Spiral Knights - Striker Class doesn't favor bombers? :I

Striker Class doesn't favor bombers? :I

28 replies [Last post]

Thu, 06/21/2012 - 23:46

Lizzi

The Striker Class in Lockdown has a VH CTR penalty on bombs... which is something that has eluded me for the longest time. Why penalize bomb CTR so much? I don't see how having neutral bomb CTR on the class would overpower bombers, considering you can't charge a bomb and boost at the same time. The lack of mobility that bombers have by choosing to be Recon Bombers or Guardian Bombers can really be frustrating when dealing with striker gunners or swordies. I know, you can work around this by getting CTR trinkets and a full Mad Bomber/Volcanic Set, but what would other strikers have that the ideal bomber striker doesn't have room for now? Heart trinkets.

So, my concern on this really boils down to these questions.

Why does bomb CTR get penalized so heavily? Would it be fair to make the VH penalty into a medium penalty, or just remove it altogether?
If the VH penalty were to remain, would it be fair to add a medium bomb damage bonus, so that a typical bomber striker can achieve Max CTR and Max Damage?

And that's pretty much it... I'm open to ideas, but I'm just a bit curious (and frustrated) as to why this giant wall exists that prevents bombers from playing well as a striker. I'll be alright just staying as a recon bomber if no changes are made, but.... it's always going to be difficult competing with gunner or sword strikers.

~ Lizzi

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 03:29

Spaghetiman

When it didn't have the penalty sword strikers would bring bombs like the voltaic tempest and that was kinda unfair.

~Spag

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 10:21

Lizzi

Oh, it was added later? Never

Oh, it was added later? Never knew that...

Maybe they could work some way so that haze bombs are penalized and damage bombs aren't?

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 11:06

Juances

Strker favors swords
Recon favors bombs and guns

I do agree negative VH is exxaggerated, but still fits.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 11:10

Spaghetiman

I think it was always on the live server but when it was first open on the test server it had no penalty to bombs.

I do agree that having striker as a bomber would be really nice though, you can't really use your recon/guardian as much in combat anyway since you have to charge.

~Spag

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 13:04

Aquajag

If you want to be a striker

If you want to be a striker bomber, get CTR trinkets. Two elite trinkets would negate the penalty. Then wear your bomber ctr armor, either Mad or Volcanic, then you're back in business!

But the Striker really is there to overpower swords. So, you'd be giving up all your advantages to be a striker bomber.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 13:09

Traevelliath

I don't...

Strikers are annoying enough and popular enough as is. Don't need to buff them.

As a recon bomber/swordsman, CTR max is faster than you would think. Also, if you get 1 VT down, you're untouchable to swordsmen, easily hiding in the AOE and laying more VT's, slowly expanding your safe zone.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 14:55

Meanghost

clearly

Clearly people use a flourish well enough with striker. If they dropped a few VT or shivermist busters the class would be even more OP. Strikers should not get easy status conditions on players that easily.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 15:36

The-Rawrcake

Lol, or they could make it

Lol, or they could make it INTERESTING xD.

Once every 30 seconds, a striker can lay down a bomb instantly without charging it. They will get a 30 second debuff cooldown upon droppin' a bomb instantly (think of it acting like a status debuff).

This way, a negative CTR VH + the above effect would make it pretty interesting for everyone.

Then, they remove EITHER the sword ASI medium OR damage medium (not both) bonus to help compensate for the added effect.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 16:05

Zeddy

I've fought bomber strikers;

I've fought bomber strikers; they are insane.

It's really worth getting trinkets for.

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 19:13

#10

Lizzi

I've been planning to get two

I've been planning to get two CTR trinks to supplement my Mad Bomber Set in a path to potentially become a striker bomber. But is the health penalty and the status defects from the mad Bomber worth it? (I'm too poor to afford CTR UVs. XD)

Fri, 06/22/2012 - 20:11

#11

Aquajag

well you'll die fast, that's

well you'll die fast, that's for sure. But just think: You spam RSS and Haze. And then when that pesky gunner won't come near, or that guardian tries to push in and sword you, you whip our your Pointy Stick of Preference and quickly stab them to death, because you're a STRIKER! It has potential!!

