Spiral Knights - Fiends...why is it always fiends...

Fiends...why is it always fiends...

37 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 13:33

Pdtopgun

While on my current endeavor to eke out enough CE to craft my 5* helm and armor, and thus finally be able to continue through the missions, I've been trying to take on more T3 runs, if for no other reason than to be able to find a Sun Silver for once instead of having to buy them. Somewhat of a side goal for me has been attempting to pull off the Gold Survivor achievement, making a full T3 run without dying. I've been playing the game long enough that I'm fairly decent at it, and I think I have the skill-set and the gear to pull it off. Over the past week or two, almost all of the gates have featured a T3 with at least one strata chock-full of fiends, which is pretty much a lolno. Finally, this most recent gate gives me a chance, as it has a haunted theme for stratum 5, and slimes/beast for 6. (Woo good times.) I probably should have pulled it off last night, but I got masochistic in the first arena I came across, and decided to go for all three rooms instead of wussing out after the second...taking on the final stage of a deep T3 arena solo is not the best idea in the world. But lesson learned, and maybe I'll manage it tonight.

That's not really the point of this thread, though. My real point here is to gripe that, even with a "Haunted" theme for stratum 5 of this gate, I'm STILL getting assaulted by the odd group of fiends in the Clockworks-type levels. I mean, the Candlestick Keep levels can be a real nerve-wracking grindfest, but about the only thing that's managed to kill me have been those damnable Greavers and Devilites. The jury's still out on which of the two I loathe more, but what I do know is that having the two most broken enemy types in the game appear in yet another T3 gate is starting to drive me crazy. I have to wonder if a couple of guilds out there just like setting up the gates that way for the lulz, or if everyone's just mashing "Sell All" like I do and generating the same unfortunate results every time. Either way...urrrrgh.

And before everyone gets into the whole "get better gear" or "play better stuff," yes, I know, whatever. But I'm still fully convinced that both of these groups of enemies have fundamentally-flawed mechanics. What really makes me chuckle is that both zombies and wolvers, two groups of enemies with fairly-predictable attacks, received decent nerfs, yet these scourges of the Clockworks haven't been tweaked at all. Maybe they'll be up for some well-deserved takedowns in the future, but until then, I avoid their tiers like the plague, and I cry a bit to myself every time I'm forced to deal with them in T3.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 13:36

Fallconn

FALCON PUNCH!

Fiends are really Gm's, this is how they let off steam, they disguise themselves as little trolls with pitchforks, and make you ragequit!

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 13:42

Pdtopgun

At this point, that wouldn't

At this point, that wouldn't really surprise me. :D

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 13:44

Extribble

If it's Devilish Drudgery,

If it's Devilish Drudgery, CSK, Dark City, or Concrete Jungle, you'll get fiends OR undead.

Any general type level, like the Clockwork Tunnels will mix Fiends and Undead on the same levels, whether it be labeled as one or the other does not matter. The only difference is that the "undead" themed one will have more undead than fiends, and the "fiend" theme will have more fiends than undead.

Been this way for quite a while. To be honest though, unless you're experiencing <2 bars of connection (which is considerable lag) you should be able to deal with fiends efficiently with enough practice. Yes they're harder, but I don't want them to get hit with the nerf-bat. I like having a challenge when I run into them :D

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 14:07

Pdtopgun

Ah, okay; I guess that mixing

Ah, okay; I guess that mixing makes sense, however unfortunate it might be. Kind of scary to think that I'd probably have better survivability if I wait for the Candlestick Keep levels.

And the thing is, while I can see the argument that there are ways to deal with fiends, I still think that there are elements of their mechanics that are extremely unbalanced when held up against every other monster type in the game. Devilites are very small and fast-moving, and that's fine...but then consider the fact that their projectiles move something like twice as fast as any other enemy's. One or two I can handle, but when I'm up against a whole pack of them, I never get the chance to focus on one at a time, since I'm getting assaulted by projectiles from completely off-screen that move too fast for me to dodge. The only real way to handle them is with an armor set with great elemental/shadow defense...which I unfortunately don't have. My poor Aegis can't withstand more than a few hits, and when one gets through, my Mighty Cobalt set gets nailed for 6 bars of damage and (it seems always) Fire or Shock status. Yeesh.

