Spiral Knights - Lockdown Class Bonuses

Lockdown Class Bonuses

20 replies [Last post]

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 17:43

Trollingyou

Altering the Bonuses of the Lockdown class mods may help balance it some. My ideas are...

Striker:

- Change Sword Damage bonus: Medium to Sword Charge Reduction Time: Medium
- Reduce Strike Booster duration by 1/3 OR have meter gradually refill, like recon is right now.
- Increase health penalty to a more appropriate level (-5 to -10?)

What it will do is force sword strikers to choose between damage or sustainability, cause now they will need a sword damage trinket to achieve maximum damage. The reduced booster duration will make them have to use it more wisely, instead of being able to boost freely. The CTR bonus will help encourage more charge use, as some swords have excellent charge attacks and there's nothing (That I know of anyway) outside of trinkets that boosts this.

Recon:

- Take away Bomb Charge time Reduction: Medium
- Increase radar radius by 15 percent OR have recon's shield energy deplete some per hit, like guardian's OR...
...Have "!" lower defenses and death mark lower movement speed
- Auto-target disabled on cloaked recon

Taking away bomb CTR is because right now anyone with a level 10 bomb can have max bomb CTR time, and it renders 2/4 bomber sets practically useless. As for radar ideas, the first will allow easier mark placement, but make it harder to sneak up. The second is to make it so you cannot eliminate a recon's marking by just hitting them once with something while they are invisible. The third is a buff to the death mark, further punishing people for letting the deathmark get on to them, and because the "!" right now is essentially a warning to opponents that a recon is nearby and only harms the recon, not helps.

Guardian:

- Add Bomb Damage Bonus: Medium
- Increase the shield's health by 10 percent
- Make it so mist bombs do not rapidly hit the shield

Right now, the shield simply breaks too fast. Even my guns can take out the shield in a short amount of time with no outside help. A single unit should not be able to cripple a guardian's defenses so easily. Bomb damage bonus will give a boost to bombers who use it, to make their DPS bombs more of a threat, making people think twice before rushing into a bomber's range.

Comments? Suggestions? Disagreements? Flaming?

EDIT: added more ideas to recon and striker.

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 19:43

Faronel

Hm...

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on everything but the Guardian.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 22:35

Trollingyou

Care to elaborate

It's nice to know you disagree, but why?

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 20:14

Faronel

Well...

Maybe I should have put that... XD

Anyways... I think that the Striker should stay unaltered because many swords have a useless charge. *Cough* Cutter line *Cough* and I think that the boost time is fine.

For the recon, I don't understand why bomb should be taken away. I am a partial bomber myself, and how would taking my bonus away make me feel special? Anyways, I feel the radius should be left alone. Also, what's the point of removing a cloaked recon's auto-target?

As for the guardian, it needs to be upgraded. 4 hits, and a guardian's doomed.

Sat, 04/28/2012 - 21:09

Trollingyou

I see....

Reason why I suggested changing the bonus on striker class was because it essentially let's sword users who use it have both maximum offense and super high defenses, which should not be the case. If you want awesome defense, you should look to guardian. I've seen a lot of people successfully use the Brandish charge and even saw a GF charge that forced our team back. Also keep in mind the speed bonus will still be there. As for the strike booster, right now it doesn't have enough limitation and is essentially a free movement speed boost. You can traverse half of a big map with the strike booster and it will be ready again in 3 seconds.

As for recon, it will still have it's universal charge time reduction, so bombs will still get a bonus. I thought that by taking away the bomb specific one the bomber gear would be more valuable, cause right now anyone with a level 10 bomb can achieve max charge time reduction just by using recon, which I think is not fair for people in bomber gear. Auto target should not be able to track a cloaked recon, it makes the ability a lot less useful. As for the radar size increase, I thought that be extending it it would make the death mark more prevalent, instead of trying to change the death mark itself.

Thanks for the feedback though, would like to see more opinions on this.

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 10:27

Blue-Phaze

I like it.

It sounds quite balanced to me, I agree with most points you made, but only meticulous testing would tell for sure.
But I believe a Lockdown veteran would be a better appraiser than me, since I don't play much of it.
+1

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 18:47

Trollingyou

@Blue-Phaze

Thanks for the feedback. Would like to hear more from others too.

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 16:24

Skold-The-Drac

@trolling

Nice thoughts... but in the end toothpickers would just QQ and ragequit. Us die-hards wouldn't leave.... but I think testing would be required before implementation...

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 16:49

Tenkii

Recon

A few things:
- Chaos Cloak/Hood is + CTR for all weapons
- Can someone run some tests for recon cloak and autotarget? I really don't believe it.
- The bomb bonus on Recon actually does a few good things:
- - - It gives one of the more vulnerable classes (hi recon) a way to defend itself and hold points (bombs).

All it takes is a stray bullet and a Recon is a sitting duck with no way to hold areas.

