Spiral Knights - Watering Vanaduke in order to use Shivermist is pointless.

Watering Vanaduke in order to use Shivermist is pointless.

33 replies [Last post]

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 15:55

Sodaaddict

The range of the Shivermist is large enough to reach beyond his fire.

I've been running FSC with guildies for a while now, and never once have I nor any of my teammates had to water Vanaduke in order to freeze him.

Lately, however, I've run into an increasing number of knights who don't seem to realize this. Just today an FSC party I was in went down the gutter in part because the designated bomber was too busy watering Vana to actually bomb. (I don't have experience killing Vanaduke without shiver, that's a topic for another discussion.)

Point is: Don't waste time watering Vanaduke. Seriously.

EDIT: Okay, so not totally pointless. I stand corrected. It's just not totally necessary either.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 15:58

Neodasus

Actually, having your slagger

Actually, having your slagger water vanaduke after watering the floor is the right thing to do. Afterwards you can have your slagger aim a well-timed flourish charge into Vana, dealing 1.4 if not 1.6k damage

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:46

The-Ark

It makes it easier to do so,

It makes it easier to do so, therefore people do it. Though the possibility exists that they read the Drakfire Vanaduke wiki page instead of the regular one by mistake, because he has to be watered down for the shivermist to reach him.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:51

Sodaaddict

I stand corrected then. Not

I stand corrected then. Not pointless. But ABSOLUTELY 100% necessary? To the point where it can't be done without it? No.

Also, Neodasus' idea only works if there's a FF in the party, which isn't all the time.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 16:59

Halifix

If your bomber is removing

If your bomber is removing fire for you, your other members are not doing their jobs.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:29

Juances

I never ever saw someone doing it.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:34

Pawn

Actually,

As i bomber first and foremost. The OPTIMAL (in my opinion) way to shiver vs is vana is with a ctr max shiver and the following. OPTIMAL. U shiver, 3 people blitz. With ctr max u have just enough time to do this. Shiver-->water--shiver-->water repeat. U freeze him. Hit him with water (breaks freeze). He refreezes cause ur shiver is still in place, and u drop another shiver. You absolutely have time to both shiver and water him. This means the 3 people blitzing cause a LOT of extra damage because of the extra fireballs being gone. It is absolutely great :D I haven't crunched the numbers to see if it is beneficial for others to water as well, but i'd actually guess it is. On the other hand, i do agree that people don't' need to water just so u can shiver, that'd be silly. You water for more DPS.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:38

Sylveon

Eh?

What kinda bomber are you running with that neglects to keep Vana shiv'd? What kind other guys are running with ya if they're not watering? Sheesh.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:45

Gnomesrock

Try doing a swords only Vana.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 18:49

Sinkillerj

It actually annoys me when

It actually annoys me when I'm shivering if someone keeps putting out the balls, it makes it harder to get back into position.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:15

#10

Thimol

-----

It's a shame that no one likes to be the dedicated Shiverer. Either that, or no one likes having one. On a large part of my Vana runs, I'm the only one with the dagnab thing. I'm terrible with it.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:21

#11

Dancinjen

I have shivered vana

I have shivered vana countless times and i HATE it when someone throws water at him and tries to take out the fireballs. Maybe I'm weird, and maybe that's why everyone in my guild (sodaaddict is a guildmate in In the Jelly) don't really bother with watering vana down. It's not needed if someone has a gun in the run, and the majority of time there is a gun on the run.

So, soda is right. Watering him down is kinda unnecessary. It's not exactly pointless if someone wants to go swordie on vana but that rarely happens with us... at least the parties I've been in.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:50

#12

Reiyu

all good bombers know this.

The range of the Shivermist is large enough to reach beyond his fire.

got no gun? kill slags/guards. stop watering vana.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 19:53

#13

Batabii

Watering him is the only

Watering him is the only surefire way to hit him with anything that isn't a bomb. Even blitz needle gets half its shots blocked by phase 5.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 20:06

#14

Griseolar

"Watering him is the only

"Watering him is the only surefire way to hit him with anything that isn't a bomb. Even blitz needle gets half its shots blocked by phase 5."

