 1250ce. The value of ce increased but the value of cr remained the same."
You are absolutely right in saying that the price of certain items are fixed in crowns, such as recipes, and UVs, and whatnot. Let me give you a counter example. I can buy a 5* item in my supply depot for 3.5k CE. At the current rate, 100 ce is worth 7k crowns. If, by some miracle, the relative value of crowns doubles, 100 ce will be worth 3.5k crowns and that 5* item will now cost me 122.5k cr, instead of the original 245k cr.
By the very fact that items have now been fixed to a pegged CE price, your argument is completely invalid.
But you are right, we should be ignoring the nitty gritty details of the problem's premises and deal with the problem itself.
What you are advocating (I am guessing here) is for the amount of crowns entering the market to be huge, and hence the ease of which one can buy fixed price items, such as recipes and UVs, will be made easier for the general population. Following that, the value of CE will also increase in terms of crowns, but since everyone can get crowns easier, there is not much difference.
I agree, but at the same time there should still be a degree of difficulty for players to advance from 2* to 5*.
Your example is extreme, indeed, and let me give you an extreme example on the other end. Akin to the Zimbabwean hyperinflation, people would be scared of holding on to crowns any more since the supply of crowns into the market is huge and perhaps you could buy 10ce with 1000 cr today, but tomorrow you could only buy 1ce with 1000 cr. In the end, people will hold on to CE, or items (or TF2 metals) as this is the only stable value that still remains. When the economy is unstable, it brings about a lot more negative externalities such as widespread panic, which did happen during WWII.
What you also fail to see here is that the best crown making places, FSC missions, etc, are open to only the T3 players. If the amount of CR in T3 missions stay unreduced, the sad fact is that the income inequality between the rich players and the poor players will widen. The rich will continually buy CE with their huge amounts of crowns, and this will raise CE prices, while the poor, who cannot make as much CR, will have to suffer even more.
Most of the crownsinks that I have suggested target the rich people of the economy. What Warren Buffet advocates is for the rich to be taxed even more. The poor people will not have to work twice as hard to make what the rich people can make in a few hours. A T3 player can just farm FSC once and spend 50 ME and earn 12k, while a poorer player has to play Rise and Fall 4 times to match what the T3 player can because he does not have access to FSC.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/01/warren-buffett-and-his-secr...
Tax the 1%.
PS I also have to do my economics essay. Someone slap me too.
PPS Frocus, that is true, and it is one of the flaws of a tax system. Ah well can't have everything good right?
Sun, 03/11/2012 - 00:14
#14
@severage
I wish it was my essay then id be done with my last major assignment. and thank you for the slap feel free to slap every time i post because i ma most likely procrastinating.
Let e summarize what im trying to get at without my excessive rambling. Less cr fixes nothing proportionally. Crownsinks are only good if you place them in the right place (being where the rich class of sk is at, placing it at the noob level fixes nothing). Lastly the value of cr never changes the value of every thing else does.
Personally the best solution that is most likely to happens is one the benefits the consumer (the players) and provider (administration).
I never thought there would be so much economic in this game when i started playing.
EDIT: The new supply depot doesn't make my argument invalid for the sense that all item had there value in crowns first. here are there values in ce and cr:
1* 3000cr or 65 ce (46cr per 1 ce)
2* 7500cr or 150 ce (50cr per 1 ce)
3* 35000cr or 500 ce (70cr per 1 ce)
4*100000cr or 1600 ce (62cr per 1 ce)
5*350000cr or 3500 ce (100cr per 1 ce)
... wow there no actual pattern... well it only suppose to show that they still have an absurd price in ce and cr.
Second point decreasing the amount of cr gained would be a very short fix because they can simply move on to the next highest paying levels (which is either arenas or the RJP) and if you try to limit those levels to you make it harder for tier two players, so limiting a certain level can work because there are alternatives.
Lastly the suggestion you give also target the poor player such as those who play tier 3 lockdown. Im tier three lockdown and I suck so only play when I need the coins so increase the cost would be harsher on middle class player such as myself. The krogmo coin thing maybe good and bad since alot of player fll it up using mist rather than ce.
One more thing. Are you a college student?
Sun, 03/11/2012 - 00:28
#15
Yep I am a college student
The point of decreasing FSC crown gain was to make sure that the higher level players do not have such a comparative advantage in obtaining cr as opposed to the middle tier players. Sure they can move on to arena levels but that would decrease the amount of crowns in the economy, since the arena levels do not pay as much as FSC, which is what I have been advocating. This limits the advantage the really rich players have over the middle and lower tier players.
