Spiral Knights - Devilite Attack Warnings, Mecha Knight AIs

Devilite Attack Warnings, Mecha Knight AIs

32 replies [Last post]

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 14:11

Thinslayer

I personally think that the number one reason why Devilites are sometimes considered OP is because they never warn you when they're about to attack, unless they're overtimers. Dodging their attacks and timing your own would be so much easier. The apparent randomness of their attacks is great; the lack of warning is not.

I also think that the mecha knights/NPC knights could use an AI buff. As of now, they perform charge attacks from a distance, combo swing at close range, shield against projectiles, and otherwise follow you around. I'm thinking that the AI for these guys should be different:
*For friendly NPCs, they don't follow you around, they follow any enemies they can see within their line of sight. If they follow you, they should stick rather close to you.
*All AI knights (both enemy and NPC) should attempt to sidestep (dodging, but with normal movement speed) any shots fired at them before they try to shield. They don't get any dedicated "dodge" moves, though.
*They should try to keep their distance when a player is charging a weapon and try to shield against both bullets and charge attacks from any weapon type (maybe including bombs?).
*They should attempt to charge their own weapons while sidestepping (dodging) an attack.
*They should always try to combo a player when he/she gets close.
*They seriously need to improve their pathfinding abilities.

OPTIONAL
*They could have the same shield type that the players get (i.e., bubble shields)
*They could be harmed by map hazards just as we are, and should try to avoid them accordingly
*Some could carry guns or bombs. Bombs would have to be charged before being dropped, just as players have to do.
*With all these new abilities, mecha knights could be much rarer.

What do you guys think about all this?

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 15:03

Juances

Before they attack,you can gear a "swooop" as they charge and grab a weapon. Then a "pooom" as they throw the thing.

I think they use the same sound as knights with vials.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 15:20

Damienfoxy

I think we should add a

I think we should add a hotdog cart in the middle of every arena.

This hotdog cart will fire flaming weenies at everyone, setting them on fire as well.

Also, we need a slurpee machine too.

Mon, 03/26/2012 - 19:03

Toxicyoccm

"*For friendly NPCs, they

"*For friendly NPCs, they don't follow you around, they follow any enemies they can see within their line of sight. If they follow you, they should stick rather close to you.
*All AI knights (both enemy and NPC) should attempt to sidestep (dodging, but with normal movement speed) any shots fired at them before they try to shield. They don't get any dedicated "dodge" moves, though.
*They should always try to combo a player when he/she gets close."

The above Mecha knights already do; and with your first, Mecha knights Kits and Mecha Knights malfunctioning on proximity is already annoying.

"OPTIONAL
*They could have the same shield type that the players get (i.e., bubble shields)
*They could be harmed by map hazards just as we are, and should try to avoid them accordingly
*Some could carry guns or bombs. Bombs would have to be charged before being dropped, just as players have to do.
*With all these new abilities, mecha knights could be much rarer."

T3 Mecha knights drop bombs as part of their charged move, along with any status variant shooting 4 projectile. I get making mecha knights literal mechanical knights, but it seems better the way it is. [but they could always be less common]

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 05:16

Twiddle

+1 to the devilite warning

Yes, the devilite warning is something that I have been complaining about for a while. It would be nice to have some type of warning so you can react before the life bars fly out of your character.

I think they are working on the AI part. I've been noticing clockwork monsters getting smarter and smarter. For instance, before I could kite monsters easily as they would blindly follow me in circles. Now I see them working together to cut off my retreat. These kinds of changes make the game more interesting, and I think they will refine the AI as they continue to develop the game.

@Juances
I hear the "swooop". I block. Floppy disk ignores my shield. I take damage. I hear another "swooop." The devilite next to me is attacking. I continue to shield. Old power Mac ignores my shield. I take more damage.
I hear the "swooop". I move perpendicular to the attack. Office chair bounces off of empty space where I was standing. I take damage.

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 05:59

Asukalan

"I personally think that the

"I personally think that the number one reason why Devilites are sometimes considered OP is because they never warn you when they're about to attack, unless they're overtimers."

Wrong. They do warn you. It takes ages for them before they throw anything at you, and during that time, you see that they are picking up the stuff they are throwing at you.