And Greavers...now you've got an enemy that bum-rushes the player en masse, delivers a strong short-range attack, plus leaves a status effect on the ground, so that it's extremely difficult to get away without being unscathed. The usual shield-and-run tactics don't work, since they're always rapidly swarming the player's position. While you can maybe theoretically get by with shield-bumping, that still leaves you vulnerable to all the others while you're trying to take out one, and again, my shield isn't exactly equipped to handle mass elemental damage.

Honestly, if I had my preferences, I'd keep almost everything the same with Devilites, but reduce their projectile speeds by half or so, so that the player actually stands a decent shot of dodging them or being able to shield in time. As for Greavers, they wouldn't be nearly as bad with those obnoxious status farts removed.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 14:34

Kitty-Softpaws

"Hey look! I'm going into a

"Hey look! I'm going into a devilite undercity stratum with piercing defense & a piercing shield for my high damage bonus those armors give!"

Mmmm... you have bananas jumping around in your mind but it intrigues me.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 14:41

Cryoworld

Cobalt gives damage bonuses

Cobalt gives damage bonuses now? That's news to me.

Anywho, if you're running around in a T3 shadow area with piercing armor, you're pretty much running naked in terms of defense. I'd recommend getting some skelly armor if you plan on tackling them and a pierce sword.

Also, the greavers attack can be stopped with a single swipe of a 5* sword, maybe 2 with a 4* one.

In all honesty, it sounds like you're going to need some shadow armor, or at least a piercing sword for these. I know these aren't words you want to hear, but you really are ill equipped to deal with T3 fiends.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 15:12

Kitty-Softpaws

@ Cryoworld

Pdtopgun is the one wearing wrong illed gear is what i meant in my sarcastic quotation example of why anyone would complain of a stratum difficulty.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 15:54

Halandin

Yeah, fiends are tough.

Yeah, fiends are tough. However, I think they seem to pay pretty well. There's a fiend arena in (I think) the gate all the way to the right in tier 2, stratum 4. It gave me about 6,200cr. O_O

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 15:58

Traevelliath

Different Mindset

IMO, Fiends are balanced, they just punish the average mindset of a SK player: Charge forward swinging swords.

For Devilites, I can easily breeze by untouched with just a Callahan and an FF (and maybe a good shield). If you charge at Devilites, their unpredictable chair flings will smash you down before you can even comprehend what just happened. Take a weapon like the Callahan, and just sidestep, shield canceling (sorta?) your shots, and taking your time. Stay far enough away, and suddenly you have the time to block an incoming office supply.

For Greavers, Hit and Run. You don't want to JUST run, you don't want to JUST hit. Greavers have little health and its rather easily to shake/pause them. You wait for the Greaver to swoop down at you, then take out a Flourish-type weapon, do a single swipe (shield cancel), and then back up as the Greaver finishes its attack. As long as I have space, Greavers are not a problem for me.

And then Trojans, which aren't often lumped with Fiends. The key with a Trojan is to taunt it. A Trojan will only (most of the time) attack when the person with the Trojan's Aggro is standing still. Simply stand about a screen-length away (still keeping a little bit of the Trojan on your screen so you can see when he is about to attack), and sidestep when the Trojan charges (taking the opportunity to jab his back a few times).

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 16:08

#10

Pdtopgun

I think you're kind of

I think you're kind of missing my overall point here. Trust me, I know that my current gear set is about the worst choice for a fiend-heavy stratum. I originally started on the Cobalt line because it was the default gear that Kozma used to sell, so it was the first set I knew anything about. (Plus, all else being equal, I love how it looks.) And now that I got all of the 5* recipes for it for free from the missions system, I'm taking advantage of that and working on getting a full 5* set so that I can continue on through them. After I get that taken care of, I'll start working on some more specialized armor.