If you are T3 lockdown, you can easily change to T1 lockdown which gives the same amount of krogmo coins. I do this myself. I did mention that only t2 and t3 lockdown should have an increase in participation fee anyway. Alternatively blast network is a great substitute and gives more coins too. I myself am a middle class player and I would not object to paying a bit extra for my LD games.
Hmm it is true that a lot of players fill up BRIBE KING KROGMO BAR with mist rather than CE, so I do think that an additional bar should be introduced so you now can BRIBE KING KROGMO with mist and cr, too, so on one hand it serves as a crownsink and on the other also allows more people to earn more krogmo coins.
Sun, 03/11/2012 - 00:38
#16
College student? can I ask a question that not thread related
How much English home work do you get in you first year of college? (if applicable)
Sun, 03/11/2012 - 04:22
#17
I haven't taken English as a subject for some years now
"The new supply depot doesn't make my argument invalid for the sense that all item had there value in crowns first. here are there values in ce and cr:"
Your usage of 'first' is wrong here. Both of them have a fixed value of CE and CR; they came out at the same time. In this scenario, since the values of CE are pegged to something, would you buy a 5* item in CE or crowns? I would buy it in CE, since at the current equilibrium exchange rate, it is cheaper for me to buy 3.5k CE in CR from the market, then buy the item.
So is it the value of CE which has changed in relation to crowns, or the value of crowns which has changed in relation to CE? There are many things which have a fixed energy price, and the value of crowns changes around it, like trinket slot upgrades and weapon slot upgrades.
Severage is right in saying that they are more or less similar to each other.
I also take it you agree with all of my arguments regarding the crownsinks themselves now, since you haven't rebutted anything I have said (or have rebutted you for it).
By the way, the definition of 'college' varies across countries so the amount of homework I got in my first year of college is probably different from the amount of homework you are getting since we probably started our first year of college at a different age.
But if you have to know, I never did any English homework. >:D
Sun, 03/11/2012 - 15:21
#18
Crownsinks are good
In general crownsinks are better than ce sinks so I can't argue with your intention about wanting to adding new ways to spend crowns. However crownsinks are only a temporary fix. For example when punch was added last year in july he created a major crownsink for the wealth players and since in the end the crowns get destroyed from the market. However eventually player get the uv's they want and start purchasing less uvs from punch, its still a good crownsink but its used less than what it was before.
There are some crownsinks that agree with like:
-Making guild hall improvement that are worth cr instead of ce
-And alternate bribing bar for king Krogmo
The ones I disagree with:
-The increased cost of tier 3 lock down, let me say it again lots of tier 3 players are pretty much broke
-Reviving costing cr instead of ce, 1000cr is a bit high for a revive and it would probably just discourage revives (especially since mist was mainly used in -the first place.
Things I think are impossible or wouldn't work:
-Reducing the amount of crowns you get from fsc runs, I think the only reason it pays a lot of crowns is because there's a large amount of enemies and as i said before they'll just move on to the next best paying mission. Limiting them may or my not work.
The reason I asked you about English home work is because I have been comparing the amount of home work I get from my High school AP english literature class however I haven't gotten enough information to create a conclusion.
Sun, 03/11/2012 - 17:40
#19
No taxation without
No taxation without representation!!! but as for pretty much everything else:yes.we need more crownsinks.the ce prices keep getting higher and higher,and as a mostly f2p'er,the high ce prices are making it harder than it already was to obtain the ce to craft my 5 star recipes.we need crownsinks!!!
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 06:48
#20
Taxes
"The ones I disagree with:
-The increased cost of tier 3 lock down, let me say it again lots of tier 3 players are pretty much broke"
I already mentioned that you can play T1 lockdown if T3 lockdown is too expensive. Besides, if you are poor, like me, you'll tend to get run over by all the penta-heart pendant barbarous thorn blade skolver strikers when you play. Another alternative, play blast network. Everything's fair there!
"-Reducing the amount of crowns you get from fsc runs, I think the only reason it pays a lot of crowns is because there's a large amount of enemies and as i said before they'll just move on to the next best paying mission. Limiting them may or my not work."
Its not reduce the amount of crowns from FSC runs, its reduce the amount of crowns from FSC missions. The FSC mission payout is significantly larger than the usual FSC T3 run, or so I heard. The solution is not to reduce the number of enemies, it is to reduce the amount of crowns (on average) that the enemies drop.
