Spiral Knights - Poison VS Fire

Poison VS Fire

18 replies [Last post]

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 10:04

Fehzor

I had a thought- poison's main thing it has going is that it makes healers damage enemies. We can't see it going as much, but would poison out damage fire if your party were all damaging things while leaving the healers to kill things with them?

Fire deals a set amount of damage each second for a duration of a set amount of time, and is only hindered when it is stacked with itself or put out.

Poison deals the damage of the healers plus the increased damage of your friends plus the damage that they do due to not dying due to the lessened damage.

At what point does poison become the better option?

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 10:25

Trying

The thing is we cant see numerically how much damage poison does.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 11:05

Oatmonster

Lick

I thought they removed the poison dealing damage when you heal thing.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 11:42

Juances

They removed it, then added it again, then re-removed then re-added it again.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 13:36

Pauling

Depends on how you count it

This is a misleading question. Fire only does direct damage (it hurts things).

But in the presence of healers, poison does two kinds of damage:
1. Direct damage: The act of being healed hurts a monster
2. Indirect damage/ opportunity cost: the monster didn't get healed from existing injuries

For example: if a monster was being healed as fast as fire did damage, then an ash of agni would never kill the monster. But a venom veiler would.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 14:06

Dark-Flare

Poison > Firewhen you have a

Poison > Fire
when you have a high DPS in your whole party.
(such as, you are using a autogun line, or brandish charges, or everyone is just whaling on the monsters...)

Basically, if you can deal damage/ hit monsters faster than a fire tick, then poison works better.

Also, you can't stack fire damage (if 4 people inflict fire on one monster, it still receives the same fire damage), but the damage bonus from poison does (if poison adds, say, 20 damage to each hit, and 4 people are damaging it, you get another 80 damage for every hit dealt)

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 15:03

Cryoworld

Pretty sure poison has never

Pretty sure poison has never actually dealt damage in this game. It simply prevents monsters from being healed while lowering their defense.

I think you're confusing poison with curse.

Mon, 06/25/2012 - 16:00

Trying

It does do damage. Just do an arena run with someone with a VV.

Tue, 06/26/2012 - 02:17

Nitez

I'm a bomber

I'm going to use both :D. Status effects stack WOO.

PS: I have 3 of the 4 awesome sauce haze bombs. (which means stun is out of the question)

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 02:03

Abathur

I've asked this question

I've asked this question often to GMs and tested it myself. Havent played a long time now, but 3 months ago it was like this:

- Poison prevents heal
- Poison damages instead of heal (but not 100% and you WONT see damage nubers, but often seen mobs dying by healing)
- Poison decreases the damage they deal
- Poison increase the damage they take

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 03:19

#10

Fehzor

Lets see some formulas for poison damage...

What we'll need:

A=Damage menders do when left intact if left alive

B=Health that would have been restored if not using poison before menders would have been killed

C=Damage dealt by your party with the poison, due to not messing with menders + having increased damage
D=Damage your party would have done without poison to non-mender enemies, had they had to have dealt with the menders first
E=Unnecessary damage caused by your party with poison, E.G. A DA hit does 200, and an enemy has 300 health. The poison damage is wasted.

Poison damage = A+B+C-D-E
---------------

Now for fire damage:

What we'll need:
A=Damage per tick
B=Total number of ticks on all enemies
C=Number of wasted ticks (EG, 3/5 ticks in, the enemy gets re-lit on fire)

Fire damage = A*(B-C)

Whats the difference?

Fire has no basis in your team helping you, while poison relies entirely off of your team helping you. The major variables in poison are your parties damage with and without poison, and the menders. If your party knows to ignore menders and kill enemies, then poison will be better. Fire on the other hand relies equally on the damage it deals and the number of effected enemies... and ignore your team mates. Poison is also better on gunners, as they have less over flow of damage. The point at which poison surpasses fire is that where your party is good at the game, or that where there are many healers. Or both.

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 03:29

#11

Abathur

Uhm ... you kinda forgot

Uhm ... you kinda forgot something. You are not forced to let the mendors alive. It actually helps you to kill them faster, since 2 or more of them won't be able to heal their mate mendors. Poison overall is the best stat, since it's an amazing debuff. I'm not shure how much damage has been increased. I doubt it was 10% more damage and 50% less taken. Not sure about this anymore xP

I like poison much more than fire. Fire is just damage and thats what my weapons do anyway. And I like to focus targets for less incoming damage or block. Less enemies = less trouble. So I'm not fan of try to get all enemies burning first.

Sry for my meh english xP

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 08:40

#12

Demonicsothe

I believe the damage debuff

I believe the damage debuff on poison is something under 50%. I usually take 3 bars of damage from a zombie leap, but when poisoned it was 2 bars. Course, it could all have been rounded, but I don't feel like poison debuffs as much as 50% attack when it's used.

For vana, a max damage blitz does 286 without poison, and 311 with. Maybe his resistance has something to do with it.

Wed, 06/27/2012 - 21:51

#13

Noogard

Poison defense debuff numbers do seem weird.

The attack debuff is definitely half when inflicted on players and is most likely nearly the same thing on enemies but the defense debuff is fairly small and has been estimated to be about 10% but the numbers always end up appearing wonky as far as I can tell although that's been attributed to the damage formula but this idea is shot down by the exactly half damage I see when I'm poison afflicted. It'd be easier to tell if it weren't for the fact players deal numbers and enemies deal pips.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:17

#14

Zeddy

The thing is that weak poison

The thing is that weak poison doesn't debuff as much as strong poison does. The most common source of poison does weak (Venom Veiler), and even our strongest non-vial sources only deal moderate poison, whereas all Tier 3 enemies that deal poison deals strong. That's why poison is perceived as more effective on knights than enemies.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 17:31

#15

Demonicsothe

Oh about that zeddy. I'm 80%

Oh about that zeddy. I'm 80% sure that when a friends vv was on vana, I was doing 311. That's the same number as a T3 poison vial.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 18:09

#16

Zeddy

So.... Strong poison is no

So.... Strong poison is no stronger than weak poison? Someone needs to confirm this.

Thu, 06/28/2012 - 19:06

#17

Demonicsothe

Perhaps there's a duration to

Perhaps there's a duration to it? I'm really not 100% sure, since I never blitz if I'm bombing.

Fri, 06/29/2012 - 00:49

#18

Misten

VV has less damage boost

VV has less damage boost compared to poison vial.

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Poison VS Fire