The thing is, though...you have to make money to spend money, and doing higher-tier runs is the best way to do so. The trouble is when said runs happen to contain monster types that are (at best) intensely annoying and (at worst) flat-out broken. Obviously, I have an inherent weakness toward everything that isn't piercing damage, but I'm still able to get by just fine most of the time, simply because I know how to do the standard move/kite/attack routine well enough. I can take on elemental Slimes or shadow Zombies just fine with that, and avoid taking damage if I don't make a stupid mistake or have a random lag spike. However, unlike pretty much every other monster class in the game, you just can't deal with Devilites or Greavers via kiting...you're essentially forced to tank, which really sucks for those of us who don't have strong elemental/shadow defense.

My original point in making this thread is that the past four or five gates have all had a fiend-themed stratum in them, which has essentially locked me out from running them. And even this newest gate, which doesn't have that theme per se, still sees them pop up in them. I don't mind a challenge in the game, but what I do mind is enemies with unfair mechanics preventing me from even attempting whole gates.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 16:40

#11

Flists

Want money? Run FSC

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 16:50

#12

Treizeknight

Nerf them

Clearly there's a biased towards fiends in the latter stratas, there's only one choice.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 16:52

#13

Noomad

Both grievers and (non beefed

Both grievers and (non beefed up) deviltes will get their attacks interrupted if you hit them when they're getting ready to attack (the purple lines on the ground)

When a griever rushes at you, hit it once and you've interrupted its attack, and it wont attack for a few seconds. It can be hard to hit them with swords with narrow reach, like the calibur, since they tend to swoop behind you. just try to make each swing count, and remember to shield cancel after your first hit. Don't go crazy with them.

Devilites, on the other hand, tend to attack too quickly once they start telegraphing their attack. If you see them do that before you swing, you probably wont hit them in time. Devilites can be hazardous in groups since they attack so quickly. Keep a gun on you, it'll help against them, since they can't dodge and attack at the same time.

These enemies do require a different mindset to beat. Just take it slow and you'll do good. Maybe practice beating t2 versions of these monsters :D

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 16:57

#14

Cryoworld

Huh, never knew slimes dealt

Huh, never knew slimes dealt elemental. (Psst, they don't. They're piercing mobs, which you have defense for.)

Zombies are very easy to deal, barring the random jumping/FSC mass mobbing.

Also, your cobalt armor isn't even good end game gear, since the current T3 Boss, Lord Vanaduke, deals elemental damage. In addition, FSC has loads of fire everywhere, which tends to kill players far more than anything else there. There also happen to be lots and lots of zombies, trojans, and fire puppies all over FSC. There are a total of 4 wolvers in the entire FSC level, compared to the 100 zombies found all over it.

In other words, you're trying to create a set geared towards nothing. While it might look good, it still doesn't work very well in most situations and is often outdone in areas it works in.

Devilites don't need a nerf. You just need proper equipment/better skills.

For Devilites, never full combo them, you leave yourself open to attacks. It takes one strike to stop a normal devilite from attacking, two if its an overtimer. Try to minimize the amount that become overtimers, and if there are tons of them, aim for the bosses, killing them will turn a random devilite/overtimer into a harmless boss. I suggest doing this to try and control the number of overtimers that happen to be alive. Also, avoid killing any bosses that happen to be near a yes-man, those will immediately transform into overtimers.

Same with Greavers. Hit once, dodge, hit once, dodge. Shield if need be, but its better to dodge. If you know how to shield cancel your attacks, even better. Don't be afraid to run backwards while fighting them, they'll die soon enough. Also, one smack should be enough to stop a greaver from attacking. Shock Greavers are the nastiest enemies in-game, and should be treated with caution, try and not get surrounded by them, and push them away if they do.

