Spiral Knights - A Sharp Observation -- Calibur vs. Cutter?

A Sharp Observation -- Calibur vs. Cutter?

19 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/24/2011 - 22:02

Fenix-Stryk

I've been using Calibur/Blaster ever since I started this game (Proto behaved identically); today I switched to Cutter/Antigua and took both to 10. The Antigua is fine, just as expected, but the Cutter left something to be desired. I picked it up because I will be needing a Vile Striker for Jelly farming and I wanted to familiarize myself with it, but... well, let me start from the beginning.

I am very familiar with the Calibur/Blaster combo. Extended exposure to its behavior has shaped my combat approach considerably:
1) Never use your last shot. You always want to skip your Blaster's reload time and you always want to be able to block in melee range.
2) Aim only for safe damage. Melee when an enemy is separated, predictable or easier to kill with a sword; otherwise, kite from range.

In other words, I switch from Sword to Gun constantly because the pay-off is there for me to go in and out. If I'm walking towards someone, I'm shooting, and once I'm in range, I melee for bigger damage until I need to back off again and kite. The sword does big damage, the gun does safe damage, the dynamic is there, it's simple, it's effective, I like it.
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Fast-forward to the Cutter and... well, suddenly that dynamic is gone. The Cutter is fast and fits very easily into my "Never use your last shot" rule, but the damage isn't there. It feels like I'd only want it for the knockback; it also has mobility, but why would I want that in a Sword when Guns do it better?

My Blaster hits for 40 per shot. It comes out to about 100 damage per second.
My Calibur hits for 80 per slash. It does 160 damage per combo and requires almost no face-to-face time.
My Cutter? It barely matches Cal's 160 in four slashes, and it takes longer to do it.

I won't say the Cutter is useless; I feel very light on my feet while I'm using it. It carves through packs effortlessly and blocking is never an issue because the delay after each slash is essentially nonexistent.

However, I feel that there is a constant requirement for Cutter to stay in melee range to be effective, that was never there on Calibur. If I can only get two slashes in on Calibur, it's perfectly fine; I did 160 damage, so it was worth going in. Not so for the Cutter!; two slashes is only ~80 damage. When would it ever be worth going in for unsafe damage from Cutter when I can do nearly equal DPS with the always-safe Blaster?
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I still plan on getting a Vile Striker because I know it will be useful in the long run for King Jelly, but I would like to know what the overall draw for the Cutter series is. Does anyone prefer Cutter over other Sword options? If so, could you state why?

It feels like damage per second, but the bonus DPS it has over guns doesn't feel like it outweighs just... using a gun...

Sun, 04/24/2011 - 22:17

Arydrall

Legacy Username

I'm using a striker, the

I'm using a striker, the three star version of the cutter. Well, most of the time. I switch equipment a lot for the hell of it.

The striker requires a different style to get the most out of it. Since the attack is almost faster than dedicated moving, you can change directions very quickly when attacking. What the striker is superb at is damaging large numbers of enemies. You charge a mass of them, then switch direction to separate the group off into a corner to abuse them in awful ways.

But the problem you run into is it becomes very easy to bash your way into a group, and then they all smack you as you get close.

The more I use it, the more I feel like it's a weapon that could be GREATLY effective if you take the time to LEARN it and not just berserk your way into an early grave.

Sun, 04/24/2011 - 22:18

Mme_Brea

Legacy Username

The Cutter is excellent for

The Cutter is excellent for people like me who play games with the fastest character or quickest attacks. You're not going for more damage per hit, you're using it because it lets you react much more on the fly. When you get more acquainted with it/the game, in fact, you can start using the inertia from each swing as an extra dodge, or to position yourself instead of being as stuck in place as the other swords seem to leave you.

I can solo some nastier floors because of the fact that I've been using the Cutters for so long, now I know where to move and can just swing, swing, dodge, swing, etc. and things like arenas are simpler with just a hit and run focus. The knockback on the hits is another bonus, especially in groups: knock your enemies into a friend's bomb, or kick an attacking enemy away with a quick swing so they miss you entirely.

Or, to put it the simplest way: this is how I'm used to playing and you better believe I'd gripe if I had to switch to your default of a Calibur again. Ugh, too slow for me now.

Sun, 04/24/2011 - 22:20

Negimasonic

Title has a pun in it? XD On

Title has a pun in it? XD

On a serious note, I haven't used a cutter since the preview and I barely used it then (didn't have enough time to mess with it). But when I did, felt like it was blazingly fast but I basically lost all chances at defending...and the charge combo was more than likely going to get me hit...

I won't say I'd never use a cutter again but for now, Calibur will do just fine.

Sun, 04/24/2011 - 22:39

Hazel

I cannot really stand the

I cannot really stand the Cutter line's lack of ability to interrupt. The deeper you go in the clockworks, the more imperitive stopping damage becomes. Sparing having to block as often as possible is a huge priority, and with the cutter series, you have to block everything - you'll pretty much never interrupt a single thing.

