Spiral Knights - Doctorspacebar's feedback on the Shard Bombs (AKA everything that the devs got horribly wrong)

Doctorspacebar's feedback on the Shard Bombs (AKA everything that the devs got horribly wrong)

14 replies [Last post]

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 21:10

Doctorspacebar

I'm not gonna lie, I am really annoyed at many aspects of the new Shard Bombs. Here's everything that's bad about them, and ideas to fix the parts that are crappy. (And those particular parts are crappy. You won't convince me otherwise.)

WE HAVE NO EVEN DECENTLY-RANGED OPTION ANYMORE. Gunners should be able to plink switches and turrets like nobody's business. I respect that. But when swordsmen with their Barbarous Lockdown Breaker can hit switches, or can use a DA to snipe Howlitzers... Bombers really feel shafted. Solution: Make a fragmentation grenade with a decent range. It doesn't have to be as jaw droppingly amazing as the old RSS range... just something to keep us from taking an hour in Clockworks switch mazes. To avoid the "problems" the RSS had, make the shards spawn spread out, and give it an explosion to make it "bomb like".

IT'S SO SLOOOOOW. By the time the shards explode, the Mecha Knight inside has walked outside their radius to cut your face open. I understand you don't want to create walls of damage, but you just can't hit anything with this slowness- I have trouble landing shards in TIER 1! To compensate for this, it is IMPERATIVE that the shards explode faster. Increasing the blast radius of both the bomb and the shards even slightly would also be greatly appreciated. LD Skolver Zombie Strikers are going to gripe, but they can stop whining and get a gun. An alternative would be to have the shards lightly stun (and interrupt) anything hit by them when they LAND, long enough to keep them in range of the Shards.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, BOYS AND GIRLS, BEHOLD MAGICAL DOC'S DISAPPEARING SHARDS! I understand not all the shards should be appearing if they're next to a wall, but really, there needs to be a little more leeway. I want to be able to cause actual damage to Battlepods. And let the shards go through some things, like say the back end of a Trojan (you know, the end that doesn't have the shield).
EDIT: Upon further testing, I've figured out that the shard lands normally 3 squares away, reliably stops if it hits a wall 2 squares away, and may randomly vanish on a wall 1 square away.

DAMAGE IS PATHETIC COMPARED TO EQUIVALENT BLAST BOMBS. Tests in the Gloaming Wildwoods revealed the unheated 3* Normal-damage Super Shard Bomb, when both the center explosion AND one Shard hit, do less damage than the unheated 3* Super Blast Bomb. The unheated 5* Splinter Bomb (piercing) was weaker than the unheated Dark Briar Barrage (also 5* and Piercing) in a similar fashion. ISB and RSS compete against their respective families (even with Max Damage, that status is very nice to have), but otherwise one can find better bombs.

Of course, I can't even test properly since they come unheated! I have a life outside SK, so I'd really rather not spend ages heating two bombs I won't even use on the Test Server. If, however, the sum of a HEATED Shard Bomb's Initial explosion and Shard don't measure up to a Heated Blast bomb of the same star level and damage type... the damage needs a buff.

There are some good points to the bomb, though:

-NOT COMPLETELY USELESS AGAINST TURRETS. It's not the sniping machine it was before, but it may do better than Nitronome against a Puppy. Bullet Hell is still a no-go for a pure bomber, unless you've got superhuman reflexes.

-WE HAVE AN EFFECTIVE OPTION AGAINST GREAVERS. The spread-out damage means they'll be hit over and over, and RSS's Stun will keep Greavers slowed down to boot.

-WE MIGHT HAVE AN OPTION AGAINST VANADUKE. The RSS has Stun, so it might be a no-go, but the new Piercing-damage Splinter Bomb, assuming Vana's Fire Shield doesn't cancel the attack, would be an effective choice. People will probably go for the RSS because its two targets (Beasts and Fiends)

-EASY TROJAN-KILLER! Keep a distance, place your first Sun Shards, circle 180 degrees around the Trojan, place the second, circle 180 degrees after the first Shards explode, place the third, and so on, up till the Trojan is dead. Also knocks away trash. Of course, if you don't like it, we've still got the Shivermist Buster and (insert Piercing weapon here) trick. DBB will suffice.s

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 21:36

The-Rawrcake

Errrm, There are still pots

Errrm,

There are still pots you can throw at switches.

