Spiral Knights - OOO secrecy READ HERE IF YOU CARE

OOO secrecy READ HERE IF YOU CARE

26 replies [Last post]

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:18

Fires-Wrath

"There are some things being worked on-but in order to preserve the "surprise", even GMs don't know ahead of time. I can understand how frustrating it can be not knowing, but on the other hand, there are other things to keep in mind. How frustrating would it be to hear that we did have something planned-and then have it delayed longer than you anticipated? Or that it turned out it simply wasn't possible to do and the idea had to be scrapped altogether after you've been looking forward to it for weeks or months? Additionally-there are only so many hours in the day for our developers to investigate, verify and program fixes for bugs, design and implement new content and offer technical support. That's usually where their focus is-actually programming rather than writing about what they are hoping to program in the future! I hope this helps explain some of the reasons behind the "secrecy". When they do have time, when they've reached a point where they feel an update they've been working on is possible and won't have to be scrapped altogether, and is close to being finished, they may then take a few moments to give updates if they don't think it will ruin the surprise! We'd have that posted in public however, for all users to see."

-taken from a support request from a GM.

i can be patient, when i see all my friends playing different games.

I am tired of not knowing what the future holds for this game. I want to know what the developers are working on. I can name a ton of games that allow people to know what updates will come in the future. The point is that all there is not much to do right now on spiral knight for endgame people. WE NEED CONTENT....

Average day for a end gamer craft for profit, buy accessories, do FSC and prestige and repeat, sounds like a grind in itself. When they run out of mist they just look at the ah for potential profit.....

Short version: Create developmental updates/posts/articles on how far a project is going along to keep the community happy. KEEP THE COMMUNITY INFORMED on FUTURE UPDATES.... IT can still be a surprise! Just not as secret.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:20

Xylka-Mkii

^ This +1

^ This

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:25

Bopp

is this game your entire life?

Is this game your entire life? I hope not. While you are waiting for updates to this game, DO SOMETHING ELSE.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:27

Fires-Wrath

i don't play this game that

i don't play this game that much, it's a point that i wanted to get across bopp

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:33

Bopp

okay, too harsh

Okay, my post was probably too harsh and angry. Sorry.

I just get tired of seeing countless threads along the lines of, "Why has OOO introduced new accessories, when what they really need is new content?" We all know that, when the new boss is a week old, we'll all have played it tens of times, and we'll be tired of it, and asking for new content already.

Three Rings simply cannot produce content as fast as we want it. I wish they could, but they can't.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:46

Fires-Wrath

I know bopp but the main

I know bopp but the main thing of my post is about creating like developmental posts/articles/updates on whats to come. So even if a update is around the corner this won't happen again. The "End game idea" that is now

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 19:05

Byas

Yeah, something like a devblog could solve it. Of course you guys don't need to share every little project since most of them get scraped during the development but at least something not to let the community in the dark for too long.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 19:17

Yudrig

Bad for the dev team either way.

>don't inform
"BLAH BLAH BLAH THIS GAME IS GOING DOWNHILL I QUIT IT IS STUPID"
"OOO IS EVILLLLL"
"THIS GAME IS WAST OF $$$$$$!!!1"

>inform
"THAT'S A DUMB UPDATE, DUMBUSDJ"
"I DON'T LIKE WHERE THIS IS GOING I QUITIJSDK"
"OMG NO THIS GAME KEEPS CHANGING BETA/STEAM/1972 WAS BETTER I QUIT"

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 19:29

Pokenuevo

Yudrig, I barely see people

Yudrig, I barely see people complain as such at real updates.
Real updates = Updates with gear rebalancing or even content
Now, if we were to get things such as "What's in Development", that would be great.*
I think that satisfaction > surprise in this case
They are preparing for summer when the masses come

*I tried making a thread about this and got no replies :o

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 19:36

Kive

1/2+

as much as I love this idea this would create deadlines for the devs that isnt neccesary. also if the idea got scrapped then people would be mad, this would also work vice versa if they announced something and people hated on it before even seeing it would probably hurt the devs. I overall have a feeling some of this was related to the core -.-

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 19:44

#10

Thimol

hey I have something important to say too

-----

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 22:01

#11

Anglefire

@Sylvanius

I LOVE THAT IDEA!!!!!!!!

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 01:26

#12

Shoebox

Gabe Newell doesn't count his own money, don't be silly.

The real secret is that they're too busy counting money to program.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 02:13

#13

Toastnaut

As an aside

All of the reasons explained above (which I agree with) why we aren't told in advance, or often even hinted about what's coming until RIGHT when it's ready are great, but I think that players overlook one too often.