Some will argue in favor of it making you wiggle around a lot being comparable to a free high-speed dodge, but honestly, that doesn't seem to fly too well most of the time. Dodging is less effective than blocking and interrupting in the vast majority of situations, and the cutter series makes every form of defense more difficult to pull off, unless you cancel into a block after the 2nd or 4th swings, which seem to cancel faster than the calibur line.

For my money, Interrupts > Dodges, so Calibur/Sealed Sword > Cutter. Your mileage may vary. It is, after all, a playstyle decision.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 00:11

StevenMagnet

Legacy Username

To be honest with you I feel

To be honest with you I feel as if the Calibur line is much better than the Cutter line. In terms of basically everything. The attack speed is nearly identical with a Vog Cub set. The Calibur only has 3 attacks and the Cutter has way more than you'll almost always be able to get off. The damage on the Calibur line is much better too, and it doesn't make you "dance around" the map the entire time. It has a better charge attack by FAR as well.

I have experience with my Wild Hunting Blade, Dread Venom Striker, Levi Blade, and Cold Iron Vanquisher.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 00:29

Pupu

Legacy Username

Cutter line used to be pretty on par or better than Calibur lines.
Lots of people used them and they got nerfed during beta.
Probably because more swing = more chances of stopping and shielding.

I only use Cali, so I don't have much else to say.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 00:33

Feynt

Legacy Username

When you learn to use the

When you learn to use the cutter effectively you can literally dance around enemies. Those lumbering golems and axe swinging gremlins have predictable attacks, and doing blender action you can effectively skirt them and keep attacking while avoiding their swing. The insane attack speed also means you can block cancel at a moment's notice, so you can be instantly ready to defend if things are about to go wrong. Upgrading to the vile striker gives you poison, which in turn improves your damage output by lowering the target's defense. A friend of mine does a few vile striker hits, block cancels, and then switches to a voltech driver and fires off a few rounds. The instant his target gets electrocuted, he zips in to hack away (shocked targets have lowered defense too for some reason).

Agreeably it takes a very different playstyle to use this sword effectively. Do not rely on auto-aim, it ruins the effectiveness of the sword.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 00:57

tysta

Legacy Username

anti-calibur.

I use cutter-series weapons. I always have, and always will. I simply can't stand having to watch my character do a long swing animation and having to wait for it to finish so I can finally block incoming damage. It trains you into using your shield properly which you will need in later tiers. It takes more of an aggressive approach to battles, that is true. But I prefer a bit of zerg-rushing over running and circles and charging up an attack.

Also the damage of the 4* variants isn't bad at all. Visually, it shows low numbers, but if you don't turn on 'damage numbers' you won't ever feel the need to complain because the enemies die so easily.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 01:29

Feynt

Legacy Username

Actually as long as you don't

Actually as long as you don't do your final swing in a combo for any sword, you can block immediately (called block canceling). This can allow even a troika to swing at near proto sword speeds. I've also found the charge attack for most weapons is useless, and I can't think of a better example than the cutter. The calibur is among the better charge attacks, along with the sealed sword variants.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 01:38

#10

Linkderp

Legacy Username

Only use my Vile Striker

Only use my Vile Striker against RJ (Royal Jelly, King Jelly, what have not) while I use Gran Faust, Divine Avenger and Argent Peacemaker on all other targets.

Divine Avenger/Gran Faust is 1000x better than all other weapons imo, u can gather entire rooms and aoe them with single strike, block, single strike block and they'll never hit u, in t3. Don't have auto aim on and circle them.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 03:08

#11

Sick

Legacy Username

@Linkderp

You use that setup to deal with t3 wolver pacts too?

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:27

#12

Fenix-Stryk

Sharp as a thumbtack, eh? Or perhaps a marble?

Thanks for all the input thus far. I have since spent more time with the two weapons side-by-side, enough to get used to Cutter and appreciate its differences. Today's gate, Iron Giant (good movie BTW) helped quite a bit since T2 has four Danger Rooms back-to-back.

Calibur + Blaster/Antigua creates a very specific play style: circle-strafe an entire pack until it dies. The Calibur doesn't move you very far, and it only has enough knockback to push enemies back into the group. When I'm at range, I'm circle-strafing, no harm-no foul, and when I'm in melee range I'm taking pot-shots while still circle-strafing: slash twice, block cancel, strafe a little, slash twice again, repeat, repeat, etc. etc., both weapons keep the pack grouped together and it works.

Cutter wants nothing to do with that, because using the Cutter means you have to go in or go around swinging. It is reminiscent of a bomber or a fighter jet taking passes at a ground target: you take mostly linear sweeps past over and over, never really stopped by anything. For its credit, the Cutter is a lot harder to get cornered with, but it breaks the above play style. Using the Cutter effectively means you can't stop swinging to reposition; you have to do both at the same time.

