Spiral Knights - Hey. Hey OOO. Hey. I'd like to tell you a thing about petitions...

Hey. Hey OOO. Hey. I'd like to tell you a thing about petitions...

27 replies [Last post]

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 08:50

Tersakaff

Petitions are NOT suggestions.

"A petition is a request to do something, most commonly addressed to a government official or public entity." ; "a petition is a document addressed to some official and signed by numerous individuals."

Therefore it belongs in General Discussion.

"But Tersakoff, a petition suggests something!"

Yes, but, due to it's nature, it is not a suggestion. Because it first addresses players, to sign it, and then it addresses you, to make it happen. A suggestion is person A saying something smart or dumb that he wants to see happen, and a petition isn't that. It's a thing more people want to see happen, therefore it addresses the community. Plus, a petition needs exposure, and the suggestions forum does not provide enough.

So essentially, a petition should stay in general discussion because it has more of a community aspect than a suggestion aspect.

Edit, I decided to move a post to the OP: Bopp said, "I inadvertently proposed a model (or maybe you did?) in which petitions start out in the Suggestions forum and are then promoted to General Discussion if they gain support." However...

"So maybe a suggestion that gets enough support could well be converted into a petition"
Now here's something that's pretty subjective: Let's say an idea to make use of the right side of Haven with things that would involve a huge volume of work from OOO's side, basically calling in for a lot of new, solid content, gets a lot of supporters. However, this cannot be a petition. Why? OOO can't be forced to dedicate their time to it.
However, let's say there's an idea that asks for older players to redo the creation process, something that doesn't require so much work from OOO, and is... how should I call it... more like, community related. Or, if they wouldn't have done it anyway, a petition to remove the emoticons how they did it once- :) was turning into "Knight laughs.". That's an appropriate petition, rather than a suggestion.
This is subjective to every idea/petition.. I hope you understood what I was trying to say here.. basically, a minor change with a great community impact can be a petition, a huge content suggestion cannot.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 09:01

Bopp

semantics

This comes down to an argument over the precise definitions of words. Such arguments tend to be tedious and not illuminating.

In truth, there is no clear dividing line between discussions and suggestions. There's a spectrum. A single discussion can move along the spectrum over time, as posts like "How does this aspect of the game work?" are followed by "Why is it like that?" and then "Let's change it to this!".

"A suggestion is person A saying something smart or dumb that he wants to see happen, and a petition isn't that. It's a thing more people want to see happen, therefore it addresses the community."

The distinction you're making is that a suggestion is made by one person, while a petition is supported by many people? According to your criterion, a newly created petition is a suggestion. A suggestion that gets a lot of +1s is a petition. See how one turns into the other?

"Plus, a petition needs exposure, and the suggestions forum does not provide enough."

This is not a compelling argument. Every poster in these forums wants more exposure for his/her posts.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 09:54

Derpules

Really, Bopp?

"This comes down to an argument over the precise definitions of words. Such arguments tend to be tedious and not illuminating." <-- Then why continue with it? You must think there's something illuminating about your post, else you wouldn't have made it.

That aside, I don't really see a problem with the model you've sketched. So maybe a suggestion that gets enough support could well be converted into a petition, and a petition that gets no support is basically just a suggestion. Seems workable to me!

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 10:01

Luguiru

Yurp

"This petition is only suggesting something, I can ignore it if I want."
Petition for {something} has been moved.
"It seems there are now even more supporters for it. I should just ignore it."
There are now intelligent and favorable arguments supporting the petition.
"Oh, those are good points, maybe I will do something about it."
The petition now has appeals to the community and Three Rings so both benefit without damaging existing content.
"That looks good. That looks very good."

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 10:12

Bopp

Derpules

"This comes down to an argument over the precise definitions of words. Such arguments tend to be tedious and not illuminating."
Then why continue with it? You must think there's something illuminating about your post, else you wouldn't have made it.

My post was not arguing over the semantics of "petition" vs. "suggestion". It was arguing that such semantic arguments are silly.