People complain, whine, and criticise so much with every update. Of course you can't please everyone, so there will always be complaints both legitimate, and not - but at least when they're complaining after the fact, it's already done.

If the developers released more details in advance, I can only imagine how much more whining, begging, and pleading they'd have to deal with from players who don't like their own concept (accurate or not) of what the future update holds.

I'd love to see more posts like the "what's in development" ones we've gotten with vague hints and innuendos about what's being worked on (with or without an ETA) but I don't think that having anything more specific than that in advance would be worth having to see a hundred posts a day on the forum begging OOO to not go through with an update that they're working on. I can only imagine what that would be like for the guys DOING the work.

Plus, surprises are nice.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 04:05

#14

Blitzwingoo

My opinion....

"How frustrating would it be to hear that we did have something planned-and then have it delayed longer than you anticipated?"

OOO: Sorry the planned feature has been delayed another month
Player: Awww damn, I was all ready to try it out. I guess I'll have to wait another month.

OOO: (Silence to preserve Surprise)
Player: When is new content coming out?
OOO: (Silence)
Player: You are planning on releasing new content right?
OOO: (Silence)
Player: Seriously when the HELL is new stuff coming out?
OOO: (Silence)
Player: Are you even working on anything new!?
OOO: (Silence)
Player: (Stops buying CE Packs, CE Prices go up)
OOO: New update released, accessories with purchase of CE Packs
Player: Accessories? Well I'm thankful you released something, where's the new content?!
OOO: (Silence)

"Or that it turned out it simply wasn't possible to do and the idea had to be scrapped altogether after you've been looking forward to it for weeks or months?"

OOO: Hey sorry guys, we really wanted it to work as much as you guys but in the end we couldn't get it to work
Player: Damn! $!$@#!
Player: Well at least they told us straight, they got guts
Player: aw man, sad face
No Player: You did that on purpose, you can do it....you just don't want to! You're just feeding on our tears!

OOO: (Silence to preserve Surprise)
Player: Hey any new content planned?
OOO: (Silence....Planned Content didn't work, scrapped....Silence)
Player: Seriously you even working on anything?
OOO: (Silence)

-----

What happens when they do surprise me? Yeah it's great and all, out of the blue......but the rest of the time listening to silence sucks and doesn't instill confidence they are do much of anything.

If they had the guts to tell us straight about what's going on, I could respect them and think they're treating us fairly by keeping us appraised of what's going on.....good or bad.

Silence and secrecy is cowardice in my opinion, that's looking down on us from a position of superiority. Think of any relationship where one party keeps secrets in the false notion of "we're not telling them because they can't handle the truth and/or they'll look down on us if they knew", those aren't very good relationships and certainly not treating the other party as an equal nor fairly.

"That's usually where their focus is-actually programming rather than writing about what they are hoping to program in the future!"

Does OOO not have a marketing person or PR person? If not, stop being cheap and hire one....it's hurting your product. If so, why aren't they doing their job and instead making the programmers do it? Reprimand or fire that marketing/PR person.

TL;DR: Secrecy is Cowardice, self serving, and damaging. Openness is respectable, courageous, and fair. I do not believe their stance of secrecy to preserve the surprise as a benefit to us....they think it's more of a benefit to them by only showing us their successes and none of their failures.

Edit: If secrecy is to preserve the surprise....what's with Stealth Patches? Changes that are never listed on the patch notes nor ever admitted afterwards. It's happened before on numerous occasion. Was those for surprise too? Yeah right....

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 04:34

#15

Xylka-Mkii

Blitz, that was perfect.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 04:55

#16

Draycos

+1 Blitz. I can understand

+1 Blitz.

I can understand not wanting players raging and criticizing upcoming updates, but saying absolutely nothing is much worse.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 05:08

#17

Bopp

not really

Blitzwingoo knows more about marketing video games than a video game company does? I don't know Blitzwingoo, so he might --- but I doubt it.

This "secrecy is cowardice" concept is absurdly naive. Many companies keep their plans secret until they come to fruition. When Blitzwingoo plays poker, does he simply lay his cards on the table, for everyone to see? I doubt it.

Here's an exercise: Try to justify why Three Rings acts with secrecy. If you try this sincerely, you will quickly discover several reasons (some of which have already been stated in this thread), and it will seem more reasonable to you.

