Spiral Knights - Fix the pay outs

Fix the pay outs

27 replies [Last post]

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 03:29

Fehzor

Really.

Jelly king pays 2.6K for 3 levels = 866 cr per level on average (counting boss level, but not tokens)
Roarmulus pays 1.3K for 3 levels = 433 cr per level on average (counting boss level, but not tokens)
Vanaduke pays 12K( + 3K worth in tokens) for 5 levels = 2.4K cr per level (counting boss level, but not tokens)

Something is wrong with this picture. One of the T2 bosses pays twice what the other pays, and the T3 boss payout is ridiculous. Thats just a start. I'd like to see OOO look at all levels, and balance the payouts.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 08:32

Diabound

Alright I have to respond to

Alright I have to respond to this, the reason Jelly King pays out so much more is because Shadow Weapons are useless at Vanaduke (which as you already have shown, is the ultimate goal of any player). Trust me, if Roarmulus paid equally, Shadow Weapons would all but disappear except for perhaps, the Shadow Bomb that is P2P.

Right now I only occasionally see the faust and one in a blue moon the toxic catalyzer line. We don't need to decrease their numbers.

As for the tier 3 part, Vanaduke is much more difficult then Jelly King, even with good equipment so, don't think that's changing.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 09:03

Juances

Diabound is totally lost. What the hell have shadow weapons have to do in the mix?

The true reason of such differences between jelly and twins is the amount of enemies. One has lots of pink cubes that drop coins while the other only has traps that take your life and very few robots :p

But Vanaduke missions gives way too much, last 2 levels alone (20ce) are worth 8kcr. Those levels have to be bugged, why give double the amoutn of the other first levels.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 09:07

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

@Juances: Because of slags everywhere, obviously. :B
I'm pretty sure those last two levels have more slags than the others... but I suppose I might be wrong.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 09:55

Isenfir

@Diabound/@Juances

@Diabound:
I use Toxic Catalyzer for EVERY Slime level, JK or otherwise, and also use it on gremlins occasionally
I use Blackhawk for EVERY Gremlin level, Deconstruction Zone or otherwise(INCULDING IMF)
I WILL start using faust, as I just crafted one, quite often for its cursing capabilities
I do not use the P2P Shadow Bomb, but many do, especially for JK and Decon Zones
I do not use the Shadow Brandish, but I have seen many people with it, on slime or gremlin levels
I have not seen any Graviton Vortexes, because Electron and Dark Reprisal ursurp it
I have not seen any shadowtech alchemers
The reason you don't see many shadow weapons is because there ARE NONE. This is all there is compared to the many other ele and piercing weps (and normal)
Your argument is completly and utterly invalid

@Juances:
You're correct, it all has to do with number of enemies, which is why OOO needs to basically change the set number of crown drops(range) for the boss zones, more for IMF, leave JK where it is, and less for FSC, and maybe mess around with them so say that its 1k for IMF and JK, 3-5k for FSC.
Also, I would like to validate your claim on the last two missions (boss and second to last), as I just did them recently and got 8.3k Cr.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 10:37

Softhead

Hmm....

Couldn't they put the original payout of FSC?

JK pays out less in missions due to being one depth higher.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 12:52

Diabound

@IsenfirReally? As

@Isenfir

Really? As surprisingly as this may be, most people don't buy a gun and level it to four or five stars for common monsters that can easily be handled without using a shadow weapon and you really shouldn't use yourself as an example as you seem to have accrued a significant amount of wealth at this point because I don't know many people who have the time and expense to level a weapon for each and every different kind of level in the game.

@Juances
As for you, are you really unaware of the pattern shown here and do you really think the game developers were too stupid to realize that they were making the Roarmulus stages have much less profit than JK? No, it was intended by the game developers so that of the two bosses, JK would yield more crowns now you can say whatever you want as to how they did it but there IS an actual reason as to WHY they did it. They could easily Juances, if they wanted to add treasure boxes if they intended you to earn the same amount of crowns but they don't because:

The structure of the bosses are as follows
First boss: Snarbolax
Weak to piercing, strong against elemental

Second bosses: JK, Roar
Both resistant to piercing, different weaknesses

Last Boss: Vanaduke
Weak to piercing, normal is also useful in floating head stages. Not only resistant to shadow but also IMMUNE to shadow at the last few stages.