I think you do not understand me when I say the crown gain from FSC is relatively larger than the crown gain from the next best paying alternative. Even if the T3 players move on the the next best paying mission, by virtue of the fact that it is the next best paying mission, the total amount of crowns in the economy will be reduced.
Total amount of crowns in the economy reduced, ability of people to buy CE is reduced. Ceteris paribus, demand for CE falls, causing a drop in CE price.
Will update the first post with suggestions from everyone. Thanks for all your feedback so far!
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 14:46
#21
@Veacon:
" you'll tend to get run over by all the penta-heart pendant barbarous thorn blade skolver strikers when you play. Another alternative, play blast network. Everything's fair there!"
Eh, I play without pentas, but I do use Skolver so I suppose I at least have some sort of advantage...
The problem with Blast Network is if your internet isn't absolutely perfect (OR anyone else's isn't), the slightest amount of lag will pull you into a bomb-trap (that is to say, a bomb on each side of you). I used to play BN when I hated LD, but I eventually got over it because there are like 10 regulars who play BN, and 100 that play LD.
Increasing the cost to play T3 LD is a good idea to me. The amount of crowns increased to an individual is almost negligible, but the total crowns sunk into the game after a day's work would be increased dramatically.
The FSC Mission gives out ridiculous amounts of Crowns, which is why I'm playing it all I can before they patch it. I'm almost positive they'll patch it soon, its crown output is outrageous. Using 50 CE to complete the Mission (Including boss), you make enough crowns each run to purchase somewhere around 170 CE, not including selling the boss-token items, which is another 3K/run approximately.
I think, though I'm not positive, that the normal FSC gives like 7,000 crowns a run, as opposed to 11,500? Not sure about that number though.
~Sev
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 15:26
#22
Shadow Keys buyable for an
Shadow Keys buyable for an obscene sum of crowns would really help suck crowns out of the game, and possibly keep the price of energy stable. The alternate bribing bar is an excellent idea. I certainly agree with more costly LD for T2 and T3, and wouldn't be opposed to more Featured Auctions and CE Promotions.
Or there could be a crown cost for item naming, which has a whole thread on it at http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/32938. 200 crowns to name your CTR Very High Nitronome "Party Killer" is so worth the cost. Now imagine everyone doing it on all of their items.
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 15:32
#23
It would be great if we could
It would be great if we could bribe krogmo with crowns instead of energy. How about the system looks at the lowest price for CE on the market, and to add 1 bar to bribe him it costs 1/100 of that. Example: Price for 100 ce is 7500 cr, so to add 1 bar to bribe krogmo it costs 75 cr. I would totally bribe krogmo all the time if they had this.
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 16:59
#24
What would happen if we
What would happen if we changed Vise's unbinding fee into crowns? Or just a part of it.
We would be creating an cr sink and we would have a reason to use vise again since the supply depot prices are cheaper than the fees.
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 17:06
#25
@Heste:
That's actually a great idea, though that does kind of put a set price on crowns.
The only reason to use Vise now is if you're selling UV'd items.
~Sev
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 21:02
#26
One thought
I greatly agree with changing the unbinding cost to crowns especial since it is on of the major ce sinks used by richer players.
Now time to final put some input rather than arguments, Here are my idea's for some crown sinks
Quick and simple ones (that require no new content)
-make recipes break after a certain amount of uses, thus rebuffing the recipe market and destroys more crowns since you need to buy the recipes from Basil (this one a little extreme though).
-Make the hall of heroes five star recipes more expensive than that of Basil's. Might encourage the recipe market again for certain recipes.
Ideas that require new content:
-Make some new costumes (like a tier 2 mender's costume) and new swords/guns/shield (maybe add the trojan's sword and shield) that will be available via featured auction.
... or we can get on every gunners bad side and bullets that you have to purchase in order to use a gun (be for any one else comment I am being sarcastic).
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 20:44
#27
@Scrolax:
" or we can get on every gunners bad side and bullets that you have to purchase in order to use a gun."
Rather, almost every player's bad side, since almost nobody uses exclusively one class of weapons.
If we did this, we'd need a Durability for swords, and ammo for guns/bombs.
If you added ammo to guns and nothing else (Especially since bombs explode), people would rage like no tomorrow.
~Sev
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 21:01
#28
If there is on thing i hate about internet posting
People can't detect sarcasm as easily (i know i can't), funny though I expected you to be the first to post in reply.
I'll add sarcasm to the older post.
Mon, 03/12/2012 - 21:09
#29
@Scrolax:
Erm...not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing..but okay.
