How does the Spur Hold up?
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 18:50
I like the look of the Spur and have the Spur and Arc Razor recipies. How does it stand up over all and does the lack of a 5* hurt it much?
Yes I know this is a pure opinion question.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 18:59
#2
I use Winmillion in Tier 3 -
I use Winmillion in Tier 3 - its nice for situations such as: A pack of 7 or 8 Wolvers with a Gremlin healer mixed in with the bunch of them and you need to single the healer out of the pack. It does a great job of keeping you in motion while attacking so that you can punch straight through a group of enemies without getting caught in the crossfire of enemy attacks and will slay whatever monster your attacking with it - so it is handy - I don't suggest getting it for its charge attack though, or for use in slaying large groups of enemies at a time.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 19:05
#3
Yes, dealing with large
Yes, dealing with large groups at once is what the troika or sealed sword lines are for. If you're facing a large number of dodging opponents though, the sword can keep them dodging while you focus on the one you actually want.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 20:51
#4
Spur's charge attack is
Spur's charge attack is garbage. I was really disappointed in it.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 20:54
#5
In actuality, the only
In actuality, the only benefit of using the Spur series over the Calibur/Sealed Sword lines is being a unique and functionally limited flower.
Signed, Someone who spent too much time using the spur series.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 21:03
#6
The secret to the Spur series
The secret to the Spur series is hidden to most people.
The lunge of the Spur is monstrous, wide, and fast, all at once. Damage is ordinary, push is ordinary, etc, but it is this massive lunge and sweep at a respectable speed that make it the survivor/lone wolf weapon of choice.
I realize lots of weapons have wide sweep and pushback and long lunges, but the Spur has it all, basically. Jack of all trades, but isn't just a 'bash enemies until they fall down' weapon.
The charge attack is garbage, but you'll never need it.
You can be surrounded by 6 enemies all attacking at once, and combo them all to death by rotating and attacking precisely and never actually take a single hit because each hit will push you out of attack range of enemies behind you, and push your targeted enemy just out of their attack range, unless you choose to attack again in which case the second swing will close the gap rapidly. And the third sweep pushes everything away and sets you free.
Doing a rotating attack like this precisely is a beautiful thing, because you can destroy groups easily, knock targets in all directions, and NEVER EVER TAKE DAMAGE. Also, you will be a peaceful island among the tiny jellies in a Jelly King battle while your allies get crushed.
Praying for an Arcmillion someday soon.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 21:07
#7
I like how the above post
I like how the above post describes the Sealed Sword series better than the Spur series, except Sealed Sword lacks all the goofy jiggling around like a seizure victim.
The difference between a "bash enemies until they fall down" weapon and a "you have to be good to use it half as well as other weapons perform" weapon(read: spur) is that one is good and one is not.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 21:07
#8
Well the spur line is about
Well the spur line is about as strong as the calibur line (minus inherent bonuses) with the mobility of the cutter line. The fact that its charged attack is so lame isn't unique either. The same can be said about a number of weapon types in this game. The antigua line for instance is pretty lame as far as charges go.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 21:11
#9
The weird jig the spur line
The weird jig the spur line makes you do is only a positive thing about a quarter of the time. You can put a romantic spin on it if you want, but in reality, you're moving around far more than necessary and pushing things around too much.
The point is, the Calibur line does better damage, has a very good charged attack with massive crowd control+soloing benefit, and has a very similar(albeit less wild) attack pattern. So, the only reason to use spur instead is if you're a romantic that wants to look more unique and provide extra heat for your friends.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 21:22
#10
A subtle hint that you'll die
A subtle hint that you'll die more with the spur line? I reject your statement, since you can properly guide your "weird jig" with auto-aim or proper mouse control as necessary. It's no more weird than the cutter line. And while Hangedman puts a wild spin on the movement as doing a violent dance of evasion and lethality, it's pretty true that you can be in the midst of a throng of enemies and slash your way to freedom. The calibur line is really the only one that can't make that claim unless you're fully charged in that throng.
Tue, 04/26/2011 - 21:36
#11
Actually, you can get out of
Actually, you can get out of a throng of enemies just fine with a single shield bounce, so whether or not a weapon can do it is irrelevant.
