Spiral Knights - A solution for gaming complacency (i.e. people only wanting to do FSC/RJ runs)

A solution for gaming complacency (i.e. people only wanting to do FSC/RJ runs)

33 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:27

Maharito

Three Rings has fleshed out an expansive world where the levels are always changing and even the same-named level could be different the next time you see it. ...Or so it plays out for those newer players who have not sought out ways to be profitable.

A goal-minded player eventually figures out where the good loot is at and goes there often. Over time, they may end up going there to the exclusion of any other Clockworks runs, or doing them only from the mission menu. As it turns out, the best runs for loot are boss runs--runs which feature levels that are always the same. This is complacency on top of complacency: In a game where opportunities are randomized over time to create a healthy and interesting diversity, people choose the fixed option AND are inordinately rewarded for it!

I don't think 'the fixed option' necessarily needs to to go away. However, I think Three Rings made a near-fatal design flaw by making that singularly appealing to pretty much every 'serious' player. Why do I get nearly twice the loot from Firestorm Citadel when I gradually find it less interesting and less challenging? Sure, it is difficult at first. But whole guilds have built themselves around mastering this domain (and the same goes for the Royal Jelly Palace), as would be expected in any game with a healthy gaming atmosphere. So let them master their domains.

I consider the Shadow Lairs as a positive example of what I'm getting at (excepting the touchy 'real life money required one way or another' issue): There is great challenge, but there is not really a profit to be made in the traditional sense. You are there for the experience and the unique rewards at the end. Nowhere is this more poignant than when you find yourself locked in battle AFTER having defeated the superboss... Even if the Shadow Lair materials are tradable, nobody's going to get their fancy armor without either completing even one of these nightmares or paying through the nose.

This is how it should be for all the boss lairs: Come for the excitement, stay for the tokens if you wish. There should be no compulsion to replay them ad infinitum for profit. You earn your goodies by playing lairs and getting good at them, but it doesn't extend to pure crowns in any typical scenario. In other words, boss lairs should be worth no more in crowns than other runs of the same depths. Actually, I think there is a pretty strong argument that they should be worth slightly fewer crowns:

Fixed challenges can be mastered and thus done more quickly over time. Crowns per hour is higher if this isn't changed. (For this reason, all fixed missions of constant availability should be worth less than equivalent Clockworks depths.)
Fixed challenges are not random so they are inherently easier in the long run, assuming they are not truly unfair (i.e. mandatory total party kills or other costly enterprises). This even extends to brutal always-available missions like The Gauntlet. Loot per unit of spent energy is higher in an otherwise fair scenario because few experienced people die on boss runs.
This makes boss-specific loot, particularly for first-timers, of unique value. OOO already makes boss-specific loot bind-on-acquire (and unbind costs generally aren't worth it); it seems they already understand the loot should have unique personal value.

Whether by buff or by nerf, leveling out boss lairs will restore Spiral Knights to the near-ideal form I was familiar with right when it was released:

People value random expeditions more--the Clockworks premise is valued once more!
As goal-minded recipe-hoarders see every reason to stock up in the traditional fashion, trading supply is increased; as intrepid explorers see every reason to hunt for their own, trading demand is decreased. All of this ends up obviating the need for recipes in missions that sell them; they could offer fewer/pricier recipes or none at all without being unfair to the unlucky. Crafting becomes interesting once more!
There would be more of a vested interest in how the Clockworks is formed. Some monsters are easier than others, depending not only on player skills but their equipment as well--particularly important to a mid-level knight who can only afford one good set of armor and weapons. Spiral Knights aren't just using the rocks to pad their coffers anymore!
This could in turn affect material availability: If nobody wants to fight fiends and no fiend gates ever get made, people will have to go more out of their way for their Mugs of Misery. So players have a tougher mineral-hunting decision to make. This would be particularly interesting if guilds could also reward their members for depositing minerals of certain colors... Unique Variant customization has all but killed surplus equipment crafting, except for those making the risky gamble for a great cheap multi-UV; so separate/more drastic material sinks are needed. But otherwise, this could lead to material prices being interesting again.