It's something that could be effective if mastered, but I don't think it's for me just yet.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:42

#13

Deslare

Legacy Username

I use my Vile Striker for

I use my Vile Striker for tearing into things when they're open, then backing away. When there's large groups I opt for my Fiery Atomizer to whittle them down. Using all 5 hits on the Striker is hard to do without getting hit unless someone is distracting it, but that's the style of it - if you take things head on then you should get a few quick stabs in and back away, it's highly mobile.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 14:51

#14

Feynt

Legacy Username

Another weapon to try with

Another weapon to try with great forward momentum is the Spur line. All three attacks move you forward a good deal. The Winmillion also shoots out a short range projectile which will trigger dodge mechanics on enemies outside of melee range. If you're close to your target, or can close to melee with the first swing and hit it, you'll be able to stay up close and personal without them dodging/teleporting away. I've tested this extensively, and even on tier 3 the teleporting wolvers don't teleport any more than a regular melee weapon when you can hit them with melee attacks. At range, they exhibit the teleporting behavior (even if the shots won't hit them), so it's a good weapon for keeping control of the battle field with dodging opponents.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 15:02

#15

Icee

Speed vs. Strength

This discussion basically comes down to speed versus strength. I, personally, like speed. Slow weapons annoy the heck out of me, so my first 2* sword was a cutter. I liked it. I liked the spur better, though. The Spur is also quite fast, but it has a good knockback in both the first and third hit that can interrupt an enemy's attack. Because there isn't a 5* in the spur line, I am continuing to level up my cutter (and looking for a vile striker recipe), but my primary sword at the moment is an arc razor.

Other people have a greater patience for weapons with a longer strike time, so for them it might be good to have a stronger, slower weapon. The Calibur is really middle of the road in terms of speed, so it's a nice compromise if you're not sure whether you prefer speed or strength.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 15:06

#16

Feynt

Legacy Username

The lack of a 5 star recipe

The lack of a 5 star recipe for the Spur line actually doesn't matter. Tier 3 is unlocked by 4 star weapons, and it's plenty capable in tier 3 as a primary weapon. I reached the core with it in a two man team.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 15:30

#17

zeomann20

Legacy Username

I actually use both Calibur

I actually use both Calibur and a Vile Striker and rely on allies with bombs and guns for range, so I suppose the difference doesn't matter much to me. I focused on upgrading my Striker because I love to move fast and the Calibur just didn't do that for me. I still use it because the charged spin attack can be vital for clearing crowds when you need to, and I fully intend to upgrade it eventually, but I rarely use single attacks with Calibur.

Quite frankly, the damage difference doesn't matter when you use Cutter line weapons properly. Lately I've begun opening up with Calibur's spin to send enemies flying into corners. When you corner an enemy with a Cutter line weapon, you can absolutely tear into them, knock them down, do whatever you want. That's why I like it better. It feels much more satisfying to hear the bevy of slashing sounds as you hit cornered enemies over and over. I admit that the charged Cutter attack is highly situational, though. As of now I only use it on large golems after baiting them into attacking.

There really isn't a better weapon among the two. It just depends on how you like to play and what role you want to fill in groups. Someone with a Cutter weapon would be much better at separating healers from the enemies and taking them out, while someone with a Calibur would be much better at dealing straight damage without having to maneuver the enemy into a corner.

Finally, I must also admit to getting a little too aggressive with my Vile Striker and ending up taking hefty damage. But hey, live and learn.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 16:38

#18

kyoushu1

Legacy Username

The only viable cutter is

The only viable cutter is vile striker since you can apply poison which makes it safer to stay in melee range (halves attack/defense).
Otherwise, cutters lack damage/knockback, and are generally inferior to the calibur/sealed sword lines.

Mon, 04/25/2011 - 16:51

#19

Hyperweevil

Legacy Username

I've been using the Cutter

I've been using the Cutter series ever since It's been in my possession. Now, I've got a Wild Hunting Blade, and It's by far my favorite weapon in the game. It doesn't give good opportunities for interrupting the opponent until the final swing, which in turn is dangerous because you can't activate your shield for a full second after the final swing is finished. But that, to me, is about the only downside, along with its not-so-useful charge attack. I'm a fan of its knockback capabilities and its quick movement forward with each swing. Not to mention its phantom blade, or a phantom wolf in my case, adds extra damage to your swing. You don't have to have the first actual attack land for the phantom attack to land. This is great for Lumbers. I can get through 7-9 attacks before I have to either block or move. That easily racks up around 1k+/- Damage in T3 against these lumbering beasts before they have a chance to strike back.

I also never leave the Arcade without my Hail Driver at my side. This allows you to separate groups of enemies with its splitting, rebounding freezing shots, allowing you to decimate them with your Cutter. I love this combo, and I tend to have the Antigua with me as well for my damaging safe-distance weapon. And thanks to the Hail Driver's Freezing capabilities, it allows me to actually have a use for its charge attack.

The Pros:
Excellent Speed
Quick forward attack movements
Above-average knockback.

The Cons:
Block Delay in the final swing.
Not so useful charge attack.
Not so accurate against dodging targets.

This weapon is fantastic once you learn how to use it. It becomes that much more effective if you should pair it with an impairing weapon such as the Cryotech series or the Voltech Series, allowing you to eliminate a few of its weaknesses.

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A Sharp Observation -- Calibur vs. Cutter?