If you are blind or have short attention span even big red sign covering your whole screen wont help you notice incoming attacks.
So... the whole part of "devilites attack warning" is pointless and not justified since there is a warning before they attack.

@Twiddle. Improve tactic, make better equipment, work on your reaction times, avoid fiends levels or go back to playing chees, you dont need reflexes there.

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 07:53

Quotefanboy

Heh.

Devilites not being fast? Asu, you are quite the funny individual.

Maybe it's just me, but when they throw an item there's 3 things I'd have to say is why I don't like it.

A.) Sometimes, the indicator doesn't show. Happens to me a lot. I'll be fighting a devilite, and I'll suddenly get a projectile thrown at me. My reflexes aren't to blame for this, for I watch those little death monsters with more focus then any other.
B.) Throwing as fast as the indicator is. When that indicator goes up, and they pick up a weapon, I shield. Turns out, I still got hit because the shield has a small 0.2-0.4 delay on guarding. That means, they're fast enough to when they pick up their weapon and throw it to where I can't guard it at a close enough distance. I have to shield in advance to guarantee safety.
C.) They deal: Shadow + Normal + Their element. If their an Overtimer it's: Shadow + Normal + Their element + Stun. That's a lot of things for our poor shields to guard against, and they sometimes come in large numbers. Which makes them very annoying to even guard.

Sure, with My Barbarous thorn blade / Callahan combo I can rip through them with relative ease, but your insults towards our reflex don't justify the results that Devilites fire their weapons extremely fast. I've fought these things since this game came out, and because of this I can pretty much guarantee I'm backing up my information on something more then an assumption of only fighting them a few times.

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 08:34

Asukalan

"A.) Sometimes, the indicator

"A.) Sometimes, the indicator doesn't show. Happens to me a lot. I'll be fighting a devilite, and I'll suddenly get a projectile thrown at me. My reflexes aren't to blame for this, for I watch those little death monsters with more focus then any other."

Maybe indicator does not show, but you can always see 'pick ups random stuff' animation.

"That's a lot of things for our poor shields to guard against, and they sometimes come in large numbers. Which makes them very annoying to even guard."

Oh poor shields, its not like they are meant to protect us and take everything that its thrown on them. They come in large numbers? I heard there is quite few of enemies in Advanced Training Hall, try doing them instead of dangerous devilites, since they seem to be problem for you.

"Which makes them very annoying to even guard."
You find them annoying? Its your problem.

"Devilites fire their weapons extremely fast."
Something being fast, ist not relative, your poor reflexes and attention span may make you think everything is faster that its really is.

And also. Why does everyone think that they have to kill everything in game? That everything has to be easy? That with super-shiny-5star-justbough/crafted equipment they must come trough all enemies like through butter?

Accept it. You are too weak for some things. The ability to kill some enemies may and will be out of your reach. You will never achieve everything. And complaining about stuff being too hard makes you look silly and by posting it you compromite yourself.
Its like asking to make math easier becouse just you dont understand it and you demand to make math understandable for you becouse you perfectly understand chemistry, physics, biology. It sounds just stupid as it is.

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 10:08

Quotefanboy

You know, I almost feel trolled.

I can tell you're really good at your art of trolling, but my need for proving morons wrong is too great for me to ignore.
So lets go at it, shall we?

A.) Maybe indicator does not show, but you can always see 'pick ups random stuff' animation.
-That does not suffice the situation of a glitch that is supposed to be able to show an indication of an attack. Just because I can see the Wolver crouching down before his bite, doesn't mean he should get top excluded of "Indicating an attack" like every other monster.

Just because I have enough skill to notice what's going on, doesn't mean the bug shouldn't be fixed. A skill base does not excuse bad coding.

B.)Oh poor shields, its not like they are meant to protect us and take everything that its thrown on them. They come in large numbers? I heard there is quite few of enemies in Advanced Training Hall, try doing them instead of dangerous devilites, since they seem to be problem for you.