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 05:31

#12

Divisor

Removing most overpowered LD

Removing most overpowered LD class's only weakness and giving them access to most annoying weapon class in LD ?
Seems legit.

Sat, 06/23/2012 - 05:58

#13

Metagenic

think of the potential without the bomb penalty

Bombs' main point is area of effect. Strikers' main point is high speed, covering large distances in short amounts of time.

AOE weapon + CTR max + high speed = supermassive area denial, much more than enough to be overpowered

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 03:07

#14

Iceyknlght

Be interesting to have Max

Be interesting to have Max ctr and striker and you just charge in to the enemy base in the beginning of the game and place your bomb right in the enemy's cp and lol that means non guardian have to wait 3+ seconds to capture the point. So your team can capture the middle point in ease.

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 07:18

#15

Derpules

Is it really that good?

If it was, you'd expect to see it all the time, wouldn't you? CTR VH bombs aren't any more expensive than ASI VH swords. Why doesn't every rich LDer do this? (Or do they?)

I barely LD, so mostly just curious.

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 11:30

#16

Yukarie

I'd expect it to be because

I'd expect it to be because why bother with disabling the enemies when you can kill them dead? Also that wearing bomber gear (Either armor or trinkets) means you either give up your sword MAX damage from not wearing skolver, or you're giving up your health pendants.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 04:41

#17

Aquajag

It might be worth giving up

It might be worth giving up the sword bonus though. You'd have a decent sword boost as a backup, but imagine this: that bomber guy is irritating you. You go to chase him down, only to have him zip away! How fun would that be!!

Of course now that they are murdering shard bombs, you won't mind bombers any more. So a striker bomber may be the only kind of bomber worth making.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 11:36

#18

Yukarie

I don't think it is, on the

I don't think it is, on the basis that now you're disadvantaged against all the other skolver clones, if you have to fight them. Sure, you can now camp them harder, until they shoot you with their polaris. Not to mention that all the bomber armors are elemental iirc, meaning you lost a lot of your piercing defense against said skolver clones.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 12:44

#19

Traevelliath

@Aquajag Recon status bombers? Also it sounds like the shard bombs will be getting a massive AOE increase. 1 Sun Shard already takes off a third of a Guardian's health, so now imagine those shards exploding spectacularly.

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 23:00

#20

Aquajag

RIP RSS

@Yukarie But what you just listed, about defense, bombers already face, whether they are strikers are not. So I don't see how being a bomber striker suddenly makes dealing with skolver clones harder than dealing with them as any other bomber class.

@Traevelliath I'm not inclined to trust the change to RSS, to be useful. Sure, it does area affect. Know why I don't use Nitro or DBB in LD? Area affect is very easy to avoid. Also, area affect does not nearly as much damage as shards. So they say they aren't nerfing the damage, but I have a hard time believing it will hit as hard. And since I won't be able to nail the striker chasing me down with extra damage, it also is less useful. It's hard to believe the changes will be a benefit in any way to bombers, and not just a complete and total nerf.

Fri, 06/29/2012 - 10:06

#21

Yukarie

Because, if you're not a

Because, if you're not a bomber striker, you don't have to wear bomber armor. Example, you can go bomber recon, and have CTR max on all your stuff, and use generic other piercing armor. That and I assumed it was just the idea of being striker first, with the option of having AoE denial.

Fri, 06/29/2012 - 19:46

#22

Akvar

I'll just add this in here

because it's been bugging me along time. In regards to why Aquajag doesn't use DBB and Nitro, why are bombs the only weapon to show where they will damage. I think that only the bomber should be able to see the radii of the bombs being placed. As it stands why don't gunners have a line showing how far and where their bullets will travel or swords have an arc showing the area and length of their first swing. Having these would make it much easier to dodge especially with swords where the hit box doesn't always match the swords appearance. Bombers are already at a big disadvantage because of this and I think it needs to be addressed.

Sat, 06/30/2012 - 23:09

#23

Aquajag

RIP RSS

@Akvar I just saw you mention this issue somewhere else. I'd never thought of it before. To me, that was just part of Bombs, showing you that. But you're right, given how frustrated I get that I get stabbed by a sword that stops 3 feet away from me (not very sword-like, to hurt people past the edge of the blade, BTW), it would make sense to remove the damage "hit box" of the bombs. I think one reason it is there, though, is so that when a ton of bombs are being spammed, you know which are friendly, and which are enemy. This is actually very useful, and something I wouldn't mind with bullets either.

but you're right: to be fair, and equal, and just, the bomb radius shouldn't show up to other players. But so far Bombers seem to be getting slapped all around by the developers, like they're afraid of us being too powerful. Even though pure bombers seem fairly rare....

