My thoughts on LD

Hey all, I wanted to share my thoughts on how to balance LD. Oh no not another balance LD thread right, wrong because I'm not going to talk about all the things I've seen discussed on this topic. The two biggest things I see about balancing LD are remove AA or remove this weapon or that weapon. To be honest I'm glad they haven't removed any weapons from LD play and I think AA is needed for the new crowd even if it is hugely annoying.
I was playing LD last night as a bomber, which is what I always play (thanks for the buff =D) and I was noticing something I think would greatly help balance LD. I know this will irk all of the swordies but here it is any way. I think if shield cancel was taken out of LD it would greatly even the paying field. It's not so bad against a GF/DA or brandishes but if someone shows up with a toothpick and is skilled with shield cancel get ready to respawn in a few because you're going down. Bombers can't do anything like that and as far as I'm aware neither can gunners (I could be wrong about this) so why should the strongest weapon in the game get an extra boost like this. The only real place I see a need for this in game is when one encounters the infamous greevers, I'm sure it's used in many more places but this is the only place I can think of where it saves your hide. Well now that that's said let the hating begin, and tell me yes or no and why.
TL;DR take shield cancel out of LD but if at all possible leave it in PvE.

Well, actually, for all we know, shield canceling could be a glitch just like the pepper box charge. IMO shield canceling defeats the weakness of slow swords completely: wide arc and long range for low attack speed. When cancelling you can spam it like nuts. It is even worse for the toothpicks because they already have such a high attack speed.

Why because a bomber can get some dmg now? I've yet to see a bomber on the leader board so I don't see what the complaint about the RSS is. It's not like we aren't still an easy target.

@Damien Please no nerfs. They are a bait and switch for those who have gotten the weapons, and it's just not right (and no, I do not personally own one).
I wouldn't mind some tweaking of the mechanics of lockdown, maybe adding some new tricks for bombers and gunners?

There's a difference between a nerf and a bugfix, though.

Interesting idea. I appreciate how you did not default to the two suggestions commonly tossed around.
Shield cancel would screw over recons who would have a longer time to being exposed before cloaking, and guardians won't be able to shield as quickly.
The shield cancel would also affect all other swords and guns too. Gunning would be more difficult because you can't shoot-boost-shoot as quickly. Sealed sword animations are also cut shorter by the shield cancel, so you are incorrect to say the other swords would be unaffected. Oddly enough, only bombs would be unaffected as the animation to lower the bomber can't be cancelled (at least as far as I know, this is based on the few bombs that I have).
So ultimately, it's not just flourishes that would be "fixed" by this in lockdown, but the whole pace of the game would be slower and possibly become unappealing. It would essentially come down to a recon game where the goal is to catch someone out of position swinging and smash them.
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Oh, and RSS is easy enough to deal with.

I want to see a slight, 5% decrease in RSS, but a 15% increase in ones like nitronome and BAB, 10% increase on DBB, and a 5% decrease to all haze effects.

Question. In real life, when you swing a sword, or a baseball bat, or a stick, is there some magical force that compels you to swing another two times before you're allowed to bring up a shield, or move, or do the hokey pokey?
Only thing that needs to be changed about shield cancelling is to allow recons to do it when their cloak is broken.

Also, ASI needs to be denied to all heavy swords, even through trinkets

I wasn't saying only toothpicks would be affected, just that the ability to dodge the others despite shield cancel is still there. With a toothpick in the hands of a skilled shield canceler it's near impossible to avoid.

Impossible to avoid you say? How many hours of lockdown did it take for you to come to this conclusion?

You are one of those talented swordies I'm talking about =). When you are carrying a toothpick yourself if you manage to hit the attacker first you break their attack giving you a window of opportunity to get out of there or whatever you do, as a bomber you're almost always dead before you can get your bomb deployed. If I play a bomber striker this makes things easier as I can jet out of there most of the time, but as a recon if you're hit you cant hide or place a bomb quick enough.
Edit* @Thrillhaus I don't expect that a sword bearer should have to make all 3 swings before they can shield. The idea of removing shield canceling would only make the first swing complete a full animation before one could shield. If a swordie wanted to only use the first swing then they would have to do it in the manner of gunners with a 2 clip gun, attack wait attack wait.

I agree with Sypsy and Thrillhaus...
IMO, taking away shield-cancelling will leave using swords in Lockdown a hollow shell with no requirement of skill. All you would have in Lockdown for swordsmen would be AA-spamming clones.
I don't think you've put much thought into your grand solution of "balancing" Lockdown.
As of right now, I see Lockdown as pretty well balanced:
Gunners, bombers, and swordsmen can all be deadly, but any one person who is experienced enough and skilled enough can outmaneuver any other. All it takes is some quick thinking, quick reflexes, and practice.
Btw, +1 Thrillhaus; Recons should be able to shield-cancel even after their cloak is gone.

As much as I agree with your guy's ideas on how to balance lockdown, I'm sorry to say that The gm's won't do crap about it. Lockdown is essentially the same as it was 5 months ago. Flourish spammers, OP hammers, horribly unbalanced armor, etc.
Gunners haven't really gotten any buffs, and the bombers only got 1 real buff (charge holding) focused on them.
Point? The GMs haven't done anything 5 months ago, and they aren't gonna do crap about it now.

I want to see a slight, 5% decrease in RSS, but a 15% increase in ones like nitronome and BAB, 10% increase on DBB, and a 5% decrease to all haze effects.
"Nerf the weapons that kill me, buff the weapons that don't."

only thing i think needs to be fixed real fast in LD is the range... not only toothpick (mostly though)...its a rly annoying bug...

First, hammers are not OP, you're just dumb enough to get hit by it.
Second, RSS is a 4*, doing 5* damage... Yeah, nerf it.

I'm not opposed to a slight RSS nerf provided we get a 5* version. The reason for it's power is because of it's mechanics, having 8 shards to damage rather than a radius of damage and for that reason any nerf would have to be a small one.

You should have mentioned you're a recon. The striker and guardian classes both have effective ways to fight toothpick strikers. The problem with recon is that once your shield is broken, you're unable to shield cancel and are vulnerable to the other classes. However, the recon class isn't meant to be played as a front line fighter to begin with, so if you're trying to go toe to toe with a striker, you should choose another class. The recon works best as a support class with other teammates around to make full use of its status bombing capabilities. Unfortunately, if you're playing in random games, having your team actually play as a team can be difficult to accomplish.
If I were to change anything though, I would give recons the ability to SC even when their cloak is broken, and also a movement speed buff to improve its ambush/back capture abilities.
As for RSS, it's fine the way it is, just learn to get into safe zones before they detonate.

Something you should all know.
Since a recent patch, a Charged weapon will NOT lose its charge if the user is hit.

Thanks for the response Thrill, what you have suggested would be great balancing tools. To be perfectly honest I don't think LD is broken as is but I've seen so many balance LD threads and haven't seen this suggested so I thought I'd throw it out there. Do I find LD frustrating, sure who doesn't at times but that's how it should be. More than anything I just wanted to see what my fellow community of knights thought of this. Thanks for giving your input.
@Xylka I still lose my charge on a charged bomb if I get shocked in LD, possibly OOO could fix this.

Shock was meant to cancel everything...

I finally got around to making my own thread for my suggestions to the recon class. Check it out here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/54879
Well, if your going to take out shield cancel for sword-users, it would be like taking out the RSS for bombers.