- - - It lets bombers use their damage sets (Mad Bomber, Bombastic set).

Also, it means that bombers who do have their bomber armor can use something more like guardian and take more of a defensive/support stance.

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 16:52

Blue-Phaze

Blue-PhaZe ;)or Blue, for

Blue-Phaze =p
or Blue, for short.

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 18:16

#10

Skold-The-Drac

@Seiran

Auto-target hones near the recon for about a half second (definitely long enough) at the minimum after the recon cloaks.
I know because I recon nearly all the time and have used auto-aim against fellow recons, while the cursor occasionally is no longer there... I will typically hit the recon 5 times out of 6 with even a single antigua shot (my worst aim weapon). My big issue here is that latency is most likely the reason behind such an abuse of auto target. And, barring removal of auto-aim, is an unavoidable issue.

As far as Recon being a sitting duck.. an uncloaked recon (no matter the set) is basically swiss cheese, all it is is an extra strike from a toothpick (or a hammer) and that's the game for Recon.

Honestly I see these buffs working a lot better in the clone wars. But, that's only my opinion.

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 19:06

#11

Trollingyou

Thanks for the feedback

@Blue-Phaze - My apologies, it has been corrected.

@Skold-The-Drac - I agree there, would not be good to find out something exploitable after it has been implemented. I imagine there will be QQing (that is expected and almost unavoidable) though I don't think there will be so much rage quitting. All a skolver clone would need to do to get max damage again is simply give up one health trinket for a damage trinket. Yes, it is a cost, but they can still wear one if they so choose to. It's more to put their health in line with the other classes, or make them give up some damage for extra health, like the other weapons have to do.

@Seiran Like - Skold-The-Drac, I have too experienced what I believe is auto-target locking onto a cloaked recon. I often times sneak up behind a guy who is currently focused on a teammate, and in the middle of his combo on my teammate, his character whips around and hits me instead, while I'm invisible. Funny thing is sometimes they pause briefly wondering what happened only to realize they hit me.

Bear in mind like I mentioned above, that recon does possess a universal CTR that I did not suggest to take away, so bombers will still get a boost from it. The reason why I thought about taking it out was because even if your not a bomber and have a UV-less level 10 bomb, you automatically have maximum charge time reduction on bombs. Also keep in mind Mad Bomber gets maximum charge time reduction on level 10 bombs even without the recon bonus, so really this bonus only helps Bombastic, making it a mad bomber suit without the penalties.

Thanks for the feedback though. Would like to hear more opinions on this.

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 23:38

#12

Hexzyle

The striker health reduction

The striker health reduction also needs to be fixed. The -3 health penalty is a 60% health reduction in tier 1 (or a 50% if you are wearing vitasuit), but in tier 3, Where everyone has armour that gives like 8 extra bars, it's only a 23% reduction.

The health penalty needs to be scaled per tier.

I think that rather than switching all the bonuses at once, one class should be changed at a time (starting with the buffs for the recon) and then then rest come in the ensuing weeks. This will allow people to test each set of bonuses to check if they are ok.

Wed, 05/02/2012 - 00:50

#13

Hexzyle

@Devil-Xtreme

"and bombing shud be BANNED in Iockdown"

So just eliminate a whole 1/3rd of the weapon classes used in this game just because you don't like it? At least a provide a reason.

Wed, 05/02/2012 - 01:17

#14

Psychodestroyer

...

"bombing shud be BANNED in Iockdown"

Whatever opinion I have of you has dropped severely.

I HATE it when people rage on other classes.

Especially for PERSONAL reasons that don't matter to ANYONE else.

Wed, 05/02/2012 - 09:28

#15

Serell

I love bombers... when they're on my side.

I give this a +1, i feel it would make it more balanced.
Though i would rather they just get rid of all the classes altogether, i feel that would make LD balanced without to much work.
But if they are going to keep the classes, i would like your suggestion to be implemented.

Wed, 05/02/2012 - 19:59

#16

Trollingyou

---

@Devil-Xtreme - If your having trouble against bombs and you use a sword, then you may need to invest in a gun. Trust me, it will make them much easier. As for gunners, your boost is running out cause you are dashing too much. Don't just dash around and try to hit them, a good gunner will take advantage of this. Your opinions are your opinions, but I, and many others, can tell you they are wrong. Also keep in mind, this will actually nerf gun strikers as they too will have less boost to use.

@Serell - The classes are kinda needed, or LD will turn into Polaris-down. I know very few players that can get by my Polaris spam without a class mod.

@Hexzyle - Testng one class at a time would be good as you mentioned. I'll also add the health penalty thing to striker, though I was concerned about nerfing it too much. If it's scaled just right though it should be appropriate. I think a 60% health reduction would be too much for T3 though.

Thanks for the feedback as always. Any other opinions?