But, for the sake of relevance, I'll point out that once you get the first swing off of a combo(which should always be possible regardless of the throng unless it's something you'll die in no matter what), the calibur line can push its way out just fine. I do it quite regularly when soloing Royal Jelly using my Levi, so I'm at least decently sure it's possible.
Group Killing: Sealed Swords, or Calibur Charged Attack(which can oneshot several enemies at once if you back them into a corner/against a wall)
Single/Dual Target Killing: Calibur or Sealed Sword charged attacks(Divine Avenger's is decent at groups too, I guess!)
Spur series: Repels enemies worse than a shield bounce and the sealed swords, does less damage than every other sword family that goes to 4-star, has no charge attack as far as functionality is concerned.
As for the little jig, it's still a lot of extra movement for no real reason, and honestly, bounding all the way across a room during a combo just turns into an annoyance unless you've got everything cornered, which, while an ideal situation, is not the general one(unless you waste massive amounts of time rounding things up just to kill them in a corner, lol).
So, to summarize: The Winmillion is a fine and dandy weapon, and it requires a different playstyle. However, it's functionally worse in every single way than other swords of its level, and is tragically wounded by the lack of a 5-star form. But, even if it had one, I doubt it would be any better off unless they gave it a charge attack that wasn't horrid.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 08:13
#12
I'm not saying it's perfect,
I'm not saying it's perfect, not at all. But it's remarkably effective.
I would like to see it rebalanced slightly to be on par with the other weapons. Also, Arcmillion.
Perhaps my language is a bit flowery, but I still sail calmly on through crowds while people flail ineffectually about trying to reach their enemies. Have a very good track record of survival by virtue of not being in the way of every attack.
And I actually enjoy using it more than the other swords. Most of them require little to no thought or even aim. But you can roll around and have tons of fun with the Spur series, picking targets at will and closing the gap instantly to hit them.
Personal preference, I guess. But they're still quite good and fun to use.
EDIT: I would like to see actually a two-tier 5* for the Spur set: one with shots like the Winmillion and one without. That, along with a slight buff would make the weapon a real contender.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 08:24
#13
The best sword is the one you do best with.
My bomb is my primary weapon, but I carry a sword to finish off the last few bomb-damaged enemies after blowing up everything in the room a few times. Bombs are great in a crowd, because they do a lot of damage to a lot of enemies at once, but they're not ideal for killing 1-2 stragglers. I prefer the spur series because, as a bomber, I don't get to shield so I'm used to a hit-and-run approach to attacking. Get close, drop or slash, dodge, run around a little, repeat. A fast sword is ideal for landing a stronger hit on a straggler while continuing the movement needed to charge up my next bomb without getting hit. Standing still = dead bomber, so I need sword that makes me move and the spur line is perfect for my style of play. The cutter was nice while I used it, but the relative lack of knockback and lower amount of dancing around actually made it more difficult to play with a bomber's need for constant movement.
Basically, there is no single "best sword behavior" as Hazel implies. What works best for you will depend upon how you like to play. Sure, I could do more damage per swing with a Faust, but I'd also find it tougher to get circling again to charge my next bomb, so it's not the best sword for me. Someone whose primary weapon is a sword may prefer a more controlled swing, but if you're a gunner or bomber looking to occasionally run in, slash, and then get back to the perimeter, you can't beat the Spur line.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 09:42
#14
As someone who started the
As someone who started the game using spur, and used winmillion quite a bit...
The spur line sucks. It is cool as all get out, but it sucks. I wouldn't waste my time, unless you want it just because you *like* it. If you want a good sword walk away now.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 10:23
#15
Honestly I don't see the loss
Honestly I don't see the loss for a 5 star recipe, besides the possibility of being more useful. Admittedly a 4 star item will be inferior to a 5 star item in most cases for damage, and for that I'd agree the calibur series is better, but damage wise both hits on my winmillion with each swing match up with my faust's first swing (barring weakness to shadow). So I don't know about "does less damage than every other sword family that goes to 4-star". Seems to be doing just fine when I use it. I'll definitely grant that its charge attack sucks though.
My bottom line is the spur line is useful, and can have its role as a primary weapon, but it has no special distinctions that make it worth using over bonus damage from damage types or special effects like poison that can be obtained through most other swords. If you're focusing on another weapon type (like a couple of guns and have an extra weapon slot) then this makes an excellent backup weapon.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 11:11
#16
Basically, there is no single
Basically, there is no single "best sword behavior" as Hazel implies.