Sarcasm is difficult to pick up on the internet, unless it's blatantly obvious.
I sort of suspected it was, but I posted just in case...I've been surprised before like "That was sarcasm right?" "Nope."..
~Sev
Tue, 03/13/2012 - 02:56
#30
For a limited time, 25% off
For a limited time, 25% off punch!
Tue, 03/13/2012 - 03:50
#31
Great ideas for crownsinks so
Great ideas for crownsinks so far:
- Customised Eyes Shapes (sold by Vatel)
- Guildhall decorations/customisation/themes (suggested so many times before)
- Krogmo Bribes (unlikely to happen I suppose)
- Vise Unbinding (unlikely to happen I suppose)
Other suggestions for crownsinks:
- Portraits (similar to the ones in Puzzle Pirates)
- Customised Guild Crests (similar to the ones in Bang Howdy)
Bad ideas:
- Trade taxes
Tue, 03/13/2012 - 07:45
#32
So many replies
@Severage
IT'S ALWAYS FAIR TO ME BECAUSE MY INTERNET IS THE ONE SUCKING! HAHAHAHA oh who am I kidding I lose all the time.
The last time I went on a proper FSC run, I do believe I earned about mid 8k? But I distinctly remember not going Vanaduke during that particular run.
@Doctorspacebar
I suppose if shadow keys were priced decently in cr and had their CE prices removed completely it would serve as a viable crownsink. But I do believe OOO still wants shadow keys to incite more people to buy excessive CE, and that's good for their wallets. Otherwise, it seems like a really great idea but I doubt OOO will go through with it. (If they even pick up any idea suggested here)
As for item naming, I've always wanted the idea of extra customization to give that more personal feel to the game. Alternatively, if one wants customization features to be accessible to only the rich people and hence suck more crowns out of the economy, put featured auctions on name tags for obscene amounts of crowns.
@Serell pegging the bribe rate to the current CE rate might need constant patch updates, so I wonder about the feasibility of that suggestion in terms of coding for the devs.
@Heste I very much like that idea, but again, a balanced pricing is of utmost importance so as not to destabilize the entire economy.
@Scrolax good to know you agree with all of my ideas now (I guess).
I would rage if my recipes broke after a while. One of my sources of income is crafting 2* and 3* items and selling them to the masses in AH. Breaking that would remove yet another source of income for middle tier players. Not too sure about other people's opinions on this though, so I'll let them talk.
Also, all HoH recipes are bound upon purchase. Not too sure whether your other suggestion works after that.
@Merethif Sorry to ask here, but what are portraits?
Tue, 03/13/2012 - 08:11
#33
@Veacon
Portraits serve as a
@Veacon
Portraits serve as a major Pieces of Eight sink in Puzzle Pirate (another game designed by OOO). Pieces of Eight is in-game currency similar to Crowns in SK.
In SK costumes allow player to show off, but when you got many costumes you can't wear them all at once - portraits gallery is there to help you show all your costumes at once. Also you can take portraits with friends/celebrities/GM and show them off too. Not to mention portraits with weapons/achievements items (for example snowball for Son of the Nutcracker achievement). Endless possibilities.
Of course portraits would have to be introduced in a different way in SK, then in YPP, but I'm sure it is possible to think of something suitable.
Tue, 03/13/2012 - 18:16
#34
@Merethif
I see. The idea sounds very interesting and I'm pretty sure OOO knows how to expand the idea to spiral knights. Maybe they could add extra steam achievements for it.
Tue, 03/13/2012 - 18:28
#35
@vaecon: ya, it would most
@vaecon: ya, it would most likely be very hard to code, but I believe a lot more peop le would bribe him. I think the only.people who bribe him are people with elevator passes, getting rid of mist.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 03:55
#36
Oh, hey~
Haven't seen you around, dude. Thought you were mostly lurking around the equipment section of the Forums, but meh.
Anyways, my response to a few ideas:
-Make the hall of heroes five star recipes more expensive than that of Basil's. Might encourage the recipe market again for certain recipes.
Ideas that require new content:
-Make some new costumes (like a tier 2 mender's costume) and new swords/guns/shield (maybe add the trojan's sword and shield) that will be available via featured auction.
There's actually a lot of talk about removing HoH simply because the recipes are too easy to get now, thus cutting down on one of the crown sinks. Too much said there, so here's the link if you're interested: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/44713
As for the costumes, so far they're doing their job (I guess); although CE prices are still soaring. Might need to resort to other methods; equipment would be nice but too much of a hassle to design and implement on a regular basis; at least on OOO's part.