I could go on all day, but let me summarize: I firmly believe that equalizing the crown value of boss lairs with other equivalent Clockworks depths, or even making them worth a little fewer crowns than the Clockworks, would really help bring this game back to its roots and out of its current state of gaming complacency.

Extension: Where do you think this game is headed gameplay-wise if this DOESN'T happen? People only waiting for new bosses? The prestige danger missions looked pretty cool, but that is still trading one complacency for another. Those missions work best when they are valuable but limited in availability--and I don't think they will be limited in the long run. Doesn't anyone else want to get excited about the next gate that opens up? I still do top-to-bottom runs of every one.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:44

The-Rawrcake

So basically, those missions

So basically, those missions that cost 20 energy should get their crown payout buffed to be roughly equal like this:

Doing a 20 elevator energy mission 5 times gives you about 15k crowns

Doing a 50 elevator mission (KoA) 2 times gives you about 15k crowns or possibly even less so that boss lairs are more focused on the tokens

So like that? Sorry if I comprehended it wrong.

Also, +1 for the idea of making Arcade payouts less ridiculous.

+1 because you believe this game is being dumbed down and no longer the Cradle "always changing" in the Arcade as this game was falsely advertised.

"4.This could in turn affect material availability"

This seems as if it would be how it works now how it is especially, but it isn't really. this is because how ridiculously common materials are, and how some of them show up where they shouldn't.

I would like it that fiend materials are more profitable, that sounds extremely fun to make it more complex, but that would involve changes specifically based on materials I believe.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:46

Keelan

I think this should go in

I think this should go in Suggestions for the "This is how it should be for all the boss lairs:" phrase you put in there, but I definitely wish to see something like this happen.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:47

Traevelliath

I'm still getting 8k for an RT arcade run... just sayin...

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:49

Maharito

If the thread gets moved, so

If the thread gets moved, so be it. To me, it seemed more interesting as a discussion topic because this is a pretty drastic change to make that would require more than one developer to do right. I don't know if that falls into the scope of "suggestions."

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:01

Pauling

This really belongs in the

This really belongs in the suggestions forum, but...

Truth be told, you're right: boss missions pay out a lot more than normal missions, but more importantly, they pay out more per unit of energy. In a way that's good, because the levels are each longer and contain more enemies. But to balance out the longer experience, charging slightly more per level than a normal clockworks mission would be fair.

There would be a lot of player whining about this at first, but it might be balanced by other adjustments at the same time. For example, they could fix the ridiculous triple-charging system of shadow lairs- an adventure that costs thousands of energy for a key, plus elevator costs to the terminal and for the mission, and then rewards you with the chance to spend a minimum of 1200-1450 energy at the end (800 for the item, plus 400-650 energy for the precursor items). If you pay for the mission up front, charging players for elevators there is just nickel-and-diming....

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:56

The-Rawrcake

@Traev You spent 80 energy in

@Traev

You spent 80 energy in total doing that

Someone doing that in the missions will spend 30 and be able to do that three times instead of once off of mist.

Now, if we aren't talking mist here, then you will be able to run that mission version much quicker.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 11:57

Maharito

On the Shadow Key note:

Just as an aside: If you took out the alchemy energy cost and the within-lair elevator cost of Shadow Lairs, perhaps the true cost would make more sense. But then, I would also expect to pay several thousand CE for a key--otherwise you're really diminished the value of those elite rewards.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:00

Sgtbrown

I like my Hall of Heroes, but

I like my Hall of Heroes, but I 100% agree with this.

In order to do all of this, we need to get rid of the missions -but not ALL of the missions. The missions we should still have should be the Rescue Camp ones, the "tutorial" ones, the ones where you talk to somebody, and "maybe" the Expansion Missions.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:01

Il-Ladro

Agreed

I agree with most of what you say, I already proposed similiar evidence in other threads regarding CE prices.