I didn't find the damage to be "pathetic" at all after testing it. When you over exaggerate things, it makes it sound as if you are just simply angered due to some other thing and venting. I found that you can double clip monsters with shards if they are positioned right, doing twice the damage. This happened A LOT with me. Perhaps you are just looking at raw numbers and not so much at mechanics, a hit from the inside ring + 2 hits from outside shards since the inside ring can knock down enemies usually? Is that seriously "pathetic" compared to a nitronome / DBB????

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 22:51

Headbash

Damage - each shard does as

Damage - each shard does as much as one shot from the AP, It's just disheartening to charge up , avoid enemies, watch them move away before the initial explosion (fuse time) then finally get hit with the damage of the lowest damaging 5 star gun in the game. Also in this same amount of time i could of placed two old RSSs and killed them. They just felt more like 4 star weapons from the length of time it takes to kill with them. And to get better damage you have to risk getting hit > I'm usually pretty positive and optimistic but i agree with Doc's post.

Fri, 07/13/2012 - 23:11

The-Rawrcake

"Each shard does as much

"Each shard does as much damage as one shot from the AP"

Seriously, this again?

Quit looking at raw numbers people!

There are so many shards first of all. I think we learned by now that there are more than one shards. This is a no brainer. then, in addition, you can hit the same enemy more than once! I did this constantly. And in addition to being able to hit the same enemy more than once, each shard has an AoE splash (thus why the same enemy is getting hit more than once in the first place).

When I sat there spamming the shard bombs into a group of enemies,

Trust me. They die MUCH faster than an AP or ANY other gun. Guns aren't meant to deal the most damage, and these bombs deal far, far, far more damage than an AP since bombs themselves are AoE oriented.

This is not your single target RSS, this is an AoE oriented bomb folks.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 03:53

Iapnez

Rawrcake. The bomb is no good

Rawrcake. The six new crystal bomb lines are no good in crowd damage because there are bombs with far larger areas that can keep the mobs IN the damage radius for longer. See the DBB and Nitronome. Dark Retribution can be kited around to achieve better damage per second against crowds than these shard bombs. The shards take too long to explode and they don't do enough damage in comparison to other damage per second based bombs. Not only that, but these bombs come with higher risk and smaller damage radii.

Piercing: Just get a DBB
Anything: Just get a Nitronome
Shadow: Get OCH and a Dark Retribution
Elemental: Maybe the Elemental version, but Nitro and DR overshadow that, too.

The new RSS with its stun is useless because of how glitchy stun is. The ISB with shock is slightly useful because of the status.

One thing is for sure. These bombs are definitely a large step back from the AoE DPS category.

Also: A problem I have noticed with these shards is as follows.
Upon hitting some enemies with three or four shards, I hear the telltale "tink" that an invulnerability forcefield was hit, but this is against monsters, like lichen colonies, with no such defense. Are these shards cancelling each other out?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 04:32

Kanoka

For me, the new Shard Bomb are more than adaquate.

In many ways, it's also a personal thing rather than anything else - I truly did not like the Shard Bombs. They were much too powerful for what I took them to be, especially as a "ranged bomb".

The new design does make the Shard Bombs more a bomb than how the originals were, and I don't think that many can disagree with that. They aren't difficult to use, and in many ways are much easier to utilize than the originals. If these were given as a new bomb group, would people disapprove? No. Because really, they simply want to have their OP bombs that can obliterate almost anything in one hit.

*ahem*. Sorry, that was a bit out of place. Anyways, I do think these new shard bombs have great potential. They are what I'd like to say, a paitent bomb. The effects may not be as "immediate" as bomber as used to, but then it means that you get to create new effective strategies to use with them. They would certainly be useful in PVP, especially in escapes, based on your distance from your opponent. In PvE, they already are doing a good job - I agree with Rawrcake, to be honest.

These are a type of bomb that are meant to supplement a bomber, not be all he/she decides to use.

