Spiral Knights - Sluggish Iron Slug numbers.

Sluggish Iron Slug numbers.

11 replies [Last post]

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 17:03

The-Rawrcake

**Nothing below should be entirely accepted, because I am using minimal testing. Also, remember that this is when we are unloading our full clip, a well as spamming a "training dummy". We do not always unload our clip, and we do not always spam a "training dummy". In addition, I am using numbers from a wiki (which I usually do not) so they have a good chance to be inaccurate. As for combos / minute go, I used Very High ASI, as that is what most gunners might achieve with their gear.

From my small, minimal and possibly inaccurate and not to be accepted but just to be used to get a basic idea tests:

At VH ASI, Iron Slug had 31 combos / minute.

At VH ASI, Nova had 38 combos / minute.

**My Iron Slug is not fully heated, so I had to snag numbers off of a wiki. As I said before, the wiki may be inaccurate as it always has that chance. These numbers are with the guns heated at 10, and with absolutely no damage bonus

Iron Slug damage per bullet, taken from wiki, 131.

Nova damage per bullet, taken from wiki, 205 when you take advantage of a monster's weaknesses.

Iron Slug, with 2 bullets per clip, had a total of 62 shots / minute.

Nova, with 2 bullets per clip, had a total of 76 shots / minute.

**Please not that this conclusion does not include alchemers hitting the same enemy twice. The reason behind using a Nova and an Iron Slug for this test is because both guns don't offer utility, just damage (excluding the tiny knockback on Iron Slug's charge attack).

So Iron Slug did 8,122 damage in a minute. Nova did 15,580 in a minute.

Now, do keep in mind what I said earlier. Alchemers have the potential to deal damage to the same enemy twice, though it is unpredictable and sometimes not doable.

An alchemer also offers great AoE potential with split bullets and ricochet.

An alchemer also has a much more desirable charge attack that also allows for more mobility while charging, as well as quicker to fire off the shot so less "root".

An alchemer also provides more survivability, due to mobility while firing.

And now for the conclusion with a tiny bit more basic math. Keep in mind what I stated above, this is ignoring alchemer shots double clipping same monster.

48% less DPS than an alchemer taking advantage of a monster's weakness.

Noting that these tests were not entirely accurate and not for all damage bonus / ASI bonus situations, we can safely say "Iron Slug is roughly 50% less DPS than using an Alchemer for single target damage while not taking double clipping into account"

Bravo, Iron Slug. Bravo.

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Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:20

Korakc

Nice, finally I can rage about how bad Iron Slug is and have proof :D

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:22

Milkman

I'm guessing you compared it

I'm guessing you compared it to the alchemer series because they are the only other line with a 2 shot clip? Personally I don't think that the Iron slug will ever be able to match the umbra/nova driver and callahan if you are specialising for monster weaknesses. What it needs is a new/different mechanic. Anyway I think more useful tests would be:

1) To account for a lack of specialisation (ie. use damage numbers for monsters that the nova is weak/neutral to and average them)

2) Compare the callahan to the the nova/umbra drivers against monsters that each is respectively strong against.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:23

Metagenic

any point in buffing this?

It's basically a Magnus for slimes and constructs, neither of which you should be using a non-mobile gun on. So I don't see any point in buffing the Iron Slug.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:45

The-Rawrcake

@Milkman I see your

@Milkman

I see your arguement, looks like I will need to heat up my slug for more tests that are more comparable.

I really badly want to compare it to a Nova hitting something it is neutral to... but chances are I will have to heat up my Iron Slug to 10 before I can compare the two, since wiki doesn't have many numbers up for no damage / 10 heat for a Nova. For the tests that I used in the original post, I just snagged numbers off of the wiki since my slug wasn't fully heated.

So I will work on that and compare an Iron Slug vs. Nova Driver against something the Nova is neutral against.

For now, you can use the numbers I already have in the original post to compare an Iron Slug vs. Nova Driver against something it is good against.

Milkman, the original reason I compared the two is because I thought since both Nova and Slug are dps-based (though slug can interrupt attacks and such, so it has a bit of utility I overlooked) I would just compare the two so people can see why their Nova is so much better against the correct enemies.

I agree with you on Slug getting new mechanics.

After I get the tests of neutral Nova vs. Iron Slug (obviously being neutral as it is normal damage), then we can see wether or not it really needs a DPS buff.

Right now, it definately is in need of a helpful mechanic.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:43

The-Rawrcake

First, OOPS DOUBLE POST this

First, OOPS DOUBLE POST this totally was on accident, I swear!

