Spiral Knights - Party versus solo; danger rooms; arenas; "optional but required"

Party versus solo; danger rooms; arenas; "optional but required"

7 replies [Last post]

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 22:07

BehindCurtai

Legacy Username

I just got a reminder of why I hate working with a party, and why the current party button / danger room setup stinks.

I joined a party on depth 2. High Voltail -- wolves aren't normally a problem, and I'm not expecting a little shock to make a difference. And, by the time I'm joining in, most of the level is clear. A big battle, and then the next level -- but these people are in such a hurry that they leave lots of plants (and coins, and heat) behind.

Depth 3 -- slimes in a shock themed clockworks tunnels. And then, a danger room.

I warn them that it's a danger room. They say that they know.
I warn them that I won't be much help. No problem. Right?

Well, naturally, we're slaughtered.

So what's the issue?

1. Danger rooms: Oh, sure, a warning. How many people will take it seriously the first time? How many people will think "I'm killing everything normally found left and right. So it's more dangerous. I can wipe the floor with the normal stuff, so danger must be right for me, right?"

There's no indication of how MUCH harder it is.
There's no way to say "Let me out!!!"

It's all or nothing, and you don't get a clear indication of how badly you'll be overwhelmed.

Result: A beginner that runs into this might be very discouraged, and not want to play after that.

2. Party see, party do.

If I'm in a party, and someone wants to do the danger room, I have no choice. I cannot say "Not me".

Well, I could. I could go solo, at least now (couldn't before). But we cannot split the party. We cannot have some people say "Mini party -- the two of us will take a two person danger room (a little weaker than a 4 person danger room), and the rest of you don't get the rewards".

If two of us want to avoid, we cannot split off a two person party.
If some want to do the danger room, and succeed, we cannot merge back into one big party afterwards.

Now, if danger rooms behave this way, I'm going to assume that arenas still do as well. As in, after the first room, two people might want to stop and take the elevator; the rest want to fight more. You can't split the party. You can't even say "virtual split -- I'll wait in the elevator, and just be in spectator mode while you fight".

For random pickup groups? When you don't have a good chat system as your social code base? (Sorry -- it is much harder to chat with your party here than it is in YPP. Much harder.)

Playing with a party looks like it becomes "split off as a solo player". Which brings me back to why not just play solo in the first place?

Thu, 04/28/2011 - 22:10

Raul

1. It has a thingy that reads

1. It has a thingy that reads WARNING VERY HARD AREA UP AHEAD

2. Yes, I have that problem as well.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 00:32

dukelexon

Legacy Username

Funny. My biggest problem

Funny. My biggest problem with danger rooms when I'm in a group seems to be folks that want to avoid danger rooms at all costs. Not necessarily over difficulty and a perceived danger of dying multiple times, either, but because of the PUNY 3 ENERGY COST OF OPENING THE GATE.

I don't know how many times I've explained to people that the first 2 shard-or-higher material drops they obtain just clearing the monsters in the danger room will pay for cost of opening it, and most of the time, you get 1-2 tokens in the treasure boxes at the end. Factor in the crowns, heat, and various mats that drop from the kills of just clearing the room .... well, let's just say that if you know what you're doing, and can ensure that you'll survive it, it's always worth it to do them.

If you can be sure, however, that the monsters in the particular danger room will be nasty or your chances of not dying any less than 500 times is fairly slim .... then, yeah, skip it.

It's been my experience that people need to be encouraged to do more danger rooms, especially at lower depths .... not less.

For those of you that have so much trouble with them, arenas, ambushes in general, here's a tip. Put away the sword. Invest in a good bomb. Maintain your distance .... always save your own hide before doing damage; only risk a pause to lay a bomb down if you know you can afford the second of kiting time. It has been my experience that it's a lot easier to solo danger rooms, primarily because the majority of the player base are such idiots when it comes to how they approach them. They knock crap into their teammates, kite enemies through the kite path of another teammate, and get themselves killed 200 times because they can't grasp the concept that diving into the fray with their sword is not a good idea versus 10+ opponents, and that their shields will NOT hold out.