Thus, if you decide to level a piercing weapon like a strike needle, you'll have dead weight for the tier two bosses but will be ultimately compensated with something to handle Vanaduke and the Trojans on tier 3. Elemental weapons are also prized because they handle Roarmulus and ultimately are very useful against the undead swarms at FSC.

Currently, the only time where having a shadow weapon can actually be valuable enough for your survival is Jelly King so why would anyone except superwealthy people waste their time if you decide to make Roarmulus and JK equal in value? For any new player, the only incentive to get a shadow weapon is to take out JK, that's why the crowns for that boss are more than Roar. If though, you decide to make the loot equal, then people are just going to go fight Roarmulus with an elemental Brandish and then you'll have a great weapon to handle the skellies at FSC and anyone who decides to invest in a shadow weapon will receive no benefit whatsoever.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 12:48

Serell

@Diabound : I think someone

@Diabound : I think someone needs a waffle :3

Roarmulus NEEDS a better pay out, especially because so many people lag there!
I can do everything else just fine, but with all those frickin missiles flying everywhere i lag terrible, and depend on my team mates the whole time.
So with that alone, i want a better pay out for traveling through lag heaven.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 13:05

Diabound

@SerellThe lag problem is

@Serell
The lag problem is severe in this game and that part yes, but it doesn't change the fact that choosing to use elemental weapons to clear tier 2 will come in much more handy later on against Vanaduke which is the best farm in the game. The game designers don't want you to farm Roarmulus at tier 2, they want you to farm JK so that you have a good reason to build a shadow weapon

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 13:27

Demonicsothe

Shadow weapons useless on

Shadow weapons useless on seerus and constructs and gremlins and everything else in crimson hammer.

Mmmmkay.

Joking aside, I don't think the dev's purposefully distributed the cr payout just to promote making certain weapons.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 14:25

#10

Isenfir

@Diabound

[rant]
You are very, hmmm what's the word, oblivious. They aren't doing it because they want people to waste their money on shadow weapons, and here's a few reasons why.

1. Shadow weapons in PvP. Shadow weapons are arguably very damaging, since many people bolster their piercing and elemental defenses for PvP (flourishes and DA)

2. People think JK is funner (which I do not get). Many people prefer running JK because they say it's funner than Roarmy, if anything, they would put more payout on Roarmy so more people would run it. (I myself though love roarmy)

3. Shadow Weapons are few. The reason shadow weapons are largely underused, is because there aren't many, and the ones there are tend to have better alternatives (DA to GF, Pulsar to Catalyzer, Electron to Vortex, Nightblade to Elemental Brandishes, Shadowtech to other Alchemers, in fact the ONLY shadow weapon without an alternative is Dark Reprisal, which is P2P.)

4. I felt that the big chunk in parenthesis deserved its own bullet. That there is a huge point, since all shadow weapons have elemental alternatives, and constructs are much more common in the clockworks than any other monster.

5. There are less monsters in IMF than JK

6. for the same reason as latter half of 4, people tend to get Elemental weapons, and Elemental Defense.

7. You are a conspirist

Your argument is COMPLETLY and UTTERLY invalid. OOO is not conspiring to make you get shadow weapons for JK. They did not purposly make it pay out more. You need to find proof before making such a claim.

And also, PLENTY of T3 people still run JK, including myself, my friends, my guild, and contest promoters(CE giveaways and the like), etc.

So just shut up before making claims that OOO/Sega are trying to make a crownsink out of JK and Shadow Weapons until you have solid proof.
[/rant]

tl:DR Diabound is a conspirist who think OOO/Sega are trying to make people spend money on shadow weapons, and I have 7 point to prove him wrong.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 14:29

#11

Isenfir

Oh and yea...

I'm still a 4* player reaching into 5*. So I do not have masses of wealth lying around. You make a lot of claims before proof don't y'a?

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:23

#12

Diabound

So what then Isenfir, you're

So what then Isenfir, you're just wasting crowns to handle gremlins then?

And it's not conspiring stupid, there is a reason that when the game first came out, the two bosses were Vanaduke and Jelly King THINK!! If you choose piercing weapons you get to have an easy time in FSC, if you choose elemental you have a regular time in every tier and if you choose shadow weapons you at least have a easy time facing Jelly King, the game is designed so that no matter what weapon you choose, you have some benefit at some point of the game, stop putting words in my mouth you troll. I never said shadow weapons were a crown sink though somehow you got the idea, I am saying however, that if you choose shadow weapons, you choose to have to make a different weapon to take to Vanaduke and that is why JK gives more crowns because if they didn't, there would be no incentive for anyone running clockworks for the first time to bother with shadow weapons unless for some reason they have excessive difficulty with jellies and gremlins.