@Metagenic,

Just because a gun is useless doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't deserve any attention at all and it should just burn a hole in the 5* categories of the wiki.

If something really needs buffed, it should get buffed.

Comparable to Suda getting buffed. You could argue how dumb it is to get a Suda instead of DA / GF to cover all damage types but DA and GF are faster and still deal more damage even on neutral stuff. Either way, it still deserves the buff Suda got (and it still needs its normal attacks buffed).

Let's take the "best" four guns that a gunner would use based on their own preferences and beliefs. If a gun is buffed that is terrible and isn't part of pretty much anyone's four guns just because it was so terrible, it doesn't change the game.

Instead, what happens is the gun becomes more in line with those cookie cutter guns. This starts to give competition for the cookie cutter stuff, and you do not want to have cookie cutter / best items for a game. You want balance. And when you have balance, it makes the game better.

BUT this is my opinion. Many people have their arguements for why it is silly to buff useless stuff, because they themselves do not use it, and that is fine I understand your logic.

However, many people like to use the bad stuff then try their luck at getting their voice out there and getting it the buff it desperately needs. Tsubasa is a great example of these people, and Tsubasa + Suda is an inspiration for us who like a weapon just because we like it. Not because it is cookie cutter.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:44

Demonicsothe

I wasn't aware the magnus

I wasn't aware the magnus line was for dps. I thought they were for safety, allowing you to sling a hard hitting shot before retreating to safety. And the mechanic that makes enemies somehow not dodge it unless you miss.

But they do need a buff, at least in damage.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 19:49

The-Rawrcake

@Demonic that is Callahan

@Demonic that is Callahan because it is piercing and dodgers are piercing weak or neutral.

The only reason Callahan is "the safest piercing 5* gun" is because all of the other piecing guns are even less safe xD

Iron Slug is an all around use weapon, which is really why I need to be comparing it to a Nova against, say, a slime instead of an undead. Which is what I will try to do next. The results from there will be what really determines if it needs that damage buff.

Until then, it could still use some useful mechanic to go along with its interrupting.

Sat, 03/31/2012 - 20:30

Tsubasa-No-Me

WHOOOOO!!!!!!

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.

Ummm... The Magnus is not very good at damaging neutral targets, and the Iron Slug does exactly the same damage as a Callahan... on Neutral targets.

What the Iron Slug needs is is something to put it into its own niche. It needs and update like the Suda, which made the Suda into the Go To weapon for crowds. Sure, the DA can keep a crowd back, but the Suda controls where that crowd goes; and they don't get spread out as much.

What I'm trying to say is it needs its on over head smash... in a way ;3

My fix

Make the shots, on impact or max range, Spawn an explosion the size of a proto bomb. Reduce the damage down to 100. No, it wouldn't act lit a polaris or supernova at all... No knockback, only Interrupt. This will make it a very situational gun, good for crowds, and keeping things down.
Make the Interrupt factor much higher; high enough to interrupt with one round in a four Knight party.*
Let the charge stun (Not normal shots) and fire three of those Knight sized bullets in the same manner as a DA, but instant.

*On the subject of Interruption
Interruption SEEMS to be based on Damage, but its a little more complicated then that. Pre-patch, the Suda's charge did a little less then 500 damage, but barely ever interrupted anything. But now, the first hit of the stun, which does ~100 LESS DAMAGE, almost always interrupts everything. Trojans, Lumbars, all machines.... Everything. This leads me to believe that there is something else making the Weapons Interrupt.

...Can you tell I'm from the suggestions forum?

Not only am I famous, but I inspire Hipster...ness... Yeah.
~Tsu

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 08:12

The-Rawrcake

What I noticed with the iron

What I noticed with the iron slug, is in FSC for the one level I was using all Iron Slug, the red rovers would be interrupted only if I fired off both of my shots in the clip.

In a jelly run, the gun puppies were interrupted on the first bullet that I shot off.

When shot at the jellies on the same jelly run, the second bullet would make the jellies do a little glorp thing and make them pause for a moment, and cancel their attack.

But, with the test on the red rover and the actual jelly cube, they were interrupted if and only if I fired off an entire clip onto them.

Sun, 04/01/2012 - 11:25

#10

Zenewk

Good to see some folks dont

Good to see some folks dont lose interest in Iron Slug, I've made a topic a while ago with some suggestion, if some1 interested enough (that they might actually spent some time reading it) click this one:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/48634

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 18:06

#11

The-Rawrcake

iron slug wants moar dmges

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Sluggish Iron Slug numbers.