Spiral Knights - Three Rings, don't be afraid to deliver the balance changes we need. Make weapons work differently in PvP.

Three Rings, don't be afraid to deliver the balance changes we need. Make weapons work differently in PvP.

12 replies [Last post]

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 21:40

No-Fun-Allowed

No, seriously. Do you know how many weapons were nerfed or tweaked because of the PvP argument? A lot. If I recall correctly, the last one to get nerfed to oblivion because of "hurr durr lockdown" was the Dark Retribution.

Please, just stop nerfing weapons because they're overpowered in Lockdown, do us all a favor and undo those unnecessary nerfs and have them work in Lockdown only. I hate having my weapons ruined because of one insignificant game mode. If you have the weapons nerfed only in Lockdown, the PvP knights won't complain, and the PvE knights will be happy again.

Mind you, I'm not saying ALL nerfs should be re-directed to Lockdown, only the unnecessary nerfs that were patched because of weapons that were broken in PvP. Seriously, the game would be so much better if they did this. And other games I've seen with PvP have the same idea, so why not us?

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 21:57

Trying

Do you know how many weapons were nerfed or tweaked because of the PvP argument?
Yes. 0 to be exact.

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 22:00

Shue-Donnym

No subject line spam here, move along

Silly, OOO nerfed the DR because only swords can be powerful.

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 22:10

No-Fun-Allowed

@Trying

I can't tell if you're trolling or stupid, no offense.

The last weapon that was meant to be nerfed for PvP was Dark Retribution, but it was nerfed in PvE as well. There might have been a few others that were changed due to PvP, but the fact that they did that means they might do it again. Either way if we have weapons work differently in PvP it could make balancing the game much easier, because Three Rings is very indecisive and careful when it comes to balance.

Can you explain why this isn't a good idea? Or do you just feel like not contributing?

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 22:20

Luguiru

A three sided coin

Technically it was because Dark Retribution was ridiculously overpowered in damage and speed, highly outperforming everything else. It can still technically keep up with other bombs, but it requires a large group of enemies or something absurdly large enough to make contact with orbs often enough to compensate for the low damage per hit. It still works, but is best used for those massive waves of enemies rather than a couple remaining enemies. Was it nerfed for Lockdown? Possibly, but from personal use of its mechanic before being nerfed it was the most overpowered bomb ever; it made Nitronome look like a 3* with 5* range.

What would I like to see changed? Rapier/Flourish/Snarble Barb lines on the first swing, lower the knockback a little; I use Final Flourish for Vanaduke runs and connecting multiple swings in the combo is only possible if the first swing makes contact while your character is standing close enough to hug them. There have also been complaints of the knockback for the first swing in Lockdown.

Pulsar. There are two types of Pulsar users: spam or support. Spammers use it against everything everywhere forever. I did a Vanaduke run with someone today who did this with Polaris; everyone lagged and it was awful. Support Pulsar users only use it for the knockback, allowing the bullet to travel behind the enemy and exploding to bring it close or only firing enough to keep the enemy away. Support users appear somewhat rare. What should be done about it? Some say lower its clip size, others reduce the knockback. I would be down for changing its clip to two from its original three shot clip and lowering the knockback a little; not removing the knockback, not making it barely noticeable anymore; about a half space worth. No one likes when someone frolics around and spams Pulsar on everything, preventing others from attacking it due to constant knockback out of their range.

If anyone has anything else to put the spotlight on, bring forth the accused.

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 22:28

Skold-The-Drac

Copy + Paste + Argument = Post

"Mind you, I'm not saying ALL nerfs should be re-directed to Lockdown, only the unnecessary nerfs that were patched because of weapons that were broken in PvP. Seriously, the game would be so much better if they did this. And other games I've seen with PvP have the same idea, so why not us?"

Because this is Spiral Knights and OOO, apparently there aren't enough people paying OOO for these changes to be given serious thought. (On the other side of that token) If they were to send an email to all users requesting feedback (with a link to area to receive feedback) simply stating (of course with legal-ese inserted) that they would attempt a rebalancing patch which could, potentially, bring down servers for a day. I presume they would receive a ton of feedback to the positive of such patch.

"Please stop nerfing weapons because they're OP in LD, do us a favor and undo the unnecessary nerfs for PvE and make them PvP applicable only. I [loathe] my weapons being ruined because of one insignificant [minigame]."

Honestly, I see LD as a bit of an equalizer for our weapon balancing... but, in the end, Dark Retribution's nerf proves that LD's intended for toothpicking clone wars only (since it was, after all a shadow bomb for which no toothpicker prepares)... and that bombs that become competitive should be nerfed to oblivion. (Anybody happen to see a DR recently? Bet you the sightings are low.) So, I've actually come to agree with this portion.

