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BTB Damage and its implications in Damage Bonus and Combo damage

8 replies [Last post]
Fri, 04/13/2012 - 22:28
Agazide's picture
Agazide

BTB Tests

BTB is an unique weapon because it does pure piercing and so the damage data isn't muddled by Normal.

All tests done at D24, against the slimes, trojans, and zombies of FSC. No poison or shock was used, nor was the damage bonus from the 1k CE revive.
Format is:

damage of first and second hits/ damage from third hit [damage increase from first to third] (damage increase from +0 to damage +4) {damage difference from neutral }
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Damage bonus +0, BTB Level 1

33/38 [15%] {26/22%}

126/167 [32%] {100/100%}

194/242 [25%] {153/145%}

third hit does +48, +41, +5
___________________________________________________
Damage bonus +4 (very high), BTB Level 1

39/45 (18.1%/18.4%) [15%] {23/21%}

170/215 (35%/28.7%) [26%] {100/100%}

235/280 (21%/16%) [19%] {138/130%}

third hit does +45, +45, +6
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Conclusions:

herpaderp. You can see that the data is all over the place.
- The +4 to damage did anywhere from 18-35% more damage.
- "Neutral" or white number damage seems to be the most "efficient".

So I was going to do this experiemnt alone but I have no idea what this data indicates. The best I can come up with is that there's some formula that biases your damage bonuses to get less and less effective, from bonuses from trinkets to extra damage from combos.

So: input? any trends you can come up with? Can someone do this experiment with a level 10 btb?

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 05:49
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
still don't get it, but here's what I know

Your "format" proclaims that something's going to be in parentheses, but nothing is. And I have trouble understanding what "damage increase from +0 to damage" means. Maybe that's why I don't understand why neutral damage is the most "efficient".

I think that I understand the rest. The 53% and 45% bonus for using piercing against a weak monster is higher than I'm used to, but this might be because you're on Depth 24 instead of Depth 28.

User:Exasperation has done detailed modeling of damage data. I have also done some modeling of sword damage at depth 28. My models are not quite as precise as Exasperation's, but they are dramatically simpler. One of my models is this:

Let N, R, and V be the damages dealt by the weapon against neutral, resistant, and vulnerable monsters, respectively. Then, for swords on Depth 28,

R = 14 + 0.16 N (for pure piercing or pure elemental)
R = 16 + 0.58 N (for mixed normal+special)
V = 75 + 1.02 N (for all)

In other words: A resistant monster resists 84% of your special damage, except that there's a little damage (14 or 16 points) that you get as a baseline. A vulnerable monster incurs 75 extra points of damage. Note that this vulnerable bonus is not a percentage; it's an absolute number of points, and it applies to both pure special damage and mixed normal+special damage equally.

Mon, 04/16/2012 - 22:32
#2
Agazide's picture
Agazide
What I mean is that "super

What I mean is that "super effective" damage is less super effective than usual when you're wearing Snarby set or any armour that gives a damage bonus.
Furthermore, "not very effective" damage is even weaker when you're wearing damage bonus armour.
Finally, the third hit in a combo is less effective for doing more damage when wearing damage bonus gear.

This suggests that a certain number of Normal damage points is added to the base attack, as per your model?

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 05:12
#3
Bopp's picture
Bopp
maybe I get the point now?

Let me see whether I understand. Your goal is to determine how much extra damage each level of damage bonus gives you. (See the wiki page "Abilities" for links to other peoples' data, by the way.) You find that a damage bonus Very High (+4) increases damage anywhere from 18% to 35%. (I don't see where you got that 18% from, by the way.)

I don't understand why you seem to be blending three different issues:
* damage bonus from abilities (e.g. Snarbolax armor sword bonus)
* damage bonus from damage type on vulnerable monster (e.g. piercing on beast)
* differences in damage between one hit in a combo and another.

If you want to tease out the effect of damage bonuses abilities, then you should do a controlled experiment. Pick a depth (e.g. 19), a target (e.g. Ash Tail wolver), and a weapon (e.g. BTB). Then:
* Unequip all of your damage bonus. Perform all of the swings of the combo, recording the damage. Also perform the charge attack and record that damage. (Or just look up these numbers on the wiki.)
* Equip your damage bonus Very High stuff, and repeat the test.
* Compare the two sets of numbers.