My propose still is: not allowing to replay the boss missions or making them just a request to defeat said boss in the clockworks.

I think another add-on to boss lairs may be to make them not always the same too, with different elevator paths, just like the concrete jungle levels, they have four levels in two floors and the third and final is always the same (at least in tier3, the one with the dragon-like head pic on the map).

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:03

#10

Soarel

YES

A crowd of Chromalisks cheers in approval.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:18

#11

Thich

I prefer the Clockworks too,

I prefer the Clockworks too, but it amuses me that everyone's answer is to get rid of missions, or to nerf FSC payouts. "I don't like it, let's get rid of it! No one should have access to these."

The problem is that the Clockworks (Arcade) isn't attractive to people at the moment. The solution is to make the Arcade more attractive to players, not get rid of something just because you don't like it.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:20

#12

The-Rawrcake

wouldn't that be what this

wouldn't that be what this suggestion is? Making payouts similar instead of just scrapping missions?

+1 to it btw

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:20

#13

Juances

How can the arcade be more attractive if farmable missions are already perfect.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:22

#14

The-Rawrcake

Some people don't play for

Some people don't play for farming some play for fun, and payouts being less ridiculous would help us not suffer for having fun

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:22

#15

Lukehandkooler

+1 Ahh I see many calling for

Ahh I see many calling for ye' good ole' suggestion forum, where good suggestions go to die.

~Luke

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:50

#16

Maharito

Reply to Sgtbrown, Il-Ladro, Thich, Juances

Hey, I think the missions should serve a purpose.

I stepped away from the game for a long time, but I had already mostly mastered it by that point (though I was just short of making a 5* equip). When I came back, I saw all these missions and got excited. Besides having to unlock Tier 3, though, they just seemed like a bunch of hoops to jump through. On the other hand, it provides controlled practice for new to intermediate players and a bit of a skill gate for advanced players (especially in mission 9-2). Being able to replay the same mission allows you to practice and get better at it. This is important for a lot of people in how they learn. You also get the side benefit of being able to see how skilled/advanced other people are (not perfectly accurate, but pretty good) all the way up to 'I've been here for a while and I really know the ropes' Vanguard rank.

As for replayability...well...this gets rather sticky, doesn't it? Shouldn't you be able to join a friend who's doing an earlier mission? Isn't that a typical social aspect of MMO gaming? And if you allow that, aren't all missions replayable by proxy no matter what you do? My approach is to say all default-available missions shouldn't be valuable crown-wise but provide their own unique benefits (each does have one-time rewards). You can still have your 'ooh shiny' missions; but they will be limited in availability by only showing up maybe one day a week in Prestige Missions. Perhaps these missions will also be limited in the number of plays--perhaps two to five would work (and the first play must be at the start).

We're talking about making the game more worthwhile to explore as a whole...so yes, the Clockworks themselves have to be improved. The two-random-floor-followed-by-final-challenge motif is genuinely exciting (the Toxilargo is probably my favorite enemy!). Nevermind that the levels themselves are too short--this motif should be expanded upon.

EDIT: To Juances: I've played games before where farming was what it was all about. I was hooked on one called Maple Story for quite some time. Really, Spiral Knights has the potential to be so much more... And at no point would I say challenge, even of the repetitive kind, shouldn't be rewarded with HEAT. There will always be a place for the grind.

Tue, 06/19/2012 - 14:44

#17

Zeddy

I miss the days of discussing gate maps and getting on the gate with most arenas.

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 19:54

#18

Maharito

Finally decided to move this

Finally decided to move this over to Suggestions, 'where good suggestions go to die.' Since this was positively received in GD, I think it deserves a bump and a prayer that a dev will see it!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 02:22

#19

Fire-Steven

Approves.