Of course, there are enemies that aren't smart to try to bomb (fast moving things like those bats, or things that stay mostly stationary and just throw out monster AOEs, like retrodes or fire puppy heads) .... just adapt the best you can. Understanding that 95% of crowd control situations are more easily resolved by bombs than a group of four fools with caliburs jumping into a mosh pit is the first step in turning danger rooms and arenas into "collect loot" mode.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 00:51

Fenix-Stryk

Honestly, T1 and T2 Danger

Honestly, T1 and T2 Danger Rooms are so easy that if I see one, I automatically open it and ask the party if they want to get carried. I tell them that I can solo it and will solo it even if they don't want to come along. I will make it a point to say that all they have to do is go in and let me handle it, and that I'll even pay CE if I die due to complacency. And if they still don't want to go, I'll ask for pills as a good-faith measure before I "Go Solo", to really drive the point home that I am going to solo it.

Skipping Danger Rooms is a straight loss of Crowns and Energy. It is worse than dying. It's that important; I 100% refuse in all situations to skip a Danger Room, to the point where I will leave anyone and everyone that is afraid to let me clear it. You could even argue that it's too important, but the alternative to that is that it then becomes not worth doing and everyone skips it anyway; that would be worse.
-

If your party wants to do it, then try. Even if you die half-way through, you still get something from what you killed and you also get real-life (haha) experience that will help you next time you go in. What is there to be afraid of?

You make a fair point about Danger Rooms being double or nothing (can't take two, leave two and have both twos stay together), but how can you fix that? Go Solo is as close as we can get. I'm honestly okay with what we have.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 00:56

dukelexon

Legacy Username

FenixStryk is dead on.

FenixStryk is dead on. Danger Rooms, Arenas .... people don't understand just how profitable they are.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 00:58

Awesomest

Legacy Username

ADD n00bs just won't listen.

duke, I love you for everything you just said, but:

Put away the sword.

lol.

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 01:10

Pawn

@dukelexon

i cracked up at your breakdown of the danger room. So true. For bombs being underpowered...they are almost over powered. I've been doing solo t2 runs in all 2 star cobalt gear and 2 star blast bomb. Mind you, that's not danger rooms/arena's included. Now that i have a mix of 2/3 stars, and demo armor, and lvl 3 bombs, yeah, i'll solo those rooms or die trying.

1 thing i've noticed that may help is that most large battles have a support monster spawn and a tank monster spawn. And if you take them out at the same time you'll hit wave 3 or 4 of each at the same time, and then you are fighting 6 retrodes and 8 gun pups and good luck. But they only respawn once you kill the current entire wave. So i'll kill all but one of the starting support mobs-say a gun pup(healers/gun pups/bomb gremlins etc) and then just working on killing as many waves of tanks as they'll let me while fighting on the opposite side of the room from the gun pup. Not sure if this is how danger rooms work, but I KNOW it is how arenas work. And next thing u know there is that lone gun pup. I kill it, and wave 2 of support pops, 2 healers w/nothing to heal. Kill them, and 4 gun pups pop, kill them then 8 gun pups. Gun pups/support becomes really easy without tanks in the fight. Actually, usually if there are not any tanks gun pups will remain inactive until attacked. Or at least many in a room wil.

Hope it helps.
Use bombs.
Kill tank mobs first and try and leave 1 support mob alive rather than triggering the spawn of massive support and tanks at the same time. Good luck.

P.S. Play slow and steady and get those hearts. Duke wasn't kidding, no reason to dive into a 10 mobs with a 2 star sword :/ even for a charged attack

Fri, 04/29/2011 - 01:31

Fenix-Stryk

About the "Put away the

About the "Put away the sword! Use bombs!" comment:
that's not exactly true either, although it's a nice jumping-off point in terms of the general strategy you want to use against large packs (such as those in Danger Rooms). In terms of attacking, the number one thing you want to do is maintain two things: 1) mobility, and 2) an escape route. For Bombs and Guns, you're always running so you never really have to think about it, but that doesn't mean you can't do the same thing with Swords.

Apply SPSP (Shoot-Pause, Shoot-Pause, read: don't use your last swing) methods instead of SSR (Shoot-Shoot-Reload; using your full combo) damage strats, but on your Sword. Reposition during each pause, keep circle strafing and kiting just out of their attacks, use your shield as needed. It's no different than a Gun that you just need to be closer to land... and hell, if all else fails, pull out your Blaster/Antigua/Alchemer and kite for real.

I don't use bombs, but it hasn't stopped me. It's all about the mindset and your execution.

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Party versus solo; danger rooms; arenas; "optional but required"