Spiral Knights - So, Beast Arenas

So, Beast Arenas

28 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 21:29

Mejezfeld

I did a T2 Beast Arena yesterday and

>Gremlins (the last wave in 3rd stage was a horde of Gremlin Demos)
>Toxic Polyps
>Blight Knights

Yeah I actually kind of knew that was going to happen so I ran the level with my Silent Nightblade and Graviton instead (I only have two slots).

Isn't it kind of really counter-intuitive though? In a BAD way? You get told that the BEST way to deal with Beasts is Pierce damage... So you go and get one of those pokeystick ninnyswords (that is if you didn't already get one... and given that LD is a little less of a rapid-fire barrage of blunt force traumas to the sensitive regions when you're using one, you definitely will)

and then 2/3 of the enemies that aren't Chromas or Wolvers resist piercing (and those two out of three happen to be the ones that become utter [illegitimate offspring]s when they occur in a large group and therefore need to be eliminated quickly.)

Heck 2/3 of the turret enemies in this entire game resist pierce! Unless you're wise to this somewhat nutty enemy spawning you're pretty much screwed if you ever have to deal with turrets and all you have is a pierce damage weapon.

Just an observation... There was a lot of concern that Arsenal stations would make things too easy when they first came out... except given that this kind of thing still happens and there still is a lot of lag and bug-induced fake difficulty in the game, they've done jack [excrement], really...

what do you guys think?

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 21:47

Sireez

my opinion

I don't think it is bad. More because I've gotten used to it. Over time playing SK, I've noticed certain types of enemies tend to spawn with others which is something I keep in mind when prepping for arenas or Danger Rooms. I think its a cool aspect an means you can't specifically rely on one damage type.

Like in Fiendish Fray arenas, I instantly think ghost cats and undead so Final Flourish and Voltaic Tempest are my top choices. I think if the arena was entirely exactly what the title implies in that its pure fiend it kind of takes away from the fun. its not totally random, there are some patterns and tendencies to what spawns with what... from what I've seen anyway.

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 22:03

Mejezfeld

except Undead and Fiends are

except Undead and Fiends are at least NEUTRAL to each other's weakness and share a resistance and thematically they DO fit with each other.

With Beasts and Jellies both deal pierce damage however one is resistant to it and the other is weak to it.

Thematically... not sure but since they're both "organic" I guess they KINDA fit, but their resistances man, their resistances.

But Mecha Knights don't fit in with wolves or chameleons or gelatinous blobs at all thematically or damage-wise. They haven't got the same excuse as Zombies and Kats to be appearing alongside Devilites and Greavers, because "DOGS AND ROBOTS" doesn't have the same ring as "GHOSTS AND GOBLINS"

Tue, 04/03/2012 - 23:40

Batabii

They really need a turret

They really need a turret that's weak to piercing. I think it was a little redunant to make two weak to elemental.

Also speaking of mecha knights, I'm 90% sure at least a handful appear in every arena regardless.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 00:36

Jimbo-Jambo

"They really need a turret that's weak to piercing. I think it was a little redunant to make two weak to elemental."

The problem is that the current setup of monster damages, weaknesses, and resistances makes it impossible to have a perfect triad of all three damage types with just three families. Both shadow-dealing monster families are strong against shadow, and the only other two monster families that are strong against the damage they deal (gremlin and slime) both happen to be weak against shadow, leaving you with no turrets weak against either piercing or elemental depending on whether undead or fiend fills your shadow-dealing requirement.

So yeah, they could have made a beast or fiend turret instead of a jelly one, either of which would be weak against piercing, but then nothing would be weak to shadow.