-First things first, My friend has a maxed out Dread skelly shield. It takes 2-3 hits for it to break from type of monster it's designed to be guarding. My friend walks up to Shock turrets with his grey owlite, and laughs with his shield as his elemental and Shock does nothing to his blue bubble, but my friend's Dread skelly breaks as fast as a god damn swiftstrike buckler. There's a difference between" I should be able to guard anything and everything from a swarm."

I also seem to find it funny how you try to attack me, instead of the situation at hand. Advanced training hall huh? I apologize that, as a child, you were bullied around by people much larger and physically built, and because of this you feel an inferiority towards others. Therefore, to get rid of this inferiority, you try to redeem it with a "superiority complex" over the space of the internet by trying to bash on others, then anything else. 0/10.

C.) You find them annoying? Its your problem.
-Yes, yes it is. Me finding bugs is very annoying, and it's a problem I shouldn't have to deal with.

D.)Something being fast, ist not relative, your poor reflexes and attention span may make you think everything is faster that its really is.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMCz_J9QEDw
You're right, I don't play tribes moving at 359 Sanics sniping people with arc-based projectiles. I've beaten Battletoads since I was 9, and IWBTG when I was 14, so I don't think my reflexes come into play here.
All I can say is: When I guard before they throw their projectile, and I take damage anyway, without my shield taking anything, I believe that they fire it faster then the game can process the shield being put up. Which means, that's fast, regardless of how "inferior" reflexes may or may not be.

E.) And also. Why does everyone think that they have to kill everything in game? That everything has to be easy? That with super-shiny-5star-justbough/crafted equipment they must come trough all enemies like through butter?
-Because the room is locked until everything is dead, therefore I have to kill everything in game. I'm not asking it for it to be easy, I'm asking for it not to be buggy.

F.)Accept it. You are too weak for some things. The ability to kill some enemies may and will be out of your reach. You will never achieve everything. And complaining about stuff being too hard makes you look silly and by posting it you compromite yourself.
Its like asking to make math easier becouse just you dont understand it and you demand to make math understandable for you becouse you perfectly understand chemistry, physics, biology. It sounds just stupid as it is.
-Okay, Master Yi, you got me. My_skills_are_inferior.avi.
Also, so you realize how stupid that sounded? Not understanding basic math, but understanding physics? Do you proof read what you type? No, I suppose not. I have yet to see something that's out of my reach in this game, because I've already soloed everything it has to offer, but that's not what this argument is about. If you wish to consistently attack me, personally, instead of the point at hand. Instead of actually proving people wrong with backed up information as to why Devilites are/are not broken/fair, you choose to insult the base of the person, instead of the actual coding placed within the game. That doesn't back up your statement, it just proves how desperate to win an argument that you've already lost.

If you actually came here with decent numbers and information and anything that wasn't Master Yi's /taunt from League of legends, then your opinion would have been respectable, but you did not come with such information.

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 11:13

Asukalan

Oh yea, someone is against

Oh yea, someone is against your opinion, call him troll. Way to go.

Dread Skelly Shield breaking too fast - fiends are just powerfull. And swiftstrike breaks with 1 hit.
Bug with attack indicator? This is suggestion forum, not bug report.
The door is locked? Well, you know that it will lock before you entered the room. You entered it at your own risk. And besides of that, you can always return to haven.

"...math, but understanding physics..." yeah like that was the whole point of it ._. Looking for the holes in the whole much?

And to all of that, you soloed everything in game? And yet its YOU who have problems with devilites while i and may other players instead of complaining, whinning, crying over their dead bodies on forum, just adapt, adjust to situation and deal with devilites like its just another enemy or they choose other logical solution: they avoid it.

Tue, 03/27/2012 - 11:43

#10

Juances

Please, my 4* skelly doesnt break until 4-5 hits and is heat level 7.

A full Dread breaking in 3? Until I see a video of it, I cant believe that part. My barbarous is the only thing breaks in 2-3 with no sahdow defense at all....

MIGHT be a bug on the shields part so heads up.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 09:38

#11

Thinslayer

Consider this...