As myself is a goal-minded player, I DO wish to do something really other else than boss lairs, but then I can't really allow myself to waste time while we can farm and get much more, so I guess either boost in Clockwork payout or nerf in boss lairs would be necessary.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 02:22

#20

Fire-Steven

Approves.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 03:57

#21

Deadly-Bagel

Haha Maha, you're one to

Haha Maha, you're one to talk, being in exactly such a guild xD

I somewhat agree with you but think you're going about it wrong. Crowns are quite hard to come by outside FSC which isn't quite fair, it puts people like us who can solo or duo FSC with ease in a position to earn twice as many crowns using ME than poor old Billy who's just hit t3.

Outside of FSC crowns and heat are stupidly hard to get, and at most return 1000cr per floor (compared to nearly twice that for FSC). It's not that I've lost interest in the clockworks, it's that it's literally not feasible for me to do them to achieve my goals.

So let's tweak your suggestions somewhat. Instead of just nerfing the crowns in FSC (since this would put everyone back to square 1, where to get cr?) I suggest balancing FSC and t3 clockworks to meet in the middle somewhere. FSC should undoubtedly return a few more cr since the levels are so much longer and a the choice of a tradeoff between less cr less time / more cr more time should certainly be a feature, but only netting like an extra 1k total for an extra twenty minutes or whatever. Either that or make it actually difficult again.

Secondly, regarding materials. I used to earn LOADS selling random shards and materials before zombies couldn't track, but the only valued items now are from beasts and fiends. The drop rate of some materials (Iron Gear, Light Shard, etc) FAR outstrip any actual uses for them and so they're absolutely worthless since every player in existence has enough to craft his or her own armoury by the time they need any. Such materials need to be included in more recipes, and all materials for 4* and 5* gear should be needed in much larger quantities.

I don't think this will drastically affect the price of too many materials but this raises another dilemma - why the HELL am I expected to pay 400cr to MAYBE sell an item for 50cr???? The deposit for selling equipment is fine, but makes it too high risk to sell materials. Simply force a Buy Now price and charge a percentage on that based on how long the auction lasts. I don't understand why you'd list any materials without a buy now price anyway.

Lastly, I can solo FSC and any level in the clockworks (bar Fiends which are EVIL) without dying. Not Vana but his rewards are purely the tokens so meh. My point being, what do I have to work for but better gear to do what I can already do, but faster? Sure I could get a fiend set but there's currently zilch point in doing fiend levels so I'm not wasting $10 of energy crafting equipment to combat them. We need another tier or zone, like the Shadow Lair but without the $5 entry fee. Something vastly more difficult that even the absolute best players with Shadow Lair Armour and four weapons each with 3 MAX UVs need to get a party together to complete. Maybe another eight floors progressing exponentially in difficulty.

The rewards I guess should be aesthetic, maybe an aura bound to the character to signify their achievement and a random unbound accessory that can only be obtained by doing these levels. Obviously cr as well (if you need heat you shouldn't be doing it!) but on par, maybe slightly higher than normal clockworks and not worth the additional effort.

If anyone mentions that we need to pay extra for this they need to be shot - I will remind you that nearly every piece of equipment is 1,560 energy to craft, requiring a BARE MINIMUM of 1,100 >>PREMIUM<< energy to craft. So to craft a helmet, armour, shield, four weapons, and two trinkets, you need a total of 11,900 (trinkets generally start at 4*) premium energy. Even if you're buying with cr, you're making incentive to buy CE which counts.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 07:01

#22

Maharito

Reply to Deadly-Bagel

Ahoy, fellow guildie.

I appreciate the effort put into your argument, but there is a bit of a snag. Until the snag is resolved, the complacency will ever remain.

I think everyone agrees enemy challenge and time to complete should factor into the value of a given level. However, there are two ways to look at any tradable value as well: earnings per unit time (relevant to elevator pass users and others who don't have a lot of time to play their daily mist), and earnings per unit energy (relevant to everyone else). Giving longer levels more tradable value makes sense in the first group, but it gives people in the second group an excuse to only seek out longer levels (probably not good game design). Giving harder levels more tradable value makes for a good gaming experience for both groups, but the trick there lies in what a 'harder' level really is.