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 14:51

#17

Trollingyou

More ideas in OP

Added more ideas in OP to recon and striker.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 20:28

#18

Pauling

Bombs as an aid to spawn camping

Per bombers... earlier, I played on a T3 forest lockdown map. One point I will make is that some maps have only a narrow hallway leading out of the locker room, which can be completely blocked by 1-2 people with 5* freeze/shock bombs. That's a cheap tactic that allows you to take total control of the board.

But I think the solution is to redraw lockdown maps to prevent spawn camping, rather than to ban bombs. I'd like to see more (and wider) locker room exit areas that can't be bottled up, and, perhaps, some sort of "friendly" rocket puppy serving as a guardian whenever you hover too close to the other team's base.

More generally, I'd also like to see the respawn timers adjusted when a match gets too imbalanced, or when one player leaves... something to encourage more competition and avoid matches with a score of 900-20.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 21:32

#19

Addisond

We don't really need to mega-nerf strikers

Strikers aren't really the problem here, though a higher health reduction (preferably OOO changes these to be percentage-based) would be nice. I'd say take out 1/3 health. I also think that we should change other health mods to be percentage based (talking about ones from LD class mods only).

The roots of the problem are:

Guardians are highly vulnerable to pulsars and haze bombs when clumped, and gangbangable otherwise.

Recons are underpowered, and their special ability is much too easily interrupted, which leaves them helpless.

Both can't move.

Okay, that's an exaggeration, but seriously, they don't move very well. I don't really have a good solution to this, outside of (maybe) introducing inter-point teleportation in return for a broken booster on arrival (and only available if your team has capped the point you're teleing to). Another simple buff is this: make it easier for guardians/recons to get out of the gates. This can be done by shortening the distance to the battlefield on respawn, perhaps letting players choose between the health pads and the locker room?

As for buffing in other ways, recons need to be stronger. Just do. I think we may want to give them some bonuses on swords instead of penalties, as well as all other weapons. OR we could give them some new powers, like (this is a crappy example, I'm just throwing something out) a fake decoy player that you manipulate while stealthing by aiming the mouse.

Buffing guardians is tricky. They're currently a bit hard to unsettle, but that doesn't matter much in a well-organized team that can team up on individuals. However, I think that's how they SHOULD be, but I don't think we want to make them any harder to do so on. I think that, most importantly, we need to make them less vulnerable from afar. Give them gun bonuses to fire back. Also, in regards to teaming up and gangbanging, what about shield bumping? Why not bring it into PvP? It'd allow guardians to shed auto-aim spammers away, though they'd still have to use some finesse when fighting good players.

Aaaanyway, that's what I think about this.

Sun, 05/06/2012 - 22:24

#20

Trollingyou

@Spawn camping bombers

This tactic can be easily dismantled by a variety of guns, seeing guns have a longer range than most all bombs, save the RSS. They can either choose to continue spamming and take damage until they die or retreat. Also what maps do you speak of, to my knowledge all maps have multiple ways out of the locker room.

Your other ideas are good imo, though this is mainly focusing on the LD classes. Wouldn't mind a discussion of it though. Might make another thread about it later, unless you make one first, lol.

@Addisond

Yes, striker is an issue. The main issue with striker right now is that it eliminates a few things: Swordies main weakness and gunners main advantage, and to some extent bombers advantage. In all three scenarios, it's their range. With the strike booster, a swordie can zoom up very fast to a distant target, when before they had to maneuver and plan how they were going to get close. On top of that it is the only class to give a damage bonus, which means a lot in LD. People who use swords with striker and skolver/snarby do not have to use a trinket to obtain maximum damage bonus. Along with a speed UV and strikers speed bonus, they don't have to put anything towards their offensive abilities, leaving room for two health trinkets. No other class/weapon/whatever combination has the capacity to achieve this, not even vog/striker, and a good portion of the imbalance is here.

I don't think recon needs to loose it's sword penalty, as it's only a small one and the only sword penalty in the LD classes. As for making the class stronger, I do agree with you there, but it should be made stronger in the way the class works, not in it's bonuses. A fake decoy player sounds interesting, but the problem is that you need to uncloak to attack and it may be awkward to control. It's just be better to buff the radar in some way.

A good team with a guardian can be rather hard to take down, but if the other team simply keeps their distance they can mitigate the guardians defenses. Also, gunners can shoot through the other team and hit the guardian to break the shield. The reason why I suggested increasing the shields health was to make guardians a less desirable target and further make the other teams attacks go to waist when attacking a guardian, as he's supposed to help soak up damage with his shield. When I encounter a lone guardian, 9/10 times it's a free kill for me, unless someone comes to help him. Increasing shield health will help stop this from happening. Shield bumping won't help, cause most attacks do not happen directly next to you.

As for mobility issues, it's not that recon and guardian are too slow, it's that striker is too fast too much. Recon actually has more mobility than you do in the clockworks due to faster shield movement, and guardian has about the same. Striker should be fast, but you should be punished for carelessly using it.

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Lockdown Class Bonuses