I'm not going to say that fighting fiends is easy for me. It's not. I'll admit that I need to improve my skills with them. But the speed with which they prepare and launch an attack is greater than or equal to the speed with which I can shield. This applies only at close range. At long range, dodging devilite attacks is doable, as long as you keep moving. This makes guns ideal for fighting devilites, and I like to keep a Magnus for this purpose. But I'm a swordie at heart, so I don't like being at range for too long. Devilites never give fair warning to their attacks. If I'm up close to them, I will 1) hit them once, cancelling their attack with strike one, 2) hit them again with strike two, 3) and cancel a second attack with my third strike. These data are for a Leviathan Blade. The Levi can do a full combo in about one full second. The Devilites can attack up to twice in that same time span (though not always), and they can do so without any warning. That's pretty darn fast, second only to gremlins! Gremlins, however, are more predictable; in Tier 3, they almost always finish their two-swing combos, and they still have the characteristic red warning flash before they begin the combo. Devilites don't do that. They either show it during the combo or not at all; neither is good enough.

The nearest equivalent enemies are Gremlins. I can handle gremlins. Alpha Wolvers fall easily even to my DA. Jellies are cake for me. The new zombies take some getting used to, but I can still slaughter them with ease. Tier 3 Kats are rather hard to hit, but dodging them is easy for me.

Devilites, however, kick the ball clear out of the park. They're downright nasty even in Tier 1! Dodging their attacks is difficult for me, even at range (unlike gunpuppies). They dodge mine better than most other enemies do. They even have pretty decent armor.

Maybe they're piecemeal for you, Asukalan. But all I'm asking for is a little warning before a devilite attack. That's all. I don't want them to be much easier - difficult enemies are hard to find nowadays. Either they should provide warning before launching an attack, or the launch needs to be slower. Ordinary knights that aren't up to par with you can't fight them. Should we avoid devilites? Heck no! The wait time between level changes is too long, and missions can't be skipped, so it's not really even a viable option. But even if it were an option, I wouldn't want to do it anyways - devilites would be crazy-fun to fight if they weren't so darn hard.

So, cut us a little slack here? Not everyone is godly at dodging things.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 12:00

#12

Asukalan

Didnt you though that very

Didnt you though that very rapid attack of devilites is part of them being challenge in game?

Launch need to be slower? But you said you dont want them to be easier? Launch slower = nerfed.

Ordinary knights cant fight them? Sorry for them, again they dont have to beat everything in game.

Waiting time between levels too long? There is always return to haven option. Again you dont have to beat everything, accept some things may be too hard for you.

Missions cant be skipped, well maybe its time for you to stop doing them. If you beat all early missions it dont mean you WILL HAVE to beat all others that are after.

Devilites would be crazy-fun to fight if they werent hard? Sorry, i dont get it, they do are fun to fight. And again even you say you dont want them to be easier i see here heresy of nerf request.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 12:19

#13

Demonicsothe

I havn't seen any devilites

I havn't seen any devilites attack twice in one second, not affected by stun or any such mechanics.

I have to admit, I skimmed your post after reading that. And what I got was nothing of solid fact or evidence, besides that constant whining for nerfs. First you say its fine long range, then you said it isn't.

Did you know wolvers, retrodes, and zombies have already been nerfed? You are comparing devilites to such nerfed enemies, and saying the game needs to be balanced. Perhaps, increasing your skill is useful. Or expanding your arsenal. If you are a swordie at heart like you say, you acknowledge and accept the limitations of swords.

Of course, walking straight into an office of T3 overtimers swinging and throwing stuff at you while you laugh and tank them could be your idea of fun. Perhaps try playing a easier game then.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 15:54

#14

The-Ark

Yes, lets nerf the last

Yes, lets nerf the last challenging monster family in the game.

Mon, 04/09/2012 - 21:00

#15

Psychodestroyer

Personally...

I can't wait until more servers are made.

One near Australia'll be good enough methinks, then I won't get hit as much when I stick up my shield due to latency/lag.

In other news: how do I trow deskchair?

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 11:40

#16

Asukalan

Donno, i never throw a

Donno, i never throw a deckchair.

But there was a guy in my country, like 10 years ago or so, he was playing Tibia, got addicted and when his mom disconnected his interned and his in-game character died he did throw his deckchair at her.

Devillites, the beginning?