EDIT: Although you can't get a perfect triad, replacing slime with beast actually seems the most fair. You'd be replacing piercing resistance and shadow weakness with elemental resistance and piercing weakness. Although nothing is weak to shadow anymore, only one turret is strong against it, which is better than having two strong to piercing. And also although you still have two elemental weaknesses, you now have one elemental resistance which helps to balance it a bit.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 00:38

Mejezfeld

One solution would be to have

One solution would be to have six different types of turrets instead of three so that each family has a turret

but that would clearly complicate things. and well it would be hard to come up with a turret for Gremlins

Fiends can get a totem pole thing instead of a skeleton thing and Beasts can get a plant-themed turret... but what would Gremlins get?

seriously Gremlins are weird

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 00:45

Jimbo-Jambo

^
I personally imagine a beast turret being some kind of porcupine-type thing that pops out of a hole in the ground to launch spines. You're right about gremlins though. The only way I can really imagine a gremlin turret (besides some poor crippled gremlin who can't move, but that's just cruel) would be some kind of manned fixed gun emplacement, but then that's obviously more construct than gremlin.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 00:54

Mejezfeld

The Gremlin turret can just

The Gremlin turret can just be a Knocker or two manning a turret gun and when you defeat it Knockers spill out all over the place.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 02:50

Asukalan

There is no such things like

There is no such things like beast arena. There is Beastly Brawl. It suggest you that there will be beasts there but dont says there will be ALWAYS beasts there.

Besides mixing enemies into arena gives it more challenge, you are closed you cant change weapons. Deal with it or avoid arenas. Simple as that.

Oh god, what will be now? Newbs and crybabies after doing 'arena for people less clever' aka Gaunlet and then landing in regular arena will storm the forum and cry that the name of arena was XXX but they got diffrent monsters inside of it?

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 03:38

Mejezfeld

I'm not sure what Asuclam

I'm not sure what Asuclam just said but I think he meant to say "no there is nothing objectively bad about sending out robots when we are told to expect wolves and lizards".

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 03:56

#10

Twiddle

When I started playing, I remember *mumble mumble*... zzzzzz

This is why I love normal damage. You never run into such problems when you are running with normal damage weapons. wolvers, gun puppies, jelly cubes, gremlins, zombies, doesn't matter. They all fear the utility of normal damage.

I also think the arsenal change stations have made the game much easier. They may not help much when you're running though beast arenas, but it really, really helps elsewhere. This is especially true in status strata. Before, for example, when you would run though a poison strata, you might run though a wasteworks: slimeway one minute then a Devilish Drudgery: Toxic Workplace the next. You would have to run all that with the same loadout and plan accordingly. Now, you just change your gear at the start of every level.

In addition, they've changed how monsters spawn. Before it wasn't uncommon to get the occasional horde of frozen shamblers spawning in the middle of your oiler infested blast furnace, or to get your Gremlin danger room in the middle of your mechanized mile levels. I used to love how these little things forced you to adjust on the fly and punished you if you overspecialized. But now all the spawns are predictable and the arsenal change stations are at the start of each level. I understand why they did it, but still I love having things mixed up every now and again.

Of course, the sky islands and the concrete jungles were fun too. The sky islands had slimes, constructs, gremlins, and beasts spawning in the same level. The concrete jungles had undead, slimes, and beasts all over the place (again, all in the same level.) They have since standardized these levels so only a few monster types spawn in them.

...Ahh, the good old days. (=

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 04:00

#11

Mejezfeld

This just in Twiddle The

This just in Twiddle

The Concrete jungles STILL have Slimes in them and at one point I saw a Sick Puppy in one of them.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 04:15

#12

Griseolar

Bombs ftw~

"I'm not sure what Asuclam just said but I think he meant to say "no there is nothing objectively bad about sending out robots when we are told to expect wolves and lizards"."

I'm surprised you were able to decipher that much. All I got was "I woke up on the wrong side of bed today.".

Back on topic, since you only have 2 weapon slots, it's best to bring a Normal damage type sword as nothing resists it. For your second weapon slot, you could bring in a freeze vapo if you're having trouble with crowd control, or a fiery vapo for situations where freezing isn't going to cut it (the final wave of the 3rd part in arenas, for example).