@Yukarie
Yes that's true you could wear other armor. Right now I'm wearing Bombastic in LD because Recon gives me all the CTR I need. But the one catch to your thought is, you'll lose out on something. Either you won't get damage max without at least one piece of bomber armor, and/or you won't have as many heart trinkets. I don't know which is better as far as living, a +6 heart pendant or two pieces of piercing armor (instead of the elemental that all bomber gear is). But if you really want to dish out the pain, you've got to have some bomber armor. The damage boost, at least on the current Shards, is very very significant.

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 00:34

#24

Lizzi

@Akvar and Aquajag

I really like this idea of not showing the hitbox of damage-based radius bombs. However, it could possibly make us, as bombers, a tad bit overpowered. What I suggest is that maybe they could just show the bomb that is being placed into the ground (without the circles surrounding it) for the whole time the bomb is active (unless, this IS what you meant by not showing the hitboxes). This would prevent haze bombs from being OP and give us enough surprise to keep up with sword strikers, as they'll have to be more watchful for bombs.

At the very least, they could remove the shaded radius circles (I mean seriously, what was the point of that update, other than to give away bombers more in PvP? :I)

@ Yukarie

Defense against damage types doesn't really matter in Lockdown. A Skolver with the same health as a Dread Skelly could both die in the same number of hits from a Gran Faust. A bomber with the same health as a SKolver could die in the same number of hits from a toothpick. A bomber and a Skolver could both get easily mowed down by brandish-line charge attacks. The point is, it is usually more desirable to equip armors that boost offensive performance and resist certain statuses rather than try to protect against a certain damage type.

As a recon bomber, you'd need to learn how to dodge things to make up for your lack of mobility and huge shield. And when you dodge, you don't get hit. When you don't get hit, you can dish out attacks easier. When you can dish out attacks easier, it's often good to boost offensive potential. Where my question lies is whether it is more effective to optimize offensive capabilities with trinkets or to optimize health with trinkets.

Of course, if you carry a toothpick or something as a sidearm to your mostly bomb loadout, you can try to hybridize armors and mix sets (like have half Bombtastic and half Skolver). This is often recommended, as a full bombing set can lead to disaster if you get cornered or shot at or what have you.

...Although I usually play with a full bombing set for the lolz.

Sun, 07/01/2012 - 14:15

#25

Akvar

What I was referring to is

What I was referring to is the white circle that shows the AoE of bombs being laid and if I remember correctly this was added in game before PvP was introduced but puts bombers at a disadvantage in PvP. What I think should happen is that only the bomber placing the bomb should be able to see the white circle and the enemy would have to use skill and guessing to judge the radius of the blast or AoE. This would make the bomb less noticeable to the enemy team. I can't even count how many times I have seen a striker come running in, to see the white circle of a bomb being placed, and just stops and pulls out a gun to wail on me. I just want bombers to have the element of surprise like the rest of the classes of weapons. This is in no way trying to say that they should make mist or any other bombs animations unnoticeable and even as a bomber I wish they would fix the broken invisible mist bombs in LD.

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 02:18

#26

Metaalpha

It's simple

Recon: gun & bomb

Guardian: sword & bomb

Striker: Gun & sword

People usually use swords as recon but the bonuses suggest what they're best with

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 18:31

#27

Bromon

The problem isnt what theyre

The problem isnt what theyre best with. The problem is that Bombs really can't be use effectively as a striker at all. A guardian can still use a gun effectively and a recon can most certainly use sword effectively but in order for a striker to use a bomb effectively they need either Mad bomber (which is full of devastating weaknesses) or a CTR VH bomb. Very High. Do you know how expensive that is?Not only that, but it can only be achieved in T3. In T2 striker bomber is impossible. I can't even get a freaking damage bonus in T2.

Mon, 07/02/2012 - 18:31

#28

Bromon

The problem isnt what theyre

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Striker Class doesn't favor bombers? :I