Yes there is. Optimal is optimal. Personal preference has no influence on what is optimal.
We pointed out a long time ago that it's a fine sword to use if you're so attached to it that you're okay with being mediocre.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 11:45
#17
Hazel: "We pointed out a long
Hazel: "We pointed out a long time ago that it's a fine sword to use if you're so attached to it that you're okay with being mediocre."
Can't have that in a hardcore game like Spiral Knights!
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 12:03
#18
Don't get the Avenger and
Don't get the Avenger and Faust, unless you want enemies to be less challenging and you to feel like a noob. Get the Spur series! Winmillion is where its at! Many people doesn't like it, because they don't know the secrets of wielding such power! You can become the ultimate weapon if you combine your winmillion with a silver six (good combo)!
I still wish the devs could make a 5* version of the winmillion. I won't pay real money for this game until there is a 5* version of the winmillion. For me, what I think the 5* winmillion sword should looks like is:
- Red primary color, gold secondary color + 3 spinning circle blades
- When swinging the weapon, it bursts 2 projectiles instead of one.
- The special move could be like a tornado, therefore having a surrounding attack enemies who gets close and three large projectiles fly forward where the player is facing.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 12:21
#19
Optimal is not optimal in all
Optimal is not optimal in all situations. The Ash of Agni is the optimal bomb if you're in an arena full of fire-weak creatures, but it's pretty miserable if you're up against oilers. The Vog Cub Coat is optimal if you're slashing a Red Rover with your sword, but it's not the best thing to have if you're shooting a zombie with your gun. A cryo driver is great for killing retrodes, but it won't do much good against wolvers.
My play style lends itself to quicker swords than either the Avenger or the Faust. I like to keep moving, so the Winmillion helps me do what I want to do. I also don't have the fastest reflexes, so I need a sword whose speed makes up for my lack thereof. Maybe my weapon choice isn't optimal for killing a single creature with as few hits as possible, but it is optimal for circling an arena dropping bombs and smacking the occasional straggler back into my blast radius.
Like I said, there is no one optimal play style for this entire game. Different areas will require different strategies and people will play differently because they're better at different things or just because they don't want to do the same hack-and-slash and most others. If you're unsure how you want to play, you'll have more fun trying a range of different weapons and choosing for yourself rather than listening to people like Hazel who would pigeonhole us all into a single set of gear.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 12:52
#20
Mediocre
In order to validate mediocre implies that EVERY non UV sword is mediocre compared to a 5 star maximum UV attack, speed, charge boost, etc. In which case, why bother even having a slower or less damage worthy non UV sword?
I can see where being picky about always having the best when you primarily solo and need to dispatch things ASAP to make farming runs more profitable in a timely manner. This concept makes sense if you are a mass product crafter.
Then there is the EPEEN factor of doing the most damage within a group setting. Nothing wrong with being top dog.
There is also a concept of dynamically balancing gear, combat class, hate control and strategies within changing situations and floor content. If someone becomes too dependent on being overpowered in a group setting it's harder to balance hate control with other members of a team. In team dynamics, often times restraint becomes more important than the Leeroy Jenkins approach--unless you are willing to share your freshly nuked chicken with the rest of the team.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 13:08
#21
As someone who use the spur
As someone who use the spur series from 2* to 4* quite a bit i'll chime in as well and say it sucks.
1. Yeah the movement part is awesome...UNTIL you realize most of the arenas are filled with environmental hazards and your sword will fling you into them all the damn time.
2. Yeah making some enemies enter dodge lock is awesome...UNTIL you see the t3 wolvers that teleport everywhere now
3. Yeah you don't need the charge anyway because the auto-attack is awesome...UNTIL you realize the calibur does basically the same damage and has a good charge attack.
I have to say even if 2 and 3 aren't annoying for you, 1 will actively hinder your team and make it perform worse because you're either doing nothing (hey i can fling myself into those spikes, it would be stupid) or jumping around in hazards everywhere losing health for no reason.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 13:31
#22
Spur series
Is not for the weak of heart. It takes alot more skill and restraint to learn when and how to use it best. I like it for fun time silliness in open arenas settings. Time them lumber tree swing threshold, swish swish them wolvers into the lumber's bash path while flinging my character out of the lumber's bash. In this instance, I am having too much fun using Winmillion like a matador cape to entice the lumbers to bash the wolvers I just flung into their paths.