To demonstrate my sincerity, I just did this exercise in reverse. I asked myself, "What information could Three Rings pre-announce reasonably?" I came up with: Game changes that require no significant code or artwork, but are just tweaking of variables or slight changes in policy. This might mitigate the economic disruptions that come with every update. On the other hand, it might simply cause those disruptions to happen earlier. It depends on how many people read the pre-announcements.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 07:02

#18

Pauling

I enjoy seeing devs post, but

I enjoy seeing devs post, but every minus they spend on the forums is a minute less spent on actually developing stuff.

And on a small team, that's a big loss.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 07:15

#19

Fehzor

They do make development

They do make development posts, so I'm fine with that.

Although it would be nice if they updated us more often etc, I'd rather they work more than post here to tell us of their progress.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 07:29

#20

Blitzwingoo

@Bopp

"Blitzwingoo knows more about marketing video games than a video game company does? I don't know Blitzwingoo, so he might --- but I doubt it."

I think that would depend on the video game company, I'm sure out there somewhere there's a video game company with an atrocious marketing department that I know better than, and I'm sure there's some video game company that knows more than me. As for OOO's marketing department, I can't say for sure without knowing what's going on in that department, but from what I can see.....they're not the best video game company marketing dept and the secrecy isn't helping because at this point I don't even know if they have one if their programmers are supposedly doing it.

"Many companies keep their plans secret until they come to fruition."

Many companies doing something doesn't make it right or the best way. Many companies used to refuse to provide their products online for digital distribution, one company (Valve) decided to make Steam. Were the other companies more right or better than Valve?

Look at Google, they often release new products before they come to fruition and many of them fail. Remember Google Wave? Did this stop Google from being up front with the public? I don't think so. Did it discredit or hurt Google more than the publicity or goodwill they got from it? I don't think so either, I think they're brave for being so open, and I respect them.

"Blitzwingoo plays poker, does he simply lay his cards on the table, for everyone to see? I doubt it."

Actually when I play Texas Holdem, I rarely bluff and I'm a very tight player. All the other players are nervous when they go against me, I'm guessing because they know I'm very likely not bluffing and have strong cards. I'd like to think they respect my playing style because I don't bluff (lie) about what I have too often. I usually make it to the top three so I get payout money. Does this make me the best player? Probably not, but I usually do better than most of the other players that bluff all the time. If you're curious, I learned from watching a Howard Lederer video that teaches what cards are good to hold, and which cards suck and should be folded. That and some other pointers in the video and learned the rest from experience.

However I'm not sure what relevance my poker playing style is, so draw whatever conclusions you wish.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 08:18

#21

Bopp

surprising

You play poker regularly, but rarely bluff? That surprises me --- poker without bluffing seems like a boring exercise in probability --- but it's not central to my point.

Secrecy is not inherently cowardly, unless you use an overly broad definition of cowardice. I keep my passwords and bank account information secret. Is it because I'm a coward? Am I afraid of what people might do, if they knew my passwords? Well, yes, but I wouldn't call it cowardice; I'd call it wisdom. Publishing your passwords and bank accounts on the Internet could be considered brave, but I'd call it foolish.

Of course you are right that the popular choice is not always the correct choice. The companies that pre-announce "product roadmaps" and the like and typically companies that make components that are used by other companies. Google and Intel are like this. When the product is officially launched, they want to have a stable of "success stories" of other companies using the product already. For Google, these projects are also a recruitment tool; they make Google seem like an exciting place. Companies that are closer to end-consumers, such as Apple, have less need to pre-announce, because a consumer can start using the product as soon as it's ready and released.

Following my own advice, I've come up with a couple of reasons why Three Rings should pre-announce:

They need users to pre-test a feature. They did this in the beta stage, and they still do this occasionally on the test servers.
They want to keep users, who are considering giving up the game, enticed with "promises" of future functionality. If a promise is serious, then that's great; if it's not, then that's unethical. In this sense, Three Rings may be simply cautious, in not over-promising. I would rather have them under-promise and over-deliver than the reverse.

I might be done with this thread. I'm not learning anything, and I doubt that I'm teaching anything, either. Cheers. :)

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 16:07

#22

Traevelliath

......

I'm not sure why people seem to be thinking that SK isn't getting frequent updates. Maybe because it takes less time to play a game than it does to make it...

Ever taken a look at all the releases in a calender?
http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Release_calendar

I'll admit they aren't all massive, major releases... but at the same it takes a long time to produce a massive gameplay update. You can't expect them to finish it overnight.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 16:13

#23

Toastnaut

I lol'd

The idea that players would not complain and B**** if they were told about something and then it was delayed or canceled is absurd.

Maybe the most reasonable and mature players would act as suggested above in those situations. Kudos to you if you are one of them. That is not a majority response to those situations.

