Spiral Knights - Fix Attack Speed / Reloading

Fix Attack Speed / Reloading

14 replies [Last post]

Tue, 04/26/2011 - 15:45

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

Increased attack speed makes sword users "refresh" faster between combos, but it does not let gunslingers' reload any faster.

This is broken.

Swords already deal more damage than guns. By allowing the offensive bonuses to be more effective for sword users than gunners you're widening that gap well beyond the point of balance. IAS needs to affect reload time, particularly since for some guns that's the entirety of their attack cycle. Some guns literally gain nothing from IAS courtesy of this problem.

Tue, 04/26/2011 - 17:34

Hazel

Swords put you in the line of

Swords put you in the line of fire. Guns keep you far away and safe.

Risk:Reward.

Tue, 04/26/2011 - 20:15

RamuneDrink

Legacy Username

@Hazel

But guns are still severely underpowered. Realistically, reloads are just one action you perform when using a gun; if you've got a coat that makes gun wielding faster, then wouldn't reloads be faster as well? Swords are way too OP in this game. You relate the risk of sword wielding to the damage output, but don't guns already have the disadvantage in accuracy? Using a gun limits the accuracy: they take more skill to use, so why aren't they that much better?

@Ferox
Agreed. Guns and bombs seem nerfed, and in a weapon system as simple as 1-2-3 the three weapons ought to be equal, right? (goes back to playing StarCraft...)

Tue, 04/26/2011 - 20:20

Hazel

As I recall, much of The

As I recall, much of The Citadel is best performed with guns due to their superior DPS potential and lack of putting you in harm's way.

So, I'm going to repeat:

Risk:Reward.

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 06:44

Stardrinker

Legacy Username

As I recall, much of The

As I recall, much of The Citadel is best performed with guns due to their superior DPS potential and lack of putting you in harm's way.
So, I'm going to repeat:

Risk:Reward.

AFAIK, only on Vanaduke phase 3 and 5 people prefer to use guns and that's only to bypass having to remove up to 4-8 fire orbs before getting reliable sword uptime (and even then, I bet it's still faster to get rid of the orbs and use swords, people use guns just because it's much easier). The rest of the Citadel, swords still perform much better.

So yeah, the only thing making guns viable at all are boss mechanics designed to make sword very very unfavourable. Everywhere else, swords perform better, even on gun puppies. Only thing I'd actually prefer a gun over a sword on would be a gun puppy that I can't easily get to that's firing on me or the party.

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 07:08

Sirrocco

Legacy Username

The alchemer series is also

The alchemer series is also quite useful on slow-moving lumbers and zombies, and there are cases where you can abuse gaps against certain monsters.

...but that's beside the point. It seems entirely reasonable that IAS(gun) should reduce reload time as well. Among other things, it would actually give the gun-boosting armor some use at boosting guns. Certainly, there are arguments to be made about the comparative effectiveness of swords and guns, but it really doesn't seem like "IAS shouldn't affect reload, because guns keep you safe, so gunners shouldn't have nice things" is really one of them.

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 07:17

Metaknight

i just hate how i cant shield

i just hate how i cant shield immediately when i stop firing. distance doesnt stop projectiles :(

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 08:00

Techhead

Legacy Username

Don't forget...

Don't forget that swords can hit multiple targets, have larger knock back, can reliably knock down enemies, and move faster while charging. Guns have range on their side, but can generally only hit one target at a time, and have worse damage to boot. Not to mention, several enemies
In order for guns to really be on par with swords, they need to do comparable DPS against single targets. Currently, a sword in a gun-centric build still does more damage than a same-star gun in the same build.

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 08:27

Merethif

My opinion

Personally I find playing with guns much easier. I have a Striker with UV damage bonus vs slime that I needed to level up for upgrading to Vile Striker (for Jelly King of course). In order to do so I put away my Magnus and were doing T2 with only Striker and Volt Driver and that was much more difficult then going with Magnus and Volt Driver (my everyday set) - I had to use many health capsules to survive. Usually I don't use health capsules on T2 unless I lag or have a really bad day.

That's why I don't find handguns under-powered. Of course, as a gunner, I don't mind guns to be more powerful :-D but is it really needed?

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 15:58

Mettius

Legacy Username

So I was right? Guns as a

So I was right?

Guns as a whole are not underpowered, but IAS is. While swords are too powerful for my tastes, most guns are usable.

Wed, 04/27/2011 - 21:48

#10

FossaFerox

Legacy Username

Hazel, risk:reward serves as

Hazel, risk:reward serves as justification for the lower damage on guns to begin with. To have guns also scale worse with offensive bonuses widens this gap beyond any point of conceivable balance.

I.E. if it is "balanced" for someone in normal gear wielding a sword to do 10% more damage than someone with guns in the same normal gear, someone in Vog Cub should do 10% more than someone in Nameless, not 20%.

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 18:23

#11

tiwddles

Legacy Username

hazel talking out of ass

hazel talking out of ass again, fun

gonna bump my thread about gun balance

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 18:36

#12

Kawaii_Desu

Legacy Username

Tiwddles if you aren't going

Tiwddles if you aren't going to say anything constructive then don't post.
Anyhow, I do agree with the scaling of IAS.

It's horribly wrong to cater to one audience and ignore the rest.

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 18:48

#13

tiwddles

Legacy Username

Kawaii_Desu the person saying

Kawaii_Desu the person saying nothing constructive is you

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 20:19

#14

Archon

Lets not forget to compound

Lets not forget to compound the severely nerfedness of guns with the fact that half the enemies in the game actively dodge and shield against ranged attacks (they hardly ever do this to sword users...for some reason?) and this only gets worse by T3 when having a gun out actually makes you a liability to your team!

Never in any case in a game like this were team play is essential that using 1 of the 3 weapon types in the game should make you a liability and "nuisance" to your own party, the fact if you shoot at this or that it will dodge all over the place or shield making the life of your party sword users more difficult. Meaning if your a dedicated full gun user half the time you cant even help out your party as much as is needed.

One fix will be that when the gun family finally get an expansion update like the recent sword one, there should be an inclusion of several guns that either have fast projectiles, like the antigua or magnus family that even wolvers cant dodge "too" well, and maybe the inclusion of a shotgun type weapon with only slightly longer range then a sword, high damage output ad a little bit of a spread, I dunno why this game doesn't have anything like it.

And honesttly I can say as a full time dedicated gunslinger, anyone who doesn't believe guns are too nerfed simpily have never bothered to use a gun at all except maybe for their proto blaster/blaster they use for clearing out blocks, maybe they should swap out for equal star rated guns as their swords, hit T3 and see how much fun they have...most likely very little.

And you may ask "Why do you bother using guns if they are so bad?" 2 reasons

(a) I dont want to be like every other 9 out of 10 sword swinging average Joe.
(b) I have hopes for this game, and I do believe one day guns will be given the justice they deserve..someday =C

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Fix Attack Speed / Reloading