I argue that any immediately accessible fixed level can be mastered and is thus should be treated as 'not the hardest' strictly in terms of tradable value. This actually includes boss lairs in the Clockworks, which are only moderately less accessible and each lair is always present. This game should reward the level diversity it advertises (one of a few features that really elevates it above other MMOs!). If Clockworks levels all feel easier/more boring than guaranteed-boring-over-time fixed boss levels, some or most of them should be made harder.

The bosses should be about the untradable token loot. If the number of crowns is not commensurate for the effort, then at least make the heat so. Otherwise, people by and large will continue replaying the same few levels.

I don't know how many other ways I can say it--as long as boss lairs are non-random, boss lairs as cash cows has GOT to go!

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 07:56

#23

Mczeno

No.

So if I do Rabid Snarbolax, then I would only get one 50 coin crowns? No. Just. No.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 08:10

#24

Realnight

Another option is to make the

Another option is to make the elevator costs variable. Longer levels almost always pay more by their nature of being longer - so make longer levels cost more mist.

For example we could make FSC levels cost 15E per level and regular T3 levels cost only 8E - This would actually balance the ME to Time to Payout ratio easier than simply nerving boss missions.

Stretching this up to T2 and T1 it would also make it easier for newer players because gates would cost less up there.

(And instead of Shadow keys we could make shadow lair gates cost 50E per gate. hmmm...)

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 11:46

#25

Maharito

Shadow Lairs are a bit messed

Shadow Lairs are a bit messed up as they are... One could potentially get all their elite equipment crafted after one Shadow Lair run without paying anything too exorbitant. The aforementioned 'triple cost' issue is a bit misleading since people who replay the Shadow Lairs for fun only pay a double cost and then get a good portion of that cost recompensated in the elite material.

The idea of Shadow Keys having a substantial cost is unusual but I'm not trying to revolutionize that. It was a bold move to limit content availability, but the other side of that is that actually doing a run is pretty special and you really don't want to fail it despite maybe never having seen it before. Your first Shadow Lair run is so epic, and everything is on the line! (I can't wait to try the harder SL runs myself.)

I suggested to that 'triple cost' comment that perhaps the only cost should be the Shadow Key itself and that cost should increase considerably. I didn't really care about that brainstorm either way; but upon further thought, this would both increase the value of the elite materials (thus making getting all your elite sets right away a bit less trivial) and reduce the amount of casual SL runs. This is a good thing, in my opinion, because the lairs are supposed to be a special challenge/reward for which one saves up (otherwise they wouldn't have invented the concept of a Shadow Key!). A rather obvious accompanying idea would be to limit the alchemy machine function to which SLs you have completed--to be honest, I'm shocked this wasn't done from the very start.

Mczeno--Shadow Lair runs are already not considered profitable overall, but you get quite a lot of crowns compared to other runs of similar depths. This doesn't need to be changed.

=====

All of this is separate from the main point of the thread, though.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 08:03

#26

Deadly-Bagel

Giving longer levels more

Giving longer levels more tradable value makes sense [for elevator pass users], but it gives an excuse [for ME users to] only seek out longer levels - This is somewhat the idea. Players who have loads of time on their hands would obviously go for the longer levels with better rewards, but I value my hours in the afternoon and so would go for the shorter levels for better crowns per hour. Keep in mind it wouldn't be double the return for a few extra minutes, it would make you work for a mild reward. 1k / 20mins is trivial enough, no?

I argue that any immediately accessible fixed level can be mastered and is thus should be treated as 'not the hardest'...This game should reward the level diversity it advertises. If Clockworks levels all feel easier/more boring than guaranteed-boring-over-time fixed boss levels, some or most of them should be made harder. - Careful not to go too far - we still need an 'easy' mode for new players. Perhaps the first half of t3 could be replaced in loot/difficulty with what is now the second half (let's face it, currently pre-terminal t3 is useless to everyone) and post-terminal could be made much harder. Thus newly 4* players could do the first half and turn around at the terminal while still netting some decent heat and cr. It IS t3, I'd expect it to be better than t2.