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 04:24

#13

Merethif

+1 to Asukalan and Twiddle, I

+1 to Asukalan and Twiddle,
I agree with both of them.

I don't like the way developers streamlined monsters in Aurora Isles and other levels. I used to play with two slots for a half a year and there were no arsenal stations those days so I know what I'm talking about.

Remember that Cradle is UNNATURAL creation, not natural world. It is a patchwork made of shattered pieces of other worlds so beings from different worlds exist next to each other and it fits thematically, whether you like it or not. The cradle is a creation of some superior being that gone mad - robots running with wild beats and undeads side by side - you call it illogical. Good - I'd expect such illogicality from a world created out of pure madness. Next time read what those NPC are saying instead of skipping it.
That's all about theme-wise talking.

If we're talking about damage-wise it's pretty much a question whether you'd like a game for normal gamers or, as Askulan said, for half-witted crybabies. All those monsters nerfs we got since beta have already removed almost any challenge and fun factor from SK and I really do think that we don't need more of such streamlining.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 04:45

#14

Mejezfeld

Merethif I've been around

Merethif I've been around since a little after the game launched proper

and personally I don't feel any real difference in difficulty before or after the Arsenal station was added...

then again I'm in SEA... where are you guys from?

and... didn't these same NPCs and/or the Devs establish that the levels/worlds are still somewhat segregated and thus aren't totally chaotic? They're contained in "skydomes", that get placed at different depths according to a set of rules, darnit.

and... gameplay wise it's ALWAYS been
>>put in certain minerals.
>>certain strata will get certain themes based on which minerals were put in them.
>>levels will conform to one or both themes that apply to the strata they lie in.

there can be some inconsistency between one level AND THE NEXT for sure, but that is no excuse for a lack of consistency WITHIN THE LEVEL ITSELF.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 05:14

#15

Amanzi

It appears that most Kats like calling people crybabies.

I remember when I was new and the first 3star sword I got was Twisted Snarble Barb because it looked cool. (Later when using it in LD for the first time, I was dubbed a toothpick spammer by anyone who used a different sword.) Since I was fairly new, all I knew was that beasts were weak against it and since the big wolfies could track me down and break my shield in an instant, I thought I was pretty smart choosing it over my 2star cutter when the Arena was called Beastly Brawl. (Who am I kidding, I always carried it and a ice bomb since Arsenal stations didn't exist.)
I soloed quite a few arenas and was always killed at least once by the turrets since it took forever to stab/freeze them to death. I soon learned that I should've crafted a sword that could actually be helpful in Tier 2 where the bosses, turrets, and most common enemies resist piercing damage but I was still too nooby to realize that almost every beast level has either huge trees or blobby turrets.

Now that I'm not so nooby and have some other swords to help me deal with the various types of monsters but I couldn't help but be a crybaby when it was always better to bring a 2star sword rather than my awesome barb I crafted with much love and CE.

I think that beast oriented arenas should have moar beasts in them. (Preferably add some new beasts 'cause new monsters are wonderful.) Keep the slimes and Gremlins in the arenas but have more of those geckos and wolfies. I want to be mobbed by things that will spit acid at my face or try ripping it off; I'm tired of always having to fear some glitchy robots and furries with bombs.

Bytheway, I like the arsenal stations. Now I can try out new weapons without being crippled by them for a bunch of floors.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 05:14

#16

Kraanx

dude stop whining. kill

dude stop whining.
kill EVERYTHING, with ANYTHING.
vials count.
arena-wise, the 3rd room last spawn is nicely solved with shock or fire, since shock spreads in the crowd and fire dmgs a bit more

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 05:17

#17

Twiddle

They're invasive species. d=

If spirals and gremlins can travel between levels, I don't see why other mob types can't. Besides, arenas appear to be constructed to give you a challenge. Whoever is constructing them would have likely taken enemies from other worlds and placed them in the arena. This means there should be some variety in the monsters you in that arena, even if the arena has a specific theme to it.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 05:24

#18

Juances

This is why there are weapon slot upgrades. Why even carry 2 weapons if if the levels are going to have 1 enemy.