Note: Any criticism on my opinion is fully welcome.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:10

Iapnez

Kanoka, the old shard bomb

Kanoka, the old shard bomb actually had a risk/reward factor because you had to get right up in a monster's face in order to have a chance of an OHKO. The new shard bomb has an actual blast radius, but after that most mobs walk back INTO the center of each bomb and only receive one hit. Each shard hard a very small radius, which makes it highly inappropriate for AoE use because guess what? Other bombs do AoE better. Heck, the Big Angry Bomb does AoE better than this thing!

This bomb has a risk/no reward factor. You have to risk trying to hit monsters into your own shards just to get hits, hitting them away from your shards, or hitting them into yourself. What do you get in return? Damage per second that's far less effective. Nitronome, Dark Briar Barrage, and Dark Retribution are still the best AoE DPS bombs. At least this bomb did one thing that most really couldn't. Single target DPS. Oh. And let's not forget that one charge of an old RSS on CTR max takes about as long as two swings of a DA and three swings of a brandish to complete, fuse and everything (on ASI max for the swords). The brandish, up until parties of three, can three hit kill a zombie, just like the RSS getting 3 shards to hit. It wasn't overpowered and it was a more risky bomb to use then getting three sword hits or just using the "derp" hit and run tactic.

Oh. This bomb will probably be loathed more than the Nitronome in PvE, just like the Pulsar, because of its UNPREDICTABLE knockback. The amount of shards is spawns is unpredictable, whether they hit because of bugs is unpredictable, and where they send a monster with someone spamming it is unpredictable. At least with a nitro you know exactly where the monsters will go flying because you quickly draw a line from the epicenter to the monster. Oh look! He'll be over there. I'll go there to kill him more!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:40

The-Rawrcake

"Rawrcake. The six new

[edit]

Sorry, thought you were talking about a diff. post.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 00:28

Oneerranttwitch

@Kanoka

"really, they simply want to have their OP bombs that can obliterate almost anything in one hit."

let's try an alteration of this sentence.

"really, they simply want to have their brandish/calibur/FOV/DA charge that can obliterate almost anything in one hit."

If any of these sword charges had nerfs proposed (and let's be honest, shards are being nerfed) there would be massive howls of outrage. (Well, maybe not calibur, but I used the Cal line almost exclusively through all of T1 and 2 as well as much of Tier 3, and I would be upset about that.)

If RSS's ability to one-shot Zombies and a handful of other monsters (which is extremely dependent on their attack patterns and the room a bomber has to work with) is overpowered, then many sword charges, that are less dependent on monster behavior, can also one-shot monsters PLUS offer the benefit of a normal combo attack, are also overpowered.

Furthermore, saying shard bombs "obliterate almost anything in one hit" is a gross oversimplification.

(Ionized Salt Bomb is currently considered junk even by dedicated bombers, crippled by an unwieldy charge speed, so my examples will deal with Radiant Sun Shards.)

One-shotting any monster with RSS is extremely dependent on luring the critter to stand right on the bomb and catch 4+ shards. Even when soloing, RSS cannot one-shot Trojans, Slag Guards, Deadnaughts or any kind of turret.

A single bomb can deal 4+ hits to Slimes and Gremlins but as they are neutral to one half the damage and resist the other half, even all 8 shards are barely enough to KO a Mender or Knocker. (RSS performs even worse against lit oilers, which resist Pierce and Elemental.)

It can theoretically one-shot lunging Retrodes, but they must be almost squarely on top of the bomb, so as to receive 6+ hits of effectively neutral damage, and the presence of any teammates in your party will likely raise their hit points out of the range that even such ideal results would instantly defeat them.

The extreme slowness of Lumbers combined with their extra hit points make it impossible to one-shot them with RSS.

Scuttlebots will generally stop moving and attempt to shoot you if you get close enough to plant a bomb directly in their path.

One-shotting Devilites, Spookats and Greavers is theoretically possible, but a dicey proposition due to their movement speeds and projectile attacks, as well as the extra vulnerability a bomber suffers approaching these monsters with a charged bomb.

It can potentially one-shot a Wolver, but frankly, a toothpick is far simpler and more efficient.