What would happen if we changed Vise's unbinding fee into crowns? Or just a part of it.
We would be creating an cr sink and we would have a reason to use vise again since the supply depot prices are cheaper than the fees.
.
Plausible; however Vise's fees are expensive in general to disincentivize the unbinding of equipment for sale; particularly those that you crafted yourself and aren't too keen to keep anymore. Would definitely be a crown sink, but I don't think it lends to more people using Vise; unless you lower the prices and effectively go against the very reason why Vise was set up in the first place.
- Portraits (similar to the ones in Puzzle Pirates)
- Customised Guild Crests (similar to the ones in Bang Howdy)
Sounds good as crown sinks although there has to be some way to display both of these things; for the portraits it's easy since you can just view it through inspecting another character (just like YPP, I know); the guild crests might be a wee bit more problematic.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 04:06
#37
wait hold on hold on...
to whoever thinks changing the bribe on Krogmo's collesium from CE to cr... honestly it would not be that hard XD some of the steps would involve putting in different values (ie. it wouldnt be 25 cr to bribe, change it to like 1500 cr) and instead of subtracting a relative amount from your CE, it would apply to Cr instead
it wont be easy, but nothing in coding is.. but relatively it wouldnt be one of the "harder things" to code :P
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 04:17
#38
Dumbest thing i've ever
Dumbest thing i've ever heard
REDUCE CITADEL PAYOUT.
Seriously? It's money, we want more of it, if the payout gets dropped, you'll screw everyone over tremendously.
Another reason KOA is higher, is because USUALLY you have to do a few floors before you even get to the citadel in arcade. The payout is only increased in koa by 1200 or so crowns.
However, more promo items, and crownsinks, great idea, also suggest a fee for those who keep returning to hall of heros just for recipes. Perhaps a fee to replay any mission?
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 04:53
#39
Really?
KoA is having an effect on the CE market.
This has an effect on potential players who can't access higher tiers due to Ce costs.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 05:51
#40
Alright, how about this.
Basically, make the payout for missions leading to arenas/bosses lower. Only for missions, mind you; so this doesn't affect those poor souls venturing down into the Arcade.
Same probably applies to tokens (I was actually FOR removing token rewards for mission boss battles), simply because it would be too easy to obtain boss rewards, hence devaluing them as crown sinks (it was bad enough when snarble barb and whatnot only costed 10 tokens instead of 15).
Since they are boss rewards, it's logical that they would be relatively harder to obtain than other equipment of the same star rating.
However, more promo items, and crownsinks, great idea, also suggest a fee for those who keep returning to hall of heros just for recipes. Perhaps a fee to replay any mission?
You can't just make a promo item whenever you like; there has to be a promotion going on.
But I do see a fair point in fees for replaying a mission; particularly those going into boss levels.
Frankly I won't mind Citadel payouts staying as they are given that players with better equipment (ergo more purchasing power) usually go there.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 06:05
#41
~
@Kentard well hello there I didn't even know you had a forum account! Haven't seen you post a lot either. Maybe you just lurk, like me. :D
@Diamondshreddie Serell's original plan was to peg the bribe bar at a floating rate against the current CE price in the market tab, not just to change the bribes to a set value. That is where the coding problem comes in.
I still think we should have 2 separate bars though, so I can finally get all those coins that I want, though this might devalue Krogmo Coin boosters a bit.
@Damienfoxy Clearly you have not read through the previous posts before commenting. Scrolax was once a steadfast believer in the non-crippling of the FSC mission payout, but he does not have anything to say now. Once you have read through the previous posts, and still have a reason as to why having less payout will "screw everyone over tremendously", please do share.
For your reference, post #6, post #13, post #15.
@Atrumvindex hear, hear!
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 06:39
#42
@veacon
soo ... you want to pay more to krogmo if CE prices are ........ low? or high?
i don't get it
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 19:23
#43
Sorry there
@Diamondshreddie I think I may have phrased that a bit badly. Essentially what Serell stated was that the amount that one needs to bribe king krogmo with is always set to the current CE price in the market.
So for example if today CE prices are 7k/100CE, then to bribe king krogmo it would take 7k cr. But if tomorrow CE prices are 7.5k/100CE, then it would take 7.5k cr, and so on.
Its not as simple as just fixing 7k cr and thus the bribe price will always be 7k cr etc etc.
@Damienfoxy I didn't see this earlier:
"Another reason KOA is higher, is because USUALLY you have to do a few floors before you even get to the citadel in arcade. The payout is only increased in koa by 1200 or so crowns."