I respect Tersakaff, so I'm trying to help him refine his argument, to turn it into something useful. In doing so, I inadvertently proposed a model (or maybe you did?) in which petitions start out in the Suggestions forum and are then promoted to General Discussion if they gain support. I'm not sure what I think about that. Cheers. :)

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 10:15

Wodanct

Unsure if the community

Unsure if the community demanding for RSS to be left alone is merely a suggestion but ok. For anyone that isn't a bomber they probably don't care. For a bomber or people that play with bombs RSS is the only cool bomb that actually takes some skill to use because it doesn't explode.. well it explodes into shrapnel.. what I mean is a bomb that doesn't make a huge aoe explosion. Tricking monsters to step into the center of the RSS.. making trojans dash on top of the RSS, sniping turrets, and etc. That all takes way more skill and timing then dropping a bomb that goes boom.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 10:16

Pepperonius

@Bopp

Actually, i find that idea to be excellent. I've found that the suggestions forum is very good at eliminating ridiculous suggestions very quickly, and also quite capable of refining a good idea into an excellent one. Once it gains steam, then yeah, move to GD for the public to see, and then get it done.

+1 to Bopp, and Tersakoff as well.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 10:29

Derpules

@Bopp

When you're discussing the slipperiness of the distinction, and going into hypotheticals demonstrating how the two can shade into each other, you're still participating in "an argument over the precise definitions of words". A claim that no precise distinction can be drawn is still a definitional point.

Not sure I agree that such arguments are necessarily "silly", given that significant (relatively speaking) consequences flow from how that definitional dispute is resolved by the relevant authority. It is because petitions are currently considered to be a breed of suggestion (or so I infer from the OP) that they end up lumped where no one sees them. As long as that reasoning remains the justification for this categorisation, you can't challenge that decision except definitionally.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 10:42

Tersakaff

"The distinction you're making is that a suggestion is made by one person, while a petition is supported by many people? According to your criterion, a newly created petition is a suggestion. A suggestion that gets a lot of +1s is a petition. See how one turns into the other?"

This can be answered with something you said yourself: "Such arguments tend to be tedious and not illuminating."

Truth is, there is no actual hard rock undeniable argument that makes petitions not belong in the suggestions forum. The point I'm trying to make is that they don't really belong there as they have a community aspect more than a suggestion aspect.
I'm not the best at explaining things and such, I usually just go "IT'S LIKE THAT CAUSE IT'S LIKE THAT".. ^^;

I do agree with what Bopp said here: "I inadvertently proposed a model (or maybe you did?) in which petitions start out in the Suggestions forum and are then promoted to General Discussion if they gain support." I'll paste this into the original post. However...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 11:16

Bopp

Derpules and Tersakaff

Derpules, there are a few levels of meta-argument happening here. Anyway, you're making reasonable statements. I agree with you that I've exhausted my interest in this issue. I do not intend to play a "move this to Suggestions" policeman; on the other hand, I do not expect to get upset when a Three Rings moderator moves a thread to Suggestions.

Tersakaff, your newest post clarifies your intent a bit. Three Rings would ideally be responsive to small requests with massive support, even if they can't be responsive to large requests or requests with small support. I'm not sure how much this thread will help, but good luck. Cheers, all.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 11:37

#10

Juances

There's a shadow copy linking there. Why chose one place when we can have both.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 11:49

#11

Serell

yeah

Doesn't matter if it's moved. They leave a shadow copy... makes no sense

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 12:02

#12

Alynn

Moo~~

Moving it to Suggestions is just another indication that OOO doesnt care.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 12:18

#13

Xylka-Mkii

So technically speaking

So technically speaking everyone who posted in this just wasted their time argueing aboutsomething that both sides will never come to an agreement or compromise with because we're all ignorant at least to some degree and is showing our community really is that horrible because we continue to display our ignorance ...

.. You know... Just sayin' the facts...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 12:28

#14

Blitzwingoo

I think it's pointless

You're arguing the finer points of whether something is a suggestion or not in the belief that if you can prove it's not a suggestion that the thread will return to the general thread. However I believe if something is popular enough, even if it was a suggestion....if OOO wanted it to remain in the general section it would. Also if something was not a suggestion, if OOO wanted it moved to the suggestion section....they'd do that too.

