Spiral Knights - Sudaruska vs Leviathan Blade

Sudaruska vs Leviathan Blade

9 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 07:29

Flaame

http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Sudaruska
Which one is better in your opinion? I'm only considering getting the Sudaruska now as a normal damage dealing weapon.

My thoughts and positions on things:
I'm fond of the Sealed Sword lines and their 2-hit swing.
The Sudaruska might be better used both as a PvE and PvP weapon.
The Leviathan Blade that I own has a Gremlin Damage Bonus: Low UV. Horrible UV in my opinion.
Considering vendoring my Leviathan Blade like I did with my Fang of Vog and Sentenza just now.
The Charge on the Leviathan Blade is considerably better, but I don't charge my weapons all that often, except if it's with the Divine Avenger, Argent Peacemaker, Voltech Alchemer or Barbarous Thorn Blade from time to time.

I should also mention I have tried comparing Attack Speed between the Troika lines and the Sealed Sword lines. I honestly cannot see a difference between the two in attack speed despite people telling me there is. Both tried with Max ASI and no ASI.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 08:08

Tenkii

on attack speed:

Try doing the full 2-hit combo and trying to shield afterwards with both heavy sword lines. The troika line should be noticeably more vulnerable afterwards. This also applies to the first hit, but since there's more ending lag on the second swing of a heavy sword, it's much more noticeable seeing it there. Even that aside, try holding shield through the charge attack - You can move much earlier after the sealed sword's charge.

If you like the heavy sword playstyle (rather, since you mentioned sealed sword lines, I'll assume you have a DA and/or GF) or more specifically, the sudaruska's charge, I will admit that it's a LOT of fun in PVE.

As for PVP, I'm still a little meh about sudaruska- I DA's elemental and GF's shadow damage to be much more useful workarounds to getting though peoples' armor (ex: I'll use GF versus Vog and DA vs most everything else). Sudaruska's charge is a fun way to harass a shielding guardian though - if you've dealt a bit of damage to the shield already, the 2-hit charge can be pretty useful surprise damage. And of course, Sudaruska's lower attack speed still throws me off since it's more vulnerable than the other heavy swords :(

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 09:01

Bopp

unusual comparison

Sudaruska vs. Levi is an unusual comparison to make; you get points for being original. :)

According to the Lancer Knightz sword combo data, Sudaruska does 28 combos per minute, while DA/GF does 32 (at ASI Medium). So, at least according to this particular measure of speed, DA/GF is at least 10% faster.

I've never tried Sudaruska/Triglav. It seems like a fun weapon, and that's worth something. But the damage is pretty poor, according to almost any measure of damage. Stun is still a buggy status (see various threads), although I'm not sure how that affects Sudaruska users.

Leviathan has higher significantly higher DPS in normal attacks, it's easier to defend (because the swings don't take so long), and the charge attack is really nice. A Levi with big CTR is beautiful, and I'm not a guy to praise normal swords often. So, with the caveat that I've never used Sudaruska/Triglav, there seems to be no contest.

I'm not sure why you're fixated on normal swords in the first place, but if you're experienced enough to earn FoV then maybe you have your reasons.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 12:15

Toastnaut

As a Suda User...

First, and importantly, what you've heard about the Troika line being slower than the Sealed Sword line is very, very true. It's a significant difference.
More than the actual speed of the attacks (which is faster in the sealed line,) the biggest difference you will find is recovery time AFTER attacks, and how long it takes to shield while using the sword.

It's enough of a difference that even having used the Troika line long before even getting a Sealed Sword (and I have all four troika/sealed 5* versions) I am still careful when I do and do not finish my combo with the Troika, whereas I'm pretty confident in my timing with the Gran Faust and DA.

Bottom line: The Troika line swords are FUN. That's all CAPS: F.U.N.
The damage isn't great, but they're not high damage swords. They work very well with carefully timed attacks, picking when to strike for maximum effect, hitting groups of enemies for lots of damage at once, and controlling enemy positions.
Basically, you want to use them to play defensively.

On the other hand, the Calibur/Levi uses more of a broad, simple approach: Apply sharp bits to enemy and/or charge and run into groups.

You already have a levi, so you know how it works, and how effective it is. The Suda is certainly effective as well, but you have to know how to use it and how to play a bit more defensively to make it pay off.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 15:46

Dark-Flare

Triglav user!

As Toastnut said, the recovery time is what makes the troikas much, much slower than the sealed swords.