Okay let me put it in perspective. Previously, people had to go down the floors before citadel in arcade, and that did net them some money. Fair enough. Sad thing is, they wasted their energy (or their time, if they had elevator passes) to go down a few pretty [crappy] levels that they never wanted to.
For example, last time it used to be 80 ME for a full T3 run, but now it is 40 ME for a FSC mission without vanaduke.
They earn, as you said, about 1200 more than a mission, which amounts to about 10k
What people do now, is go FSC twice, which costs them 100 ME, or 80 ME without bosses, and they earn pretty much double what they were earning previously. It makes no sense why KOA should be higher.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 19:31
#44
People have stated that
People have stated that bosses like jelly king and roarmulous are paying less than arcade versions, correct?
Ever thought they did that so vanaduke could have a better payout?
Also, it's justified, dealing with trojans that trap you in shadow fire and whatnot
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 19:34
#45
not going to let a thread like this die
@Veacon: I know what you mean when you say that crafting 2 star gear is good income for some players, however it doesn't get rid of much of the insane amount of crowns in the market already. And I think I mentioned that recipes in the HoH should be more expensive. It wouldn't be a major one since most people would only have to re-buy 2 or 3 star recipes.
@Damienfoxy the KoA mission is terrible for the market in the sense that p2p players (Essecially if they have the elevator pass) and f2p player that are just rich can just repeat this levels over and over again to get the most of their ce rather than selling it, or if they have the pass they have an alternative to getting their cr when they need it.
I took a second thought about the price for unbinding if it was ce and it would most likely be over 350000 for 5 star items (since that is how much there worth to buy from a stranger), over 100,000 cr for 4 star, 35000 for 3 star, 7500 for 2 star and 3000 for for 1 star. So it might completely discourage the unbinding of 4 and 5 star gear.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 20:04
#46
Hahahahah
@Scrolax Its true that crafting lower tier items is not much of a crownsink. I only spend 400 cr to make the item, and 10% of my profits get taken from me by the AH. Considering the fact I can make 2 a day, its pretty insignificant. I still think that the devs will not allow recipes to break after X uses though, since some people might want to craft 3 Ash tail coats (4* item) just so that they can make Snarbolax, Skolver, and vog cub coats, and a 4* recipe is quite a lot.
I"ll add it to the first post to let others comment.
@Damienfoxy You didn't read my previous post (#41) to you. Read it.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 20:23
#47
@Vaecon : No, i think you got
@Vaecon : No, i think you got it wrong. It's not going to cost 7k cr to bribe krogmo if the current rate for CE is 7k cr XD
What i mean is, if the price for 100 CE is 7000, then the price of 1 CE is 70, so to fill ONE ( not to full the whole thing) meter it cost 70cr. to fill it all the way up, it would be 70cr x 25 (to lazy to do the math right now)
EDIT : Oh and you would also still have the option to bribe him with energy for people with elevator passes getting rid of mist.
Wed, 03/14/2012 - 20:25
#48
@Serell
Ah sorry, but at least I got the gist of "pegged to the current CE rate" right.
Thu, 03/15/2012 - 07:18
#49
What on-?
@Damienfoxy:
Also, it's justified, dealing with trojans that trap you in shadow fire and whatnot.
Your inability to take on trojans is not a valid reason for having a better payout.
Granted, it's not easy, but the payout is already pretty darn good.
Ever thought they did that so vanaduke could have a better payout?
I'd like to see some proof as to how there's any logical link between Jelly and Roar missions paying less, and Vana having a better payout. On second thoughts, don't.
If OOO deliberately reduced the payout of JK and Roar while in a mission, it's highly likely that they won't do so to increase the payout of another mission; in this case, Vana. Simply put, they don't want missions to become too easy a source of crowns. What we're saying is, it's still too easy, and we'd like to see some changes.
@Serell: That's pretty much the idea, yes. I don't think Veacon knew the exact bribe bar capacity, but the gist is it's pegged to CE prices in CR.
Thu, 03/15/2012 - 21:08
#50
Btw its spelt Veacon
@Kentard Damienfoxy's logic shows no limits.
Updated first post with new suggestions!
What if i want to just gift stuff?
What if i trade by mail and laugh while avoiding your taxes?
Or we could slowly trade crown-by crown (how are you gonna take 5% from that, lol?)
And what about item trades with no crowns involved?
Put a random number there and hope they like it? since the game cant differentiate accesorized or UV gear and doesnt weight useless vs popular mats...