Do you honestly think if you could prove it was not a suggestion that OOO could be forced to bring it back to the general section no matter how much backing of the fans you had?

I think it's pointless....I'm certain they've already began working on the crystal bomb update before they announced it and some work at least has been in the game for a few patches now. I seriously doubt any protest will get them to change their minds now. The petition being swept into the suggestion section is just more proof the fans have no say, in my opinion.

Why don't you just create another thread called "Lets discuss the purposed changes to the Crystal Bomb" in the general section and see if that gets moved into the suggestions.....or the arsenal, lol.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 13:00

#15

Aumir

Also

We could maybe continue this by talking about it in the thread Nick made, there is already many people expressing their disagree there. And at least, we have the shadow copy.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 13:22

#16

Tersakaff

@Juan and Serell

The shadowy copy disappears after a short period of time. A day I think.

@Xylka

How is discussing something ignorance? lol

@Blitz

No, I do not believe this will make OOO leave them in General Discussion. I'm just trying to make a point here. Have a discussion, see what other people think...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 16:11

#17

Zeddy

I bet this topic gets moved

I bet this topic gets moved to suggestions.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 16:13

#18

Tersakaff

Haha, that would be such a trolly move from OOO.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 16:57

#19

Serell

really?

The shadow copy never goes away for me...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 17:08

#20

Fehzor

You know what else belongs in suggestions? Satire.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 04:48

#21

Orangeo

Suggestions just means

Suggestions just means graveyard. Uh oh, I used satire. This threads gonna get moved to the suggestions!

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 05:23

#22

Tersakaff

Serell, can you find the shadowy copy of my petition? :) If that was true, it would be riight on top of general discussion. For months.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 07:07

#23

Xylka-Mkii

@ Tersakaff Well its the

@ Tersakaff

Well its the topic you're discussing. Reality speaking, they aren't forced to keep petitions in General Discussion, and no matter how much you discuss whether something is a suggestion or not, is only up to what each person believes. In the end, It is an ideaforthe game as a request from the players to the Devs.

You aren't going to change someone's mind just because you can logically prove it one way, because in their minds they can prove it the other way just as easily.

Its a stalemate of a discussion about discussions and where they belong. In the end, whether its in Suggestions or GD, most likely the petition will not work, and the game is still under OOO full control, with the community having some influence on their decisions.

Then again I just wasted my time because like I said, no one will switch sides because the other side says something. No matter what.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 07:10

#24

Eltia

@Tersakaff

Just heads up.

Petition never works in SK. Back in the Lockbox / Shadow Key saga, protest and demonstration (Occupy Haven) work better.

Judging from the language Nick used in the shard bomb announcement, I would gauge it as a pretty firm determination (on Nick's part) to deploy what is in his head. All the fine prints about we will be cautious about the balancing are there just in case the change backfires.

Think about it for a sec. RSS has been with us for a very long time and people found ways to enjoy it. The problem here is that Nick is taking away RSS because he feels Shard Bombs in general do not fit into his idea of what a Bomb should do (spread out and hit multiple targets at once). He further states that "I believe that it is in the best interest of the game and will ultimately lead to a better play experience for everyone". To me, that is a pretty big thesis he claims there with significant consequences.

What worries me is the lack of disclosure on how this change going to be tested. If it is one week testing on test server for selective P2P players (and we aren't even sure if these sample is representative of the whole SK Bomber population), there is something not quite right here and people are right to be worried about this change.

Good luck to Cradle. The shadow maybe upon us once again.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 08:39

#25

Tersakaff

@Xylka
Okay? This is just a discussion lol. It's not meant to change the world.

@Eltia
There's just some things they won't change, and some they will.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 12:14

#26

Serell

ahhh....

You're right, I can't find your petition here anymore.
Regardless, the shadow copy stays for VERY LONG time, way more than one day.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 13:26

#27

Tersakaff

Maybe two or three. Not very long.

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Hey. Hey OOO. Hey. I'd like to tell you a thing about petitions...