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 15:39

#17

Thinslayer

@Asukalan

I don't think you read my reply carefully enough.

I think the launch needs to be slower. I don't want the devilites to be much easier, just a little bit easier.

I will contradict you: ordinary knights do have to be able to beat everything in the game. Nobody said it had to be easy, but it must be possible (read: easier) for these knights. And by "ordinary knights" I mean folks who have the minimum gear requirements for the given tier (e.g., 4* armor in Tier 3), no UVs, 2-3 bars ping, and decent skills. If they can't do it, then it's not fun. This is a game, after all.

Sorry, returning to Haven doesn't cut it. It costs energy to go deeper, and the rewards increase with the depth, so going to Haven to skip devilites just isn't worth it.

Not doing the missions is always an option, I'll give you that one.

And you misread me again: the devilites would be crazy fun to fight if they weren't so hard. They can still be hard, but not that hard.

I like to choose my words carefully, so every one counts. I recommend you read my posts a little more carefully from now on.

@everyone else
I'd like to poll the community on this: should some of the other enemies get a buff? Wolvers rotating while biting made dodging impossible (backing off was the only way to avoid it), but removing the rotation altogether has weakened them substantially. I propose a compromise: they should have a limited rotation speed while biting, like Tier 2 missiles. Wolvers would regain a larger part of their strength, while still allowing the possibility of dodging, if it's performed skillfully.

Maybe zombies should also regain a partial turning ability while swiping, as their only truly challenging attack right now is the leap.

Shields should be able to block Greaver haze. Otherwise, I think they are unique, challenging, and fun enemies.

Any constructive criticism would be appreciated.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 23:53

#18

Hexzyle

@Thinslayer

Buff all enemies abilities (except devilites) back up again, then do a minor universal nerf to all enemies (including devilites, like a small damage nerf).

This would mean enemies would be harder (because they're too damn easy at the moment) and devilites will be just slightly easier (which a lot of us want)

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 00:22

#19

Schattentag

@Thinslayer

I was completely fine with zombies and wolvers turning, honestly.

As for Greavers, I'm pretty sure shields do block their mist, but I could be wrong. I haven't recently been in a situation where I've allowed them to actually complete their attacks.

Hexzyle's compromise seems alright, I guess. Skilled players would hardly notice the damage nerf, since they'd still be able to dodge most things, but would enjoy a greater challenge. Newer players would face a steeper learning curve in T3, but would have a little bit of cushioning.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 00:29

#20

Snowdusk

Just an advise

I admit that devilites are annoying, and I admit that they picked me off more than I did. But let me tell you two extraordinary experiences I had with Devilish Drudgery levels (okay one of them isn't that extraordinary, in fact it's quite lame...)

-I was hanging around when one of my friends made a distress call to me in the middle of a mission. He said the party needs help, so I went. Turn out it's a poison-themed Devilish Drudgery. I had my Cryo Driver and Strike Needle equipped. We were doing quite badly, and I was lambasted many, many times when I fired my Strike Needle. At one point, everyone except me died (the party is full with four people). And guess what, I see overtimers everywhere, and I have only one health bar left. Strike Needle would be too dangerous for this, so instead I drew out my Cryo Driver and played defensive moves. I didn't rush, I simply fired one at a time and dodge attacks patiently. It took a long time to wipe them out, but I didn't die that time, not once.

-One day I entered another Devilish Drudgery, with the same weapons equipped. I forgot how many people was in my party, but I'm sure there is one or two. I kept my Strike Needle fired all the time, and this time I completely entered "reckless" mode. I didn't even bother to use my Cryo, I wanted to end things quick. I think you know what happens next.

There is one key thing to deal with devilites: patience. Whether it's about patience of waiting, blocking, attacking, or even running away, you are completely assured of survival. If you rush, you tend to forget about your own safety.

In fact, patience is important in everything, but you would need it most when you encounter fiends. You may be overpowered physically, but as long as you hold still and act calmly, you will still get the upper-hand.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 02:39

#21

Twiddle

happened to me recently.