This. Strangely though, in most of my runs, I find I'm the only one watering Vana AND Shivermisting him at the same time, yet the team still does rather well.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 20:32

#15

Sodaaddict

Well I've learned a bit today

Okay, so watering Vana has a few very good uses, notably making Blitz/whatever weapon more efficient. The main point I'm attempting to make here (or perhaps, the question I'm trying to ask) is that Vana does not HAVE to be watered, and most certainly not at the expense of being frozen. I ended up using Glacius charges on Vana so my guildie could blitz without getting smacked during his reload.

My teammate with the shiver insisted that Vana HAD to be watered, or else he couldn't get close enough to lay down a shiver. (Perhaps I misunderstood him, as it was between bouts of referring to me as Captain Dumbass, though I admit I wasn't being kind myself. At least I was being more original. I mean "Captain Dumbass?" SO 1990's.) I guess I'm trying to counter that mistaken perception.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:07

#16

Evilnut

@Sodaaddict

Try to teach your shivering teammate to throw the water NOT at Vana, but at an angle so it hits the fireballs but not Vana himself.

When I shiver, I do it outside the fireballs' range, but since I have max CTR on bombs, I find that I have the time to throw water while keeping Vana frozen. So I alternate between shivering and throwing water, so I can put out shadow fire in the lower half of the room, and my teammates can do more damage.

Thu, 04/26/2012 - 21:10

#17

Sodaaddict

Evilnut

I learned the lesson of watering to the SIDE of Vana the hard way xD.
Nothing like a mace to the face from an unfrozen Vana to instill proper procedure.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 00:01

#18

Niichi

Hmm. I see that some people

Hmm. I see that some people choose to shiv and water at the same time. If you've got really good CTR and good timing then I suppose that can work, although I think it is really safer to let another team mate do it. Moreso for people working with less CTR.

I know in my own personal case if I end up shiving and watering at the same time then something has gone horribly wrong in the fight. Although in those cases I'm more watering to get rid of a stupidly high amount of fire that has been allowed to build up around Vana. It's not always ideal just to stand in the same spot if slag guards end up charging in your general direction. ._.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 05:26

#19

Kickthebucket

never seen anybody do this

never seen anybody do this (90% of the time i'm shivering though haha)

but what i DO hate (and when it happens feel to slap that person silly) i shivlock 1 of the slag guards allmost every time (sometimes i manage to lock them both if the slagger manages to send him into the freeze radius) but i had the bad luck to have some buttwipes to go and unfreeze them (and hitting them in the front even) and sending him charging right into me...

and most of the time the following happens

i'm not in time to drop the bomb (or i do but it's not able to freeze vana) he starts spawning shadow fire, the whole team is going nuts and don't know what to do anymore and then the person who started this all wants US to revive him...

like stated above, if the bomber is watering somebody in the team isn't doing his job haha

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 06:57

#20

Pepperonius

@Batabii, anyone else who thinks water is even remotely

necessary with blitzers.

Here's the deal. As a guild, The Nights Watch (and ITJ, having run with several of them) we can kill Vana in 2.5 minutes using shiver and 2 blitz, with the 4th handling slags. Enough bullets from the blitz get through to do CONSISTENTLY 2k damage per blitz charge. this means 2/3 of the bullets are getting through. There is no need to water Vana, UNLESS you are doing a no shiver run. In that case, soak the bugger. Shiver runs, focus on damage, let the shiver do his/her job.

SOURCE: over 500 almirian seals accumulated personally, and another guildmate has 400+ IN HIS INVENTORY. My guild has 20+ members who can easily run vana effectively.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 07:30

#21

Mbcscp

hate shivering when ppl leave all the zombies and slags alone only blitz vana ...
seriously take care of them 1st whilst im shivering as vana aint going anywhere :)

never had anyone throw water but id assume its annoying to be honest since its a waste of time ...

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 07:57

#22

Bluescreenofdeath

yup

There is no reason for the person on Shiv-lock duty to water the fire balls.

There is no reason for anyone else to water the fireballs either unless the slags are all dead & they do not have a Blitz/Plague (even then still not needed unless they are going to try to get in sword range).

Unless it is a sword (non-Blitz run).

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 08:31

#23

Evilnut

If you say shiver-locker shouldn't water...

Think about other scenarios - like a 2-men Vana run!

The the work was split up like this between me and my friend:

Both:
- Keep shadow fire away from the pedestals.
- Keep lower half of the room free of shadow fire - that's where we run around in, to see positions of guards better.