Also in case you didn't realize,

"And also, PLENTY of T3 people still run JK, including myself, my friends, my guild, and contest promoters(CE giveaways and the like), etc."

They do so because JK has more profits then Roarmulus, if the prices were equal, the times they would run it would decrease substantially which is my main point that you have completely ignored.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:12

#13

Demonicsothe

What. So, making one weapon

What. So, making one weapon for each damage type is a stupid idea? Having effective damage to everything is a stupid idea?

Mmmkay. Brb, rageposting on every guide that says speciaized damage is good.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:20

#14

Diabound

@DemonicsotheReally? That's

@Demonicsothe

Really? That's what you got from this? If you ask people what's the hardest part of the game, they will say the BOSSES! If Jelly King is reduced in crowns, then those who decide to use shadow weapons will receive no benefit for having chosen shadow weapons. They don't get any advantage in tier 2 over the other weapons types in terms of farming and worse, they can't use it against Vanaduke.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:23

#15

Isenfir

@Diabound

"If you ask people what's the hardest part of the game, they will say the BOSSES!"

Really? If you asl people what's the hardest part of the game they will say one of the following three things

1. Shadow Lairs/Unknown Passage

2. Shock Fiends

3. Vanaduke

More so the first two rather than the last, get real man.

JK should not be reduced in Cr, but rather like I said increase IMF's Cr.

Oh and Vana isn't endgame, Darkfire Vana is endgame

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:25

#16

Demonicsothe

What makes a level

What makes a level challenging? When the floor/strat deals damage as a whole, enough to kill knights. Rjp's damage comes from jelly hordes. More monster, more drops. Imf's damage comes from traps, obstacles, and various hazards. Less monster, less drops.

You forget, gremlins are some of the not so easy monsters in the game. Crimson hammer is full of gremlins, and a shadow weapon would be preferred, no? There is also 3 tiers of it. Which, one can argue that means seerus is also a T3 boss.

Vana is not challenging. Greavers are. Devilites are. Status variants of them are even worst. What do you need to fight them? Piercing weapons. I can say that the devs are secretly laughing at players in T2, because they didn't make a piercing weapon of either RT or JK. And then they get killed by fiends.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:31

#17

Diabound

And why should Roarmulus be

And why should Roarmulus be increased? So that people have even more incentive to get a Divine Avenger? At least in the current situation if you chose to take a shadow weapon you have an advantage in tier 2 over people who choose to get elemental weapons. If you equalize the loot, then those who use elemental not only get an easy time in tier 2, they also have a much easier time in FSC. Basically what you are asking for is that someone should be able to choose a single weapon type and have an easy time at every tier and that's not how a game should work and no, despite what you may think it's not a conspiracy to design a game that way.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:38

#18

Serell

JK is easy, i don't need a

JK is easy, i don't need a shadow weapon to solo him. I have a shadow weapon cuz its cool and darkness and stuff :3
But, shadow weapons are very good for gremlins, which are not so easy.
They have an oh so annoying attack pattern >.<

Look, all boss of the same stratum should give just as much cr.
Even if they designed it the way you think they did Diabound, they need to change it.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:45

#19

Diabound

If you want it changed,

If you want it changed, they'll have to add a new boss at tier 3 that isn't immune to shadow probably king Tink but with the new P2P stuff, that might take a while. Otherwise, shadow weapons will not give you an edge during any tier of clockworks unlike Piercing which is far more useful to farm with then shadow.

PS. Are you at 2 or 3 star stuff? Because without shadow weapons and anyone to carry you, it get's rough not to mention the fact that sometimes JK runs just don't pan out correctly

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 15:51

#20

Serell

...Piercing is more useful?

...Piercing is more useful? :|
There's a lot of constructs in the clockworks...

Shadow is just as good, because there are a lot of gremlins in the clockworks.

Oh, and im at 3 star stuff

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 16:11

#21

Diabound

At tier 3, when you farm, you

At tier 3, when you farm, you will be farming FSC. Having a piercing weapon will be very useful and will be much more helpful then a shadow weapon to survive there. The opposite is the case in tier 2, where to farm, you will farm jelly queen and having a shadow weapon will be more helpful than a piercing weapon. This is intentional. The weapons are more or less balanced outside of bosses, thus, the biggest incentive aside from personal preference is ultimately what weapon will help you farm the boss faster and easier which in tier 3 will be piercing.