Besides it would be dull without variation and randomness.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 07:22

#19

Nordlead

what I think is that you are

what I think is that you are complaining and crying about something you knew well about but can't handle. I think it is really sad honestly that you can't handle the simple combination of pierce and non-pierce resistant monsters. Anyone who's played even T1 knows that wolvers are either accompanied by either jelly or construct turrets in most situations. So, the answer is always bring shadow or normal if you only are going to bring one weapon type. If you can't handle this, maybe you should go back to T1 and re-do your training.

Fact, Arenas always have gremlins or constructs. If you can't handle that, don't go to an arena. For having been around since the game was luanched proper, you should have known this.

Oh, and crying about lag because you are outside of the serviced area and asking for nerfs because of it is really sorta sad because you are asking to ruin the game for everyone else. Sorry, OOO is currently not properly servicing your area, but making this game into princess fun land so you don't die isn't the answer. Ask for a server instead.

That is what I think.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 07:41

#20

Merethif

@Mejezfeld

Merethif I've been around since a little after the game launched proper
and personally I don't feel any real difference in difficulty before or after the Arsenal station was added...
then again I'm in SEA... where are you guys from?

Ok, I agree that servers are probably big difficulty factor. Game is much easier for me since there is European server and I really endorse Asia/Oceania server. But sometimes I join my Canadian/American friends on US server and still I see the difference in difficulty. If Alpha Wolvers are no more thread it's partly because of European server were introduced, partly because I'm becoming more skilled player, learning on my mistakes and gaining experience, but also partly because they can't any more change direction during attack.

and... didn't these same NPCs and/or the Devs establish that the levels/worlds are still somewhat segregated and thus aren't totally chaotic?

Worlds are somewhat segregated but still some leaks are possible and should be expected. Especially in artificial levels purely constructed by Gremlins like Clockwork Tunnels and Arenas.

I always expect Menders and Polyps in beastly Clockworks/Arenas. As well as I expect Silkwings on undead Clockworks/Arenas and Howlitzers on fiendish Clockworks/Arenas. You never expect only one monster family. But even with two slots you can always be well prepared. You can equip Normal weapon and weapon for most expected enemies. Or even bring two specialize weapons. For a long time I was playing with Volt Driver and Mega Magnus only. Magnus was good against beasts, fiends and gremlins and Volt Driver was good against undead, constructs and slimes. Only when I was expecting Quicksilvers I used to replace one of them with Master Blaster. Once several Quicksilvers spawned in Fiends/Shock level so I had to deal with them with Mega Magnus. It was challenging, but I'd call it enjoyable rather then frustrating.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any tweaking in Arena spawns but I just don't see it as really big deal as it is now. Arenas are a bit special case then let's say Scarlet Fortress. As I understand, Arenas were constructed by Gremlins as a form of deadly trap or maybe some sort of wicked enteitermant (like Roman gladiators fights). That's why gremlins and constructs always has a high chance to appear on Arena. Note that monsters are put into several categories and not every family have a monster in every category. More about Arena categories here.
So apart from Theme Monsters you also have to face several Heavies, Turrets, Healers and Fighters (name Fighters sounds a bit awkward, I prefer to call it Arena Personnel/Staff). There are only two Heavies so only two families are covered. Same goes with Healers. Only three families have Turrets. And Arena Staff is composed of gremlins and their creations exclusively. Yes, things get a bit more complicated here but with great rewards comes great thread. I think Arenas have greater payout for a reason.

TL;DR: I'm not saying there shouldn't be any tweaking in Arena spawns but I find it mostly all right as it is now.

Wed, 04/04/2012 - 11:31

#21

Jimbo-Jambo

"There is no such things like

"There is no such things like beast arena. There is Beastly Brawl. It suggest you that there will be beasts there but dont says there will be ALWAYS beasts there."