Oh yeah, I'll add more since this topic is on the main page again. Recently, I was running a fiendish passage. I got to a place where you have enemies trapped inside of breakable blocks. I cut away a block then immediately shield canceled. I kept my shield up. The devilite standing 2 squares away in the area I just opened attacked. It started to attack shortly after I put up my shield. Before I put up my shield, it was just standing there doing nothing. No purple lines, no furniture visible, no sound, nothing. It attacks. Attack ignores my shield. I take damage.

Such incidents are normal with my connection speed. This is not lag. I play with a two bar connection. I feel bad for those with one bar connections.

I can take other enemies in the clockworks because they have one or more of the following traits:

they give warnings and attack slowly.
(I can shield and/or dodge before the attack hits me.)
.
they are predictable.
(I can lead them or shield because I know the attack is coming)
.
they are melee and can be taken out with ranged attacks.
(T3 gremlins)

Compare this with devilites:

They give little warning and attack quickly.
(It is too late to shield, dodge, and/or counterattack when you see them starting to attack. You need to react before the enemy gives any indication that they are about to attack. You have to dodge/shield/counterattack when they are standing there doing nothing.)
.
They are unpredictable
(When should you shield or dodge? They could attack at any time. The best you can do is shield when you are close and attack while their attack is on cooldown.)
.
They are ranged
(They can hit you even if you are far away.)

This = unfair with any kind of latency. I learned how to compensate by staying far away from them (giving myself more reaction time,) using a very strong shield, running around a lot, and by using a gun with a fast bullet. But, something tells me that's not how they are supposed to be fought. Really, they are broken at high latency and need to be fixed.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 02:15

#22

Zxze

i seriousIy IoI'd at this

*For friendly NPCs, they don't follow you around, they follow any enemies they can see within their line of sight. If they follow you, they should stick rather close to you.*

If they stick closer to you and get shocked, you get shocked too and hence, you die of shock :D
ok maybe not die of shock, but damn its annoying in the middIe of fighting some fiends.
To tell the truth there have been many threads about giving mecha knights a buff.
Im totaIIy with that so....

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 04:37

#23

Asukalan

"Much easier, a little

"Much easier, a little easier, whatever its all NERF,"
same with "They can still be hard, but not that hard."

Sorry, returning to Haven doesn't cut it. It costs energy to go deeper, and the rewards increase with the depth, so going to Haven to skip devilites just isn't worth it.
- Sorry, its your problem, if you know you cant take devilites you should not go there.

@twiddle nice looking wall of text

"I can take other enemies in the clockworks because they have one or more of the following traits:" so?? Good for you.

Why you all insist on making fiends just like the other monsters in clockworks?

Fiends are unique. Its natural selection of clockworks. They separate tactic-less knights from those who can think before they rush into fight.

All other monsters attack slower? So what? Fiends have their own ways of dealing with things.

Other monsters are predictable? So what again? Fiends actually are predictable, they rise hand with various object before they throw anything. If you actually would try fight them, with proper tactic and equipment instead of fainting on first sight of them you would learn how fiends work.

They are ranged? So? Is there a rule that no devilite can be ranged enemy?

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 06:28

#24

Hexzyle

@Asukalan

You could have just typed "whatever" and still have the same amount of content in that last post

In fact, all your posts are the same :\

Same mindset, same quotes, same attitude. Seriously, it just gets stale. Every time I see your name I prepare myself for another mundane and repetitive post.
I don't like to attack peoples styles of writing but yours is plain annoying. When are you going to input any of your own ideas?
Have you ever even created a thread? (Not a rhetorical question, I will gladly follow any links)

The only time i see you not critisizing with extreme prejiduce (which you don't even do constructively) is when you're sympathizing after a nerf.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 10:07

#25

Thinslayer

@Asukalan, if I'm not

@Asukalan, if I'm not mistaken, devilite levels occur in almost every gate. Skipping them is, at best, very difficult. So no, that still doesn't cut it, and furthermore, it's not our problem, it's the devs problem.

We don't want devilites to be just like every other monster in the clockworks. We'd like them to be similar only in that they provide sufficient warning before an attack. Otherwise, I appreciate their uniqueness and challenge.

If you read my posts again, you'll see the two options: devilites could either 1) reduce the speed of the launch or 2) give a moment's warning before launch. With the latter choice, fiends don't have to slow down their attacks at all. The only difference is that the players get fair warning of them.