Apart from that, just get some alternative gear. If it gets a bit much, then I suggest re-running JK. It might be better to maximize your profit in an area where you know you WILL profit, rather than choosing a high risk area and spending CE on revives only to come out with less than you came in. Alternatively, try the arena missions that are available to you.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 17:24

#15

Kitty-Softpaws

I'll admit, undercity

I'll admit, undercity stratums are HELL of hard. Fighting Devilite requires timing & precise accuracy. Personally I have all defense armor type gear. I have 3* jelly gear, & my mighty defender, skelly gear 3* & hoping to get a crest of almire from vanaduke someday, & my elemental cloak 3* with a heater shield in the future. I carry all terrain weapons & i'm a swordsman. The rocket hammer for ele-weak resistant monsters or carry effect doing swords like glacius 3* & combuster 3*, i carry the firo tech 4* & ice version of the firy tech; cryotech 3*, then my stunning flourish sword the rigadoon 4*. I'm aiming to getting effect trinkets. I almost soloed the RJ with zero death on RJ palace on a solo run but he does normal damage so i wiped easily with 3* gear lol.

I'm emphasizing defense over damage bonus. You can say i'm working as a medic in the PUGs.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 17:32

#16

Cryoworld

lol defense.

Even with 5* gear with defense suited to whatever area you're in, it's hardly any better than tissue paper. In T3, if you can't properly dodge, you're dead. Armor means so little in T3 that its almost non-existent in some instances. In fact, one reason swordies wear vog/skolver/snarby is more for the weapon boosts than the defense it provides. You will never, ever tank in T3. You will die if you try. Even wearing vog against constructs and gremlins in T3, it is amazing how quick your HP drops if you're careless.

In fact, in all of the late level boss levels it comes down to pure skill. Your armor hardly matters down in T3, it's one reason why you see videos of people running in proto gear.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 17:46

#17

Kitty-Softpaws

Well if you do something over

Well if you do something over a dozen times, you'll easily know they way those mobs in FSC work of course. It's not skills, it's repeating depths over & over.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 18:05

#18

Toxicyoccm

You know...

I bet there is a Pro-Fiend/Shock guild out there screwing with gates.
I should start a Gremlin/Fire for T3 guild...

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 18:16

#19

Soulstaker

Idk what you talking about, I

Idk what you talking about, I love to go against t3 fiends.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 19:40

#20

Pdtopgun

Okay...I freely admit that I

Okay...I freely admit that I suck at fiends. Badly. The usual way I play, which works on the majority of stuff in the Clockworks, doesn't really cut the mustard with them, and I suffer for it. Gear aside, it also doesn't help that I don't tend to run into them too often, so my chances to gain experience are somewhat limited. (Is it my imagination, or did they only start appearing in T1 somewhat recently? I can't remember ever fighting Devilites that much back then.) I will try to take the advice in here to heart, though it seems like every time I'm facing the things, it's always 3 or 4 at once, so I never seem to have the time/room to handle them properly. Maybe I'll pick things up eventually. The only reason I made this thread is that T3 had been coming up fiend after fiend after fiend, and I was kind of getting frustrated that I couldn't get a nice Slime/Beast combo (or hell, even Construct) that I'd actually be able to handle. Who knows, maybe there is something to that Vast Fiend Conspiracy idea. :P

The conversation about proper armor is kind of another thing entirely, but it sort of frustrates me in a different way. I see a lot of people talking about gearing up for the "endgame," by which they mean FSC, but it always makes me think...what if that's not my only goal in this game? Honestly, running the same sequence over and over again would bore me out of my skull. I'd much rather have options, whether it's a daily prestige mission, a random Arcade run, or whatever. I've never really been looking to tailor my equipment just to that single boss run, and I sort of feel like everyone going for that same goal makes things kind of dull, since everyone winds up going for the same one or two armor sets and looking identical to each other. (Seriously, like half the people in Haven at any given time are sporting Wolver gear.)