In more focused operations, I prefer Calibur series as a multi-purpose business blade.
Fun times or business? Need more weapon slots to do both!
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 13:42
#23
Avoiding environmental
- Avoiding environmental hazards is easy if you step back before attacking or aim to the side. Or just... Don't attack that target.
- The teleporting wolvers only happen within the normal reach of the winmillion, with a minimum range of whatever you can slash before the shot comes out. Hacking and slashing a wolver with a winmillion is the same as hacking and slashing with a calibur, except you don't move as much.
- I won't disagree with the calibur charge attack being awesome, but the mobility is lacking by comparison. If you can use the mobility, there is no comparison
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 14:22
#24
Spur is terrible, but not
Spur is terrible, but not because you'll dash into spikes. You should know how to change directions during a combo.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 15:13
#25
1. Avoiding environmental
1. Avoiding environmental hazards with the spur series means you do attack-block routines and thus fofeit any mobility advantage you have. Not to mention fighting in the danger rooms, around oilers, round 3 arena etc. Not attacking at all means you're not really contributing, i fail to see how that's good.
2.The main advantage of the spur series is that you have such a big dash, having to go extremely close to the target before swinging negates a large art of the winmillion's pros. At least you can still flip switches without a ranged weapon! :P
I also don't really see the point in comparing the performance vs easy to kill enemies like lumbers (or slimes for that matter). Vs most of the constructs (excuding lumbers) it's pretty much useless, fiends are wolvers-light so it might have some merit, goblins become extremely annoying around winmillion again (though i'll give it the merit of of catching the bomb throwing ones easily) and undead are slow to kill (kats dodge the bolts due to how they move, undead force you into an attack-block pattern usually if you don't have IAS)
Onmy: Compare spur's attack 1 with calibur's or even "worse", troika's and you'll notice the huge difference, especially in danger rooms.
Wed, 04/27/2011 - 15:51
#26
No, avoiding environmental
- No, avoiding environmental hazards means not attacking at the hazards in the first place. Fight parallel to the edges or at an angle that leads you away from the edge, or not at all. With the mobility and knock back you can usually take a few steps to the side and then usher the intended target away from such hazards in an arena setting. As for avoiding oilers, which I assume are on fire? Why would someone use fire on them in the first place? You do realize you can just not kill all the enemies from the last wave of an arena match and stop the overlap of impossible enemies (fire puppies and oilers) right?
- Your ranged attack actually does little damage with the winmillion, I won't deny it. But with the forward mobility you can be a fair distance away outside of the range of most other swords and dash into range and to hit your target with a single click. This doesn't remove the pro of the sword, you're using it as it's intended, as a melee weapon. The minor ranged aspect is a bonus to a melee weapon's reach.
The spur line's mobility allows for you catch up with the faster enemies (such as the kats) quickly when they move around. The winmillion's ranged attack only triggers dodging on enemies that you aren't actually slashing, so that makes it better because it's controlling the battle field (dodging enemies don't attack). You're right though that against a slower opponent the spur line is less useful in favour of something that can dole out a major hit (like the troika) with little issue. But even against slow opponents like retrodes or undead, you can use that mobility to dance around them to attack from different angles and push them out of a group for your party. You can also use this dancing to move around trojans and hit them from behind (blocking when they do charge ups, of course).
The spur, arc razor, and later winmillion hold up quite well. They are comparable to the cutters in terms of mobility, but have damage and speed more in line with the caliburs. The winmillion features short range shots on attack as well which helps out a little in the damage department, a combined shot/slash will do about the same damage as my faust does (both 4 star). But an oft complained about feature is that the winmillion's shots will make dodgers, well, dodge. Painful if you're "at range" and attempt to hit wolvers in tier 3 (who then teleport, rather than shifting sideways). Dodgers only dodge habitually if you're out of melee range though, so if you're attacking a particular target in melee (and can hit them with the slash), they won't freak out and dodge your shots.
It's a good utility weapon, and is certainly tier 3 capable, but it has nothing to distinguish itself over another weapon which offers bonus damage versus undead (Cold Iron Vanquisher) or elemental/shadow damage (avenger/faust) for example.