Or did you do this, and I missed it?

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 13:40
#4
Bopp's picture
Bopp
okay, maybe NOW I get it :)

Okay, maybe you did give me exactly what I want. Tell me if this is formatted correctly. All tests are Depth 24 with BTB. The three numbers are for the three hits in a combo.

Slime, +0 damage bonus: 33, 33, 38
Undead, +0 damage bonus: 126, 126, 167
Fiend, +0 damage bonus: 194, 194, 242
Slime, +4 damage bonus: 39, 39, 45
Undead, +4 damage bonus: 170, 170, 215
Fiend, +4 damage bonus: 235, 235, 280

Dividing the numbers in the second half by the numbers in the first half, we can measure the effect of the +4 damage bonus as a percentage:

Slime: 18%, 18%, 18%
Undead: 35%, 35%, 29%
Fiend: 21%, 21%, 16%

Alternatively, we could subtract the former numbers from the latter, if we thought that the bonus might simply be a fixed number of points. But that also gives results all over the place.

I agree that what we're seeing here is some kind of diminishing returns, put in place by the game designers, to avoid having weapons deal astronomical damage. Exasperation's tests suggest that a similar phenomenon is at work in the bonuses for using a damage type against vulnerable monsters (e.g. piercing against fiends). A pure piercing or elemental sword has about the same vulnerable bonus (75 points) as a mixed normal+elemental or normal+shadow sword does.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 21:58
#5
Agazide's picture
Agazide
This is actually the first

This is actually the first set of data I'm getting.

My *real* experiment is to find the amount of damage bonus gained between level 0 and level 10, and what type of damage it is.

if it appears that my snarble barb gains a damage boost similar to that shown by the data here when it's at level 10, then it suggests that all items gain bonuses corresponding to "low", "medium", ect. as they level up.

So if anyone wants to get raw data for BTB at +0 and +4 damage with a level 10 that would be great.

Bopp's theory of diminishing returns makes sense, however, I wonder why would the damage bonus be _even less effective_ against resistant monsters?

Wed, 04/18/2012 - 05:37
#6
Bopp's picture
Bopp
oh, I still missed the point :)

Oh, we're trying to tease out the effect of heat level 1 vs. heat level 10. If I get a chance, I'll run your same tests later or tomorrow with a BTB at heat level 10.

Thu, 04/19/2012 - 14:50
#7
Bopp's picture
Bopp
some data at heat level 10

A friend of mine just ran some tests. Unfortunately, he was using a sword with an undead Medium UV, so the undead numbers are not exactly what we want. All data are from FSC depth 24, via the King of Ashes mission, with a BTB at heat level 10.

Slime, no damage bonus: 42, 42, 49
Undead, bonus Medium: 219, 219, 271
Fiend, no bonus: 258, 258, 307

Slime, bonus Very High: 50, 50, 59?
Undead, bonus Maximum!: 271, 271, 331
Fiend, bonus Very High: 310, 310, 366

By dividing each of these numbers by the numbers you got at heat level 1, we can tease out the percentage increase in damage from heat level 1 to heat level 10. (But we can't do it for undead, because the damage bonuses don't match up.)

Slime, no bonus: 27%, 27%, 29%
Fiend, no bonus: 33%, 33%, 27%
Slime, bonus+4: 28%, 28%, 31%?
Fiend, bonus+4: 32%, 32%, 31%

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 22:17
#8
Agazide's picture
Agazide
Great~

So if I'm interpreting this right, it seems that

-Damage increase due to leveling up is *generally* unaffected by damage bonuses from armour.
-Damage increase due to leveling up is equivalent to a "very high" or something above "Maximum" damage bonus from level 0 to 10.

Hypothesis: Damage increase due to leveling up follows the trend of diminishing returns, being more effective against neutral enemies than super effective or resistant.

Now, I just got my BTB to level 10 and I'll test it out on some zombies. If my hypothesis is right, the damage bonus vs. undead should be something like 60%.

-Ag

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