If the Cobalt line/Aegis really are essentially useless, why then are those the ones that OOO heavily promotes to new players, to the point where they even give out all the recipes for free now? (Even before that, they were the only recipes that were available 24/7, and Kozma popped up everywhere.) I feel like I've probably stuck with Cobalt in spite of the fact that it's not that great, simply because I want to stick out somewhat, plus out of the feeling that it should be the first set I take to 5*. I know it's goofy, and it's probably to my detriment, but I want to make it work anyway, and I figure there's plenty of time down the line to worry about all of the random elemental/shadow/fire resistant/sword-boosting stuff out there.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 20:00

#21

Cryoworld

Except for the tiny fact that

Except for the tiny fact that you could just make another line with all that CE it would take to make the azure guardian armor. Since, ya know, you'll likely never ever use it cept as a costume piece.

Just sayin'.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 20:34

#22

Traevelliath

Tank them?

Hopping back to when you responded directly to me...

Tank them? NEVER tank in SK. I deal with fiends without tanking their attacks. Devilites are just annoying for most swordsmen because if you run straight at them, you pretty much are tanking all their attacks. Greavers are even more annoying for swordsmen because of their cloud effect punishes people who want to do full combos and just keep mashing attack while point-blank.

I, as a Gunslinger/Swordsman hybrid, have almost no problems. The Magnus works, as I've said above, and mere zig-zags can get you within sword reach. If I was in your situation, I would wait with a Calibur charge. When a Greaver swoops in, I would merely do a Calibur twirl, causing them to attack the space several tiles away from me.

Just need a different strategy for a different enemy type. I like Fiends because of that.

Also, Greavers did get nerfed not too long ago...

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 20:49

#23

Batabii

a better question is "why are

a better question is "why are jerks still spamming the dark matter in the vanaduke gate?"

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 20:52

#24

Bopp

one of the few remaining challenges

Fiends are one of the most challenging parts of Spiral Knights, yes. They require me to play well, even with piercing weapons and shadow armor. But that's good. If I could beat everything in the game trivially, then I'd have to stop playing.

You're right that fiends are noticeably harder than wolvers and zombies. Some of us want wolvers restored back to their former AI, and zombies restored back to their former speed, because we get bored plowing through everything.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 21:04

#25

Pdtopgun

"Except for the tiny fact

"Except for the tiny fact that you could just make another line with all that CE it would take to make the azure guardian armor. Since, ya know, you'll likely never ever use it cept as a costume piece."

Except I will use it, if for nothing else than the RJP. Plus I don't leave my stuff gathering dust at 4* for all eternity. That's just not cricket.

And perhaps "tank" was a poor choice of words, though I would at least hope that a full shadow set would manage to make those hits at least somewhat survivable, as opposed to "Holy crap where did half of my health bar just go."

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 21:41

#26

Kitty-Softpaws

What I meant to say you

What I meant to say you is that already expect the enemy's move. But what will truly test skills is expecting the unexpecting & see how you do.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 21:52

#27

Traevelliath

armor...

The "Holy crap where did half my health bar just go" is a side-effect of wearing the wrong armor type. People notice it in Shadow Damage more because... well... people don't seem to wear much shadow armor. Wolver covers pierce, and Vog even covers elemental. Snarby, a Shadow Lair only armor set, is the Shadow variant, an expensive and long-term project that most players do not have. The other shadow armor lines are Angelic, which has weakness to fire (Except Fallen which is bad against fiends, and Heavenly Iron which is another Shadow Lair set), a big problem for late-game FSC (and it starts at 3* so most people don't have it as their first armor set), and Skelly which, up until recently, also had the same weakness to fire.

Wear Cobalt Armor against hordes of Constructs and you will notice the same pattern of massive chunks of health disappearing in a blink of an eye.

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 21:59

#28

Batabii

cobalt armor sucks anyway

Tue, 04/10/2012 - 22:52

#29

Undercorper

...

It's that we Fiends know how to get at your pocketbook, one way or another...
We're expert businessnulls, what do you expect?

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 13:58

#30

Twiddle

I've noticed this too

Pdtopgun Said:

What really makes me chuckle is that both zombies and wolvers, two groups of enemies with fairly-predictable attacks, received decent nerfs, yet these scourges of the Clockworks haven't been tweaked at all. Maybe they'll be up for some well-deserved takedowns in the future, but until then, I avoid their tiers like the plague, and I cry a bit to myself every time I'm forced to deal with them in T3.