It's naive to suggest that that's a majority. The Dev post explaining that it's better not to know about things that OOO plans and can't implement in the long run, and that it's better if the players don't have deadlines that can be missed is correct. The majority of players are NOT mature, and are NOT reasonable when confronted with (even minor) disappointment.

I think it would be nice sometimes to know more, or perhaps to hear as much as "yeah, we're working on something cool, we'll be ready to show you all soon!" (which we sometimes do see on Twitter, for example.) Hearing from time to time that the development of new features/content is "on schedule" or "delayed" would be nice too.
People asking for specifics is NOT realistic to expect.

So yeah, complete silence isn't that reassuring in and of itself... except we get updates almost reliably 4-5 our of 10 weeks... so anyone using their brain KNOWS that OOO is working on the game.
If all we got was silence and NO updates, sure it would be troubling, but that's not the case. We are getting very obviously incremental updates balancing finances in the game, weapon/monster/armour interactions, and bug fixes, on top of more content very gradually.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 19:53

#24

Blitzwingoo

@Bopp

"You play poker regularly, but rarely bluff? That surprises me --- poker without bluffing seems like a boring exercise in probability..."

I'm not sure if you play poker....but poker is not exactly about bluffing, it's about how likely you believe you have a better hand than the other people. Bluffing is a risky/foolish move to try and make it harder for other people to guess if they have a better hand than yours. If the other people knows you almost always have a strong hand, you don't need to bluff. Also excitement in poker is not about winning most of the time, it's about those rare times somebody wins when they shouldn't have. The reality is most times people just lose in those situations which isn't exciting either.

Your poker analogy doesn't exactly fit the situation anyways because the game company will always have to "show their cards" eventually, where as in poker the winner doesn't always have to. The only way I can think of a game company bluffing and never having to "showing their cards" in the end is if they keep promising something like "the opening of the core is coming, major update!" over and over again, and then in the end the company shuts down it's servers without releasing the major update.

"I keep my passwords and bank account information secret. Is it because I'm a coward?"

Your passwords is not the same context as OOO telling people what they're working on. The same context would be telling people who need to know that you have a bank account.....people like your wife, employer who needs to deposit your paychecks, companies who you do monthly payments with, credit card companies who you need to pay back, etc. Hiding the fact that you even have a bank account to people who need to know, mean you no harm, that you do business with is disingenuous....possibly dishonest.

"The companies that pre-announce.....Google and Intel are like this.....Companies that are closer to end-consumers, such as Apple, have less need to pre-announce....."

It's their attitude towards their consumers....Take Apple storing iPhone locational data for their GPS function as an example. People were upset with Apple over this, why? Because they didn't tell anybody and tried to keep it a secret. You might think the upset is about the locational data, but it's not. Google does the same thing on Andriod devices, why were people not upset with Google? Because Google told people straight up from the beginning.

There's a Extra Credits Video that talks about this and Sony trying to keep their customers in the dark when one of their services got hacked. It shows why the attitude of keeping customers in the dark is really a terrible practice. There's lots of elements that relate to our situation here.

" If a promise is serious, then that's great; if it's not, then that's unethical. In this sense, Three Rings may be simply cautious, in not over-promising. I would rather have them under-promise and over-deliver than the reverse."

I would rather them honestly tell me what they're working on without any promises than to promise me something but never telling me what they've promised nor what they're doing at the moment.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 21:20

#25

Theonebackthere

Fear of ideas being scraped...

I'd say it's mostly about the fear of saying something is being worked on but then it being scraped or delayed. I've seen this happen before and the community hounds the developers endlessly. It would be nice for some people to know what's in the works but I would rather not know about potential content that didn't work out as intended resulting in the idea being scraped or delayed.

Some things can be shared but overall most things that are important enough to be announced are fairly big updates which would upset a large portion of the community if it didn't come out.

Thu, 05/17/2012 - 03:47

#26

Iskender

Say, does anyone remember

Say, does anyone remember when Nintendo had that page for Super Smash Bros. Brawl?

Y'know, the one where they announced small tidbits about the game five days a weeks for months on end?

I really don't know why OOO couldn't do anything similar, posting little things on a regular basis to not only make it apparent that there's still stuff going on, with upcoming designs or that "10 things" thread, but also to flesh out the world a bit, akin to League of Legends' Journal of Justice, with smaller articles about Cradle.

Hey, when they can have brawls against each other despite being stranded on a planet, why not add a newspaper as well?

Search

OOO secrecy READ HERE IF YOU CARE