"No, seriously. Do you know how many weapons were nerfed or tweaked because of the PvP argument? A lot. If I recall correctly, the last one to get nerfed to oblivion because of "hurr durr lockdown" was the Dark Retribution."

Now, inb4 people continuously flame you and say LD's not the only reason. It indeed is NOT the ONLY reason those weapons become nerfed. However nobody can say those posts do not carry any weight. As I recall DR's big complaints were that the SHADOW weapon was OP to JK. (rather cruel joke that a faust is the same but isn't nerfed) And that the same SHADOW weapon was dropping clones left and right who happen to not carry much shadow defense.... [insert youdon'tsay.gif]. (Argue with me all you like.)

In the end I agree with this post. PvE=/=PvP and that PvE should get a different nerf series than PvP. But alas the coding is likely much for OOO at the moment. So, everyone, pull out your wallet and donate 6 bucks in the form of an Elevator Pass. Perhaps if we spike OOOs pay they'll give us this. Or new armor....

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 23:08

Fehzor

I favor weapons working

I favor weapons working differently in PVP. This will allow us to move beyond the fact that we need the piercing swords to be both infective in PvP and extra effective in PvE.

Sun, 04/29/2012 - 23:36

Aemicus

I don't get why everyone

I don't get why everyone thinks you need to have a FF with ASI VH, rocket hammer, polaris, and skolver to do well in lockdown. I've done quite a bit of it wearing all 4* armor, with a boltbrand as my only 4* weapon, and 2 3* heart trinkets. I did have ASI low on my boltbrand, but that was my only effective UV, and I DID FINE. I wasn't doing 5 digits of damage with 20 caps, but I was consistently doing above 7K with a few caps and defends to my name. It's not about what you have, you just need to find a strategy that works for you.

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 03:02

Hexzyle

It's a fairly simple

It's a fairly simple adjustment to make weapons work differently in Lockdown. Just how your shield is automatically switched with the shield you use per class, entrance to lockdown could change certain weapons to a "lockdown-only" variant.

So the Dark Retribution could stay in PvE like it was pre-nerf, and entering lockdown will mean you'll have it replaced with a "lockdown-retribution".
Similarly, A Final Flourish would be replaced with "Final Rapier" or something like that, with nerfed range etc.

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 18:19

Aemicus

@Hexyle

I don't think you understand. Dark Retribution was not nerfed because of it's lockdown damage, but because it completely destroyed the RJ. Have you seen the videos of it vs him pre nerf?

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 18:43

#10

Serell

The DR could kill the Jelly

The DR could kill the Jelly King in 15 seconds. That is way overpowerd. Now I'm not saying swords should be better than everything else, but bombing is for support, no bomb should be able to kill a boss in 15 seconds.

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 18:59

#11

Doctorspacebar

"bombing is for

"bombing is for support"

Nitro, DBB, RSS and AoA say hello.

DR is still pretty good, and wipes out JK in mere seconds. Plus, it's great for Polyps, which can't be Shard-sniped, and can decimate large groups of Gremlins and Slimes.

Now, on-topic, toothpicks are pretty ridiculous and nerfs to its interrupt need to be applied to at least Lockdown. It's really mainly used on enemies that are very very very easily interrupted (Devilites, Wolvers, Greavers) or enemies that don't get interrupted by much at all (Trojans). Still, I think LD-only nerfs would make sense for Flourish and other overpowered weapons.

Mon, 04/30/2012 - 19:07

#12

Alpha-Stevo

@Serell

While bombing has been given quite a support role, I honestly believe it should not solely be used FOR support.

As Doktorbarspace has mentioned, there are several bombs that are VERY good at killin' things, and killin' a lot of things, and killin' a lot of things rather fast. Someone who is soloin' a level should not have to stamp vaporizers around, waitin' for the combination of Fire and Poison to kill their enemies. Speaking of which, guns and swords should be on level with bombs, in that they can provide some form of support AND can also be used for damage.

Telling a bomber he can't kill just 'cuz bombs are 'for support' is a silly thing to me.

On topic, I really do enjoy the idea of havin' special Lockdown nerfs that ONLY applied in Lockdown. It would certainly level the playing field so that the guy with a Freezing Atomizer can stand something of a chance against a tooth-pick squirrel with max attack speed, damage, and freeze resistance.

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Three Rings, don't be afraid to deliver the balance changes we need. Make weapons work differently in PvP.