Truer words have never been spoken. When I think about it, I don't see why wolvers and zombies (who's pre-nerf attacks were fair and totally predictable) got nerfed while devilites continue to use broken mechanics to decimate those with high latency. But, they did nerf greavers, and for that I'm very, very thankful.

As for your other point, I think that OOO put those fiends there out of tradition. In the past, that strata was usually a fiend strata. It's a elite ritual that started way back in the day. The idea was to jam as many dark matter and crimsonite in strata 5 of the vanduke gate as possible. Fiends are tough and not everyone can handle them. By making strata 5 a fiend strata, the devilites would "weed" out the "noobs" that don't "deserve" to run FSC because those "noobs" are not "good enough" and should not be running FSC.

I think the devs saw the undead strata in strata 5 and decided to throw those fiends in there just for old time sake. After all, FSC is an undead stata, and having two undead strata in a row may seem a bit redundant. Besides, fiends are usually there, and they share the same dark energy as the undead. So, why not throw them back in there?

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 02:27

#31

Griseolar

Whoa...

30 posts and Asukalan hasn't come in to throw his/her "STOP NERFING MOBS, I WANT MAI CHALLENGE DAMMIT!!!" point around yet? I r surprised...

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 02:49

#32

Lunaecho

My opinion on this...

You should at least consider getting a callahan to deal with them at a distance where you can dodge/block or a shivermist(preferably with a flourish to cut killing times down) to deal with groups of them at closer ranges because your shield wont do here.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 04:20

#33

Asukalan

Im watching you...

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 06:39

#34

Rodovisky

i agree

fiends are really a pain in the ass they nerfed zombies and now they are very easy but fiends.if you dont have a piercing weapon you have no chance of killing then greavers hit you 4 squares away devilites just dodge and throw stuff that are to fast to dodge c'mon OOO should nerf the fiends and buff zombies a little(but just a little)

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 07:36

#35

Merethif

I can feel your pain Pdtopgun

I can feel your pain Pdtopgun as I've worked out my own way of dealing with Devilites/Greavers just recently. Thanks to Test Server I was able to test Final Flourish, but it didn't worked. Then I tried Freezing Atomizer and Spike Shower seeing my guild mate rules with those bombs, but I failed as well. It was frustrating a bit because I was able to reach a core without revives equipped with Valiance only and some random armour, but still I was owned by T2 Devilites and Greavers.

First I've invested in gear. Dread Skelly Shield was my first 5* shield - I just leave my Owlite at 4* for awhile and focus on Skelly instead. Yea it was a pity to have 4* shield ready and then start building new one from scratch. But it was worth it. Also I've build myself Divine Veil as soon as possible. I'd suggest you to change your plans a bit and craft yourself Skelly Shield and Divine Veil first. That way you will be still able to finish your Mighty Cobalt Armour but combining it with Divine Veil can provide you with this extra defence/damage you need. Plus Mighty Cobalt Armour looks great with Divine Veil IMO.

Then I've tried different strategies. Even though I have Callahan with medium bonus damage vs Fiends (it was random UV during crafting) I've found out I perform better with Polaris vs Devilites and Valiance vs Greavers. Weird heh? None of this weapon is actually piercing but who cares. Now my anti-fiend loadout is made of Valiance, Polaris, Callahan (to finish leftovers quickly) and Shivermist (for occasional Trojan) - each with some nice damage bonus thanks to Divine Veil. I'm not trying to convince you it's the best combo out there - but it works for me. Just don't be afraid to change you strategy often and remember that what work for others doesn't necessary works in your case (but still is worth trying probably).

P.S.
And yes, further nerfs are not welcomed.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 08:37

#36

Batabii

@twiddle Yeah but since the

@twiddle

Yeah but since the advent of King of Ashes, that's really irrelevant.

Wed, 04/11/2012 - 09:02

#37

Pepperonius

pdtopgun

send me some mail in game, i remember what it was like to have to scrounge for every penny. I'll give you a hand.

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Fiends...why is it always fiends...