PS. Serell how many weapons have you built to 3 stars so far and the bigger question, how many are you going to upgrade before facing Vanaduke because this illustrates my point well. If your answer is "as few as possible" you will need replace your shadow weapon, thus in tier 3 you will have to spend more time before farming vanaduke. However, you had an easier time farming JK then someone with say a flourish did you not? That means you got to tier 3 sooner. That's the benefit and consequence of choosing Shadow weapons.

Now, if you had a strike needle, you indeed will have suffered a lot in JK but now you only need to upgrade your needle and thus, it more or less works out. Each weapon in the current setting is made so that you will have an easier time gathering crowns than other people at some point in the game with elemental being the middle road in that it is never resisted past tier 1 but never the best weapons to have to farm.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 16:15

#22

Serell

...Increasing the amount of

...Increasing the amount of cr to make them evean isn't going to make people want to do roarmy more than JK.
People will still do JK to get themselves Jelly tokens. People will still do roarmy to get bark tokens. I don't do them for the cr, i do them for the fun and tokens.
Well actually, people are still gonna do JK more than roarmy because so many people lag there.

EDIT : Oh, and i don't plan on doing vana for a while after i get T3 access XD
First, i must get skilled at T3, so thats gonna be a while, so i'll have time to make a weapon just for vana.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 16:30

#23

Diabound

"...Increasing the amount of

"...Increasing the amount of cr to make them evean isn't going to make people want to do roarmy more than JK."

What I'm saying is that people should want to do JK more, otherwise if you were just a newb randomly choosing a weapon, then shadow weapons will be a unlucky choice. The game is made so that a person can pick any weapon and not have a huge advantage over any other weapon in running the clockworks. If you do it like this, a person who chooses a shadow weapon will take much longer running the clockworks than someone with an elemental weapon which is unfair.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 16:38

#24

Demonicsothe

I'm not understanding how

I'm not understanding how making a 3* nightblade is heavily detrimental. It isn't as if you need to take it all the way to 5*

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 17:03

#25

Diabound

I don't understand your

I don't understand your question but ultimately, if you chose to have a nightblade, then running JK is easier which you then use to get to tier 3 quicker. FOr the other types, they have a choice to make a nightblade or continue as they are. Then at four stars, the person with the nightblade needs to make a new weapon before he attempts Vanaduke and by the time he get's that much money, likely the other guys should have also reached tier 3 in a similar state.

If Roarmulus is equal loot however, a person wielding say a ice brandish will get to tier 3 at the same pace as a person with a nightblade but he will have a far easier time getting to vanaduke which though you may consider to be minor, is still inherently unfair.

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 18:40

#26

Isenfir

@Diabound

Show me proof that OOO wants us to do JK for shadow weapons, until then I'm not believing you.

oh and P.S.
[/end Off-Topic Shadow Weapon Disccusion]
Lets get back on topic shall we?
[On Topic Discussion]

Tue, 03/13/2012 - 19:18

#27

Diabound

No you don't get it, they

"Show me proof that OOO wants us to do JK for shadow weapons, until then I'm not believing you."

This shows that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, it's a balancing situation. If you take a shadow weapon, you have an easier time on JK and harder time later that's how it works. The opposite happens with piercing, this is intended so that two people will reach the end at somewhat the same time no matter what weapons they chose.

Here's how it works:
Piercing: Benefits: Best weapon against vanaduke con:worst weapon to farm with at tier 2
Elemental: Benefits: None of the hard F2P bosses are resistant to elemental, con: none of the good bosses are weak against elemental
Shadow: Benefits: JK best tier two farm con: useless against Vanaduke

If you take that away from Shadow by increasing the benefits of Roarmulus, that's obviously unbalanced because that just means that means you'll progress slower wielding a shadow weapon.

I just don't understand how you don't understand this, if you make it so that elemental weapons have an easy time as well, people wielding say, a piercing and an elemental them will progress faster then people wielding the a piercing and a shadow because they can both progress through tier 2 grinding but the elemental person will have an easy time at tier 3 while the person wielding the shadow will need to replace his shadow weapon for an elemental in order to take vanaduke. It's a simple fact that you refuse to understand or even think about and it should be common sense but apparently you're not getting that the game designers would want to balance it out for each weapon configuration.

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Fix the pay outs