I wasn't going to respond until I read the rest of your unnecessarily snide post, but now I feel I need to point out how idiotic this is. It's beast-themed, appears in beast strata, and yes, always has beasts in it, so "beast arena" is accurate. That's like saying Devilish Drudgery isn't guaranteed to have devilites in it because it doesn't have "devilite" in the name, even though Devilish Drudgeries are nothing but devilites.

While I agree that splashing some other families in there adds to the challenge and gives it some welcome variety, unfailingly having waves of mecha-knights doesn't exactly scream "variety" to me. Suddenly it becomes not "prepare for anything," but "prepare for constructs." Doesn't bother me personally since I never leave home without my glacius, but I can imagine how awful it would be if God forbid someone went into a beast arena with a flourish and nothing but a blaster to deal with constructs and jellies. Two piercing-resistant monsters is a bit harsh for a level where piercing weakness is expected.

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 00:07

#22

Mejezfeld

We seriously need a new mob

We seriously need a new mob to take the place of/appear alongside the Mecha Knights.

I mean, we did end up making TWO new turrets, might as well create a new Knight-mimic thing

if they weren't graveyard-exclusive and unkillable I'd say we give the Phantoms some more action by putting them in Fiend/Undead Arenas.

We need a special hard mode dungeon/feature for people like Merethif and Asuclam who complain the game has gotten too easy- endless waves of buffed enemies all wearing special black shiny Wolver leather armors and slightly altered tactics and all enemies with swords/melee weapons now use whips with altered/extended reach.

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 01:32

#23

Merethif

There's a difference between

There's a difference between "making game more difficult" and "not nerfing it" - I just think the difficulty level was all right on April 1st 2011.
I don't need things to get harder but threads like this really gives me the creeps. It's not that I'm pro and everything is easy. If I encounter obstacle I'm doing step back and learn a things or two on easier levels before proceeding - not trying to persuade the world that obstacle is overpowered because I can't overcome it first try.

Also extreme streamlining makes level dull and boring (the case with Aurora Isles). See how dull Wolver Dens are - you don't have to switch weapon at all there. Where's the fun?

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 02:51

#24

Thescrub

beastly brawl

getting tons of gremlins, constructs and slimes is pretty par for the course in that arena

which is why I take a snarblebarb AND a shadowtech alchemer

most of the turrets are Polyps
most of the healers are gremlins

Knights can be kited
Polyps taken out in maybe 2 alchemer bursts (2 star alchemer)
Gremlins and beasts can be taken out with the snarblebarb (4 snarble hits for gremlins and about 3 for most beasts)

at least on T2
I never have to use a vial but it helps the arena go by faster

though I have to admit it caught me off guard the first time and taking out anything proved difficult when I had snarble and firotech alchemer (Polyps taking more hits and menders ignoring me)

I'm just repeating my personal experience here
but pretty important for any level is taking either standard weapons or 2 damage types instead of just 1

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 09:28

#25

Zincknight

HHm

I think its intentional how the arenas have mecha or gremlin regardless of theme and its just something you learn through experience. I dont see any need to change existing arenas but what i would like is addition of other types of arenas that have other units as the basic fighter. they should be with different background theme/ music trap placement and size but still retaining the 3 room system if this is implemented it would be awesome XD

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 13:08

#26

Hijadestone

i did the same arena

i expected slimes beasts and constructs but 12 gremlen demos is rediculos i died 8 times one time there was a ring of 20 bombs around me i had half my health and full sheild my sheild was crused and i was a smoldering pile

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 13:13

#27

Hijadestone

void

Thu, 04/05/2012 - 13:52

#28

Halandin

Yeah, I remember getting 12

Yeah, I remember getting 12 demos plus a couple healers for the last stage of the last area in a Beast arena at the end of tier 2. Soooo much lag, but a fiery vaporizer mk eventually out-dps'd the healers.

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So, Beast Arenas