Now, as I see it, the only way a weapon's strength can "ruin" anyone else's enjoyment of the game is if it is so overwhelmingly powerful that using anything else is foolish. Dark Retribution was clearly one of these - it annihilated any PvE target that was not Shadow-resistant, and was rightfully nerfed.

(When compared to other weapon types, swords get a pass on this, apparently for the reason that Swords Should Just Be Better. Everyone Should Use Swords.)

If people still cry RSS=OP, it'd be far simpler to make it a physical object like keys, totems, statues etc (no more massive multi-hits because the target blundered on top of the bomb) and reduce the shard range, by say half, so guns have a clear advantage (guns already have a superior rate of fire and DPS against distant targets, but whatever. If it really bugs the devs and some players that much, fine.)

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 00:21

Roarr

A new way to suck energy out of players

People like to call it one shot zombies, but in reality how many zombies u can really take out with one rss? Can you do these one shots in a group of 4 players?

The maximum number of zombies i have ever taken out with one rss charge solo was 3, the chances to do "one shot" in a group of 4 is really slim.

The new range and fuse time is really pathetic, but the damage isn't that bad.

These "new improvements" is a nerf to the RSS's range, and having to create more bombs is a way to suck more energy out of the players because the current rss and isb users will get a star boost, but for those who get it later will receive an 800 energy penalty. For those who would still want to use the elemental shards will have to create a brand new bomb to do so, and I really doubt it is really necessary to have to create a new 4* version because the blast radius is the same, fuse time is the same, but damage nerfed down.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 00:47

#10

Oneerranttwitch

The one thing that RSS really

The one thing that old RSS excels at is vaporizing zombies. I can't dispute that. If it didn't do that so tremendously well, I would not care about the mechanic change. (Well I might be mad that OOO tried to improve a weapon line and made it *worse*, a la Winmillion, but anyway.)

My current fsc loadout is Undead Med RSS/Vali/Shiver with Perfect Mask and Vol. Demo Suit, and it *demolishes* zombies.

(Having used this loadout extensively, the argument that old shard bombs make guns redundant makes no sense to me. I would never consider removing Valiance - even with the range and specialized damage of RSS's shards, Vali's rate of fire/DPS at range is still superior and is excellent at pushing monsters around, while old RSS has no knockback whatsoever. The ability to quickly draw aggro and take opportunity shots in a fraction of a second is also unmatched by shards.)

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 13:07

#11

The-Rawrcake

I said it made gunners and

I said it made gunners and guns themselves less useful, not useless.

They don't want you to use RSS to OHKO zombies, it truly wasn't intended to obliterate forward swiping monsters.

Also, as the developers said, a bomb that works like the RSS in a way that it requires technique and thought to use is not apart of the true bomber's arsenal: as I put it, "no mad bomber should ever worry about precision or angles." Only crowd control and killing groups of enemies, as that is what I bring bombers into my group for.

Now, in their current state, new shard bombs may not be that great. Keep in mind that the developers can balance and buff these bombs before they go through to the game.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 17:12

#12

Serell

...

"Also, as the developers said, a bomb that works like the RSS in a way that it requires technique and thought to use is not apart of the true bomber's arsenal"
Are you saying bombers aren't supposed to use skill? .-.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 19:31

#13

Akvar

As Malsvir pointed out these

As Malsvir pointed out these are now a risk/no reward bomb. We have traded a long range high damage bomb for a short range sub optimal bomb. As I stated elsewhere, in the FSC with max dmg the new 5* elemental bomb with the center blast and a single hit from the shards is only doing 15 more damage than a single shard of the current 4* split damage RSS. I have no complaints about the range issue and mechanics of these new bombs if they can change two things; reduce the fuse time of the second blast and increase the damage of the shards.

Sat, 07/21/2012 - 19:50

#14

The-Rawrcake

Wouldn't it also help if they

Wouldn't it also help if they reduced the charge time of the new shard bombs as well?

I heard that the charge time is actually a bit slower than the old shard bombs, so a faster charge would make it easier to stack these things (since more stacking means it is more capable of doing something good in Lockdown).

Search

Doctorspacebar's feedback on the Shard Bombs (AKA everything that the devs got horribly wrong)