Shiver-locker:
- Freeze vana.
- Freeze one of the guards too when they appear.
- Freeze/kill slags.
- Water mask.
- Water if possible, to get rid of shadow fire and remove fireballs.
With max CTR on bombs, I have plenty of time to do other stuff.

My friend:
- Kill slag guards. The second one will be served on a silver platter (i.e. frozen).
- Kill slags.
- Kill Vana.
- Standby near mask to kill it.
- Water if possible, to get rid of shadow fire and remove fireballs.
My friend use FoV + BTS + Dmg trinkets for killing slag guards. In 2P runs, slag guard dies instantly from one charge.

Did several successful runs like that... now I have a FoV as well, and is going to train myself to play the guard slayer role.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 15:19

#24

Dancinjen

Guys, his ONLY argument in

Guys, his ONLY argument in this thread is this...

"Watering Vanaduke in order to use Shivermist is pointless."

conclusion: It IS pointless. You do NOT need to water vana to use the shivermist.

There are other situations where it wouldn't be pointless but he's talkiing about needing to water vanaduke to use the shivermist... and that is pointless. You don't need to water vana to use the shivermist.

let me say it again.

YOU DON'T NEED TO WATER VANADUKE TO USE THE SHIVERMIST.

Got it?

Good.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 16:35

#25

Kickthebucket

you don't need to kill the

you don't need to kill the slag GUARDS eighter :p (slag walkers yes, the fire breath is anoying as it cancels the charge up)

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 17:01

#26

Isomorphize

Using shivermist on vana is

Using shivermist on vana is the wrong way to kill him to begin with, as is watering the floor for the most part.

-Entropize

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 17:51

#27

Dancinjen

There is no wrong way to kill

There is no wrong way to kill vana.. there is only killing vana and not killing vana.

Some ways are just faster than others, and more logical.

Fri, 04/27/2012 - 21:15

#28

Dark-Flare

It's a bit unproductive to

It's a bit unproductive to have the shiverer watering vana. The jobs work better as two separate people.

Edit: Oh wait. Dancinjen already anwsered that. Why are we still here?

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 01:36

#29

Alice-In-Pyroland

Ya know, what bothers me is

Ya know, what bothers me is that I'm the only bomber I've ever seen in FSC use Shiver and Venom Veiler is unison. You keep Vana poisoned throughout the entire fight, increasing dps significantly (Without people having to fumble around with vials) and it's a decent enough bomb to use throughout the citadel as well, particularly if you bring vortex (Which you really should if you're a half decent bomber).

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 01:41

#30

Halifix

Echoez, when did you change

Echoez, when did you change your avatar?
Also, you go into FSC with 3 bombs? ...I suppose I could do the same if everyone else in my party has blitz.

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 03:45

#31

Alice-In-Pyroland

I can easily go through the

I can easily go through the entirety of Citadel with four bombs, outside of lag spikes Firestorm's not even a moderately difficult stratum, I'd almost say RJP and even IMF are harder in their own right. That being said I almost exclusively run with guild members so I know up-front exactly what everyone's using. Being a good bomber is as much about co-ordinating with your partners and making sure your set-up works for your team as it is about being good solo.

Vortex / Shiver / VV / RSS is my go to bombing loadout for FSC, vortex basically carries any semi-competent team through the whole of FSC and Shiver has it's utility for trojans and vana. RSS is just their so you can periodically do your own thing (D25 for example), although if you aren't pure bombing you could always swap it out for a sword or gun if you prefer.

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 10:32

#32

Lordnamechange

i good shiver

Add Lordnamechange to your friends list if u need a Shiver mist that has a mass amount of experience at shiver locking vanaduke im not in need of tokens or money and i always have a elevator pass so i don't mind jumping in at any lvl or any time if u ever have problems getting a shiv for vana just send me an invite im on SK a lot i make sure to get at least 20 runs in of something a day

~Manly-Pants

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 11:53

#33

Dancinjen

hey echoez, that's my exact

hey echoez, that's my exact loadout i bring with me. lol. Venom veilor is a good bomb to bring.

It's not that we NEED shiver. It's to better control vana when people don't know how to stay behind him while shooting. I know things falling and fire being everywhere is really hard on my laptop and I need something to control that.

It's about, for me, making something that is controlled and clean.

Search

Watering Vanaduke in order to use Shivermist is pointless.