I don't know how many other ways I can say it--as long as boss lairs are non-random, boss lairs as cash cows has GOT to go! - Well I think the only real "cash cow" is FSC. RJ gives about 1k/10ce which is around many other post-terminal Clockworks levels, haven't done Roarmy in awhile but it's probably similar.

How about this as an addition to my selection - the missions are the problem yes? You can do FSC twice on ME, with 20 leftover. Let's say you also have to do the pre-terminal clockworks of the specified gate first, so rather than giving you just the FSC "mission" it drops you at Emberlight in the FSC gate. The criteria could be something like 'turn in one Recon Module - FSC' or whatever.

EDIT: A note about Shadow Lairs, while they're nicely difficult and give decent rewards (awesome looking but otherwise average sets), I dislike that what makes them 'special' is that they cost $5 per run. I mean, for 1800ce it's not like you're doing it for the drops is it? How about, nerf the cr/heat/drops to bugger all and bin the shadow keys. That way Shadow Lairs are only worth doing if you actually finish them, and even then you get, what, a bit of a set piece? Majoritively it wouldn't be feasible to attempt them unless you actually wanted a SL set piece which would keep runs infrequent and 'special'.

Even those with elevator passes would be hard pressed to farm them anyway since you usually end up needing to revive. If not, then well, what else is there to do anyway? If you can solo a Shadow Lair you've kind of finished the game.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 07:58

#27

Juances

"but I value my hours in the afternoon and so would go for the shorter levels for better crowns per"

Doing a longer level wich gives many crowns and leaves you with some extra mist you can spend in crafting something to resell still sounds mroe profiting than wasting everything on small levels. Even more interesting with the random chance to craft an UV and win the lottery.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 07:58

#28

Juances

"but I value my hours in the afternoon and so would go for the shorter levels for better crowns per"

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 08:10

#29

Deadly-Bagel

The last level of a run is

The last level of a run is always the most profitable, so doing the first half of something should and does net only about 1/3 of the total rewards. As such it is not practical to cut out the most profitable floor of your run to spend some ME on crafting, what exactly? Frost bomb for 200cr/10me? Doesn't sound very profitable.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 11:41

#30

Xylka-Mkii

Surprised i didnt read this

Surprised i didnt read this before!

I agree though, only the most entertaining, and challenging levels should be the most profitable. FSC and RJP shouldn't be the only ways to get a decent amount of CR from the game. Nerf FSC to 4000cr payout for sure, and I'll be happy.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 15:02

#31

Alpis

How about a big reward for

How about a big reward for playing the arcade from surface to core in one run. Did you do that run without dying, here's another bonus. etc.

Tue, 06/26/2012 - 02:20

#32

Maharito

I like the direction of your

I like the direction of your thinking, Alpis... Man, I'm too tired to give a proper thought right now. Why are all crowns dropped from enemies? Why don't you get them from objectives and challenges? 'Destroy every monster possible,' 'Open every prize box possible,' etc. Rewarding the quality of a play seems worthwhile.

Tue, 06/26/2012 - 07:19

#33

Tive

Time flys by

The opening post sounds like from a year ago. No really.

I wish they made the stratum creation new and exciting.

And break up with the fixed pattern boss stages to open up elemental infused semi unique stages with certain key areas that stay the same (aside from element) but a rich variety of random interconnection possibilities between those. Just a new spin to the old formula.

And/Or add unique places to the generally random stages. Something memorable. Like a huge useless spring or fireplace or a transparent floor or whatever. To improve on the mood of particular areas/elements. And just perhaps there's gonna be lots of enemies/crowns to be had there.

And random desirable random miniboss stages. (random as in, fixed after strata creation)

So spiral knights all over the place have been building strata for a year, perhaps that changed something in the clockworks? perhaps they got better at it?

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A solution for gaming complacency (i.e. people only wanting to do FSC/RJ runs)