I agree that devilites are predictable (to some extent). They always were; that's not really the problem. In fact, I can usually guess with about 50% certainty whether a devilite is going to attack me. The problem is not so much unpredictability as it is lack of any warning before an attack. In other words, I can guess whether I'm going to be attacked, not when. The "when" is the most important part for the sake of timing a dodge move.

All enemies should be destructible with all weapon types. Even Vanaduke can be hit with swords in all his phases, provided that the fireballs are extinguished. Isn't it unfair that gunners always have the advantage over devilites (particularly devilite mobs)? Sure, swordsmen can take them on in small numbers, but mobs are well-nigh impossible to kill with a sword without dying (for ordinary players, defined in my last post).

@Devil-Xtreme, the reason I was thinking that mecha knights should stick close to us is because they have a tendency to get left behind. You're not the only one who's posed the shock problem, though, so I think I'll revise my stance a little bit: mecha knights should always try to stay within a certain (non-shock close) distance of the player.

@Hexzyle, that's an interesting compromise. I'm wondering if the "slight nerf" needs to be more specific, though. The limited rotation rate would fit the bill, I think, because it's still dangerous to be in front of wolvers and zombies, but they would be dodgeable, adding an interesting skill element to these enemies.

@Schattentag, If Greaver hazes can be blocked now, then the wiki needs to be corrected. I may do some experiments on this. I used to rage about the wolvers' turning while biting, but I grew used to it, and even started to appreciate it for the challenge. If the devs put it back, I won't complain, but I think it could stand to be nerfed a bit.

@Snowdusk, I completely agree, patience is the name of the game with devilites. In fact, I think that's true of any fiend, if you think about it. Try bum-rushing a Trojan, sword-spamming Greavers, or crushing Silkwings in the middle of a mob if there's any doubt about that. :P

@Twiddle, I think you've stated the problem very neatly and concisely (unlike me :D). I personally find it almost impossible to fight devilites with high latency; heck, I can hardly fight anything with 1-2 bars of it! Some players can do it, though, so I think that I just need practice. I like to use a gun when I've got high latency so I don't have to risk getting too close with a sword and failing to shield in time.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 10:14

#26

Thinslayer

A sidenote about enemies that turn while attacking

Zombies and wolvers used to be very dangerous with that ability. I had figured out how to dodge these attacks: combo -1 swing, shield (hopefully bumping), back off to avoid the bite/swipe, rinse and repeat. Am I the only one who used that strategy?

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 10:28

#27

Thinslayer

@Hexzyle

To be fair to Asukalan, while I would agree that he often criticizes with prejudice, he doesn't always:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/50344

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 13:25

#28

Hexzyle

@Thinslayer

"is when you're sympathizing after a nerf.

Although it is a crown nerf, which is unlike Asukalan to not rage at a "buff crowns" thread. Probably it's because it's a case of "don't fix it if it ain't broken"

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 13:37

#29

Hexzyle

@Thinslayer

"Unless he's sympathizing after a nerf"

But he's not raging on a "buff crowns" thread...but I guess it falls under the lines of "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 13:44

#30

Hexzyle

Triple post

My internet just trolled me pretty damn good.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 15:31

#31

Earthboundimmortal

for friendly NPC's

for friendly NPC's there should be newspaper person to sell you papers.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 17:03

#32

Thinslayer

Anyways...

So, here's my refined ideas for the Mecha Knight AI:

They should always try to stay within 2 squares of the player.
If they spot an enemy within a certain radius (maybe the current one), they will break off from the player and begin charging their weapon.
When they get close, they will attempt to combo the enemy.
When any kind of ranged attack from an enemy comes their way, they will attempt to sidestep it (this includes gremlin bombs, thrown thwack hammers, and other enemy shots).
Just before a shot reaches the danger zone (the zone where shielding is too slow to stop a shot), the mecha knight will attempt to shield against it.

The only change I recommend for Devilites is that they provide a moment's warning before launching an attack. That is all I ask for regarding them.

Criticism?

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Devilite Attack Warnings, Mecha Knight AIs