In LD, they are most effective when being a recon and you death mark your enemy (which basically removes their defenses): Only then will a troika do more damage than any other weapons. My experience after trying the Triglav in LD was that if you miss, you're screwed, and that while using the charge attack, you might die before it's completed. However, I did manage to smash someone with the charge once, and it was the most satisfying moment ever
XD

In PvE; Of course weapons that do critical on monsters will do more. But when the damage being done is neutral, troikas will do more. Compared to the Levi, Suda will be riskier to use (due to the slow recovery time), but since you are familiar with 2 hit swords, it should be fine. The knockback on every swing (Suda) will help in surviveability, in place of the Levi's charge attack. Also, make sure the Suda charge is only used on concentrated groups or one big enemy, otherwise you are at risk of getting flanked.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 15:58

Bopp

Suda/Trig vs. DA/GF against a neutral enemy

"In PvE; Of course weapons that do critical on monsters will do more. But when the damage being done is neutral, troikas will do more."

Sudaruska/Triglav users often say this, but it is false, unless you slap on some serious qualifications. Here are the numbers from the wiki (for first swing, second swing, charge swing):
* Suda/Trig: 258, 321, 468
* DA/GF vs. a neutral enemy: 234, 363, 600
So Suda/Trig does more damage on the first swing, but much less on the second, so less for the combo, and definitely less for the charge. The best you can say for Suda/Trig is that it outdamages DA/GF on the first swing.

And this is not even taking into account the speed advantage of DA/GF. I mean, if you want to talk about damage per second, then DA/GF really starts to pull away from Suda/Trig. And let's not even talk about the DA/GF numbers vs. a vulnerable enemy.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 16:53

Toastnaut

Yep Bopp is the corrects

I don't know why people say that the Suda is better than other swords for damage against neutral enemies. It doesn't even compare to the Brandish lines against neutral enemies, and they're not heavy swords. In three hits they do a great deal more damage than the Suda does in two.

The key to remember is that using a Troika you are NOT going for damage. You are going for Battlefield Control. That means knocking stuff about so that rather than whereever it happens to be, it is where you want it.

The only time that the Suda will outdamage other swords is when you can knock and maneuver them into a tight group and unleash a charge on all of them. Even some bombs can't compete with that for damage done to a bunch of stuff in one go.

It's a teamwork sword. If you can work with your teammates, it will suit you well. If you are a lone wolf who competes for the kill, it will frustrate you (and them.)

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 17:05

Tenkii

on numbers

Thank you for bringing that up - the Troika line playstyle is almost completely swing1 and charge attack, the GF is almost completely 2-swings, and DA is the most versatile with its useful charge and decent swing speed.

In FSC, I find Sudaruska usually takes 1 extra hit to kill things in comparison to the effective DA.
----

Just for the sake of clarity, can you like, pull the charge damage for:

- both hits of the troika charge
- starting hit AND followup hit damage for DA/GF. (for the 'total', I'd say 1 startup hit and assume the followup hits 3 times).

Also, DA/GF have VERY different hit damage for their charge attacks. I think GF is supposed to do more damage with its charge but at the expense of width.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 19:15

Bopp

clarification

Seiran, in the figures for the DA/GF charges, I was ignoring the projectiles entirely. I was counting only the "charge swing", which I think you're calling the "startup hit". The DA/GF charge does more damage, depending on how many times those projectiles hit.

I haven't carefully watched Suda/Trig since the charge was strengthened recently, so maybe the charge is more powerful now, and I should re-evaluate? Anyway, I'm just quoting damage numbers from the swords' wiki pages. So if you want to compute some different version, go right ahead. I'd be curious to see which measures of damage Suda/Trig users regard as typical of how the swords are used.

And, just to clarify to everyone: I'm not arguing that Suda/Trig is worthless, or that it's not fun, or that it can't manage enemies, or that it doesn't work well in a team. My arguments were to refute the specific claim that it does more damage than DA/GF.

Tue, 04/17/2012 - 19:31

Dark-Flare

Yeah i forgot to mention only

Yeah i forgot to mention only the 1st swing is stronger, thanks for pointing it out. But as Seiran said, with a troika you generally use only the 1st swing. The Triglav charge can now do about 1k damage in t3 (that is, with the full 2hit combo) but compared to other charges is still relatively weak.

Btw, does the troika lines have greater knockback than that of the sealed sword? (swings, not charge)

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Sudaruska vs Leviathan Blade