I'm making another thread, because I have effectively derailed my other thread and I would like to post additional ideas and rationale. This thread will of course, be about combat mechanics and how to better balance players in terms of fighting, as well as add some tactical depth to combat.
The game right now doesn't really require much active control. Every button has a set function and that function is pretty much unalterable. The attack button does a combo or it charges, the shield button blocks, the strafe button locks your facing in place. That's it.
It lacks a sens of technical depth, which will be something sought after by more hardcore players. A group of people Spiral Knights is evidently trying to attract.
My main personal gripe with the current system is that there is no depth in combat, swing, charge, block. If you use bombs, just charge and block. Obviously this isn't counting moving, but you see my point. Players aren't given much of a tactical choice. There's no risk = reward situations. If you rush in with a sword, you get chewed on like Ruff's Bone, if you use a gun, you save pressing the button for your shield and if you use bombs, your arms get sore from all the holding them straight up above your enormous head.
I like the game, I don't think it's bad. As it is now I'm sure people will enjoy playing it. But if you add that level of combat depth, you could make a good game even better.
I'm going to address the issues in a random order.
Vials
These, right now, feel very... Useless.
There's so many statuses but without being able to apply them consistently and assuredly, they pale in comparison to the status support of equipment.
Not to mention that some statuses are more desirable than others for their effects.
There are a few things that can be done to change this.
Multi-application statuses:
Sleep + Curse = Nightmare, a damaging status that leaves the afflicted immobile while taking damage from cursed night terrors.
Shock + Stun = Paralysis, a full body shutdown of movement, being paralyzed is the equivalent of being a sitting duck.
Shock + Poison = Toxic Shock, a catatonic state in which the afflicted takes 50% more damage. You still cannot heal damage and deal very little damage to enemies while under this effect.
Fire and freeze don't need a two stage effect, since they are already heavily used for their effects.
I think these two stage statuses could generate quite a lot of use for the less used statuses currently offered up. It instantly levels the playing field for groups who are having a hard time with monsters, makes the vials more desirable and promotes team co-ordination.
It would also allow for certain combinations of monsters to become quite a handful under the right circumstances.
Two stage statuses would work like this:
If you get two statuses inflicted upon you, the two stage icon will merge the two statuses and add the number together. When under the effects of a two stage status, you cannot be inflicted with another status. if you survive two stage status, you become completely immune to statuses for the next 30 seconds as well.
To prevent repeat spamming.
Change vial functions:
Vials need to be more reliable in the way the hit and inflict statuses.
A player can hold them above their head and while they do, the spot on the ground and the area it will effect is painted on the ground for you to see.
This would ensure people don't miss a vial and waste their only chance for survival.
When they hit, a small puff of chemical gases should float in the air inside the radius, Super Vials would have a larger area and a longer lasting area of effect.
Side note, but vials should be 3D objects, held like weapons. I just don't like these 2D things I'm expected to imagine are vials full of chemical liquid when it's so simple for you to just add 3D objects.
Bombs
I talked about this in the other thread, but I'll do it again, I don't think I was very concise in my explanation of this idea earlier.
Bombs need to appliable at any time. They're an immensely useful tool, lost in a sea of expense and tedious attack patterns, that drives away potential users to other weapons, like guns. They're just not working out the way they are.
So, as a fix, I propose they use up their own slot.
A bomb slot, with their own button, that you can activate whenever you want to use a bomb.
This will reduce the number of slots for other weapons down to three, however I don't think this is detrimental to gameplay, considering that most games (including FPS) only allow a maximum of three weapons at a time, once you go up 4 or more, you need hotkeys for weapon selection instead of a previous/next weapon system, because it's just too fiddly to switch around that way.
Hitting the button activates them like a vial, they're in your hand, you can choose to charge it or just drop it. Running out of bombs or hitting switch weapon (either of them) will change you back to the last weapon you were using.
Bombs can't be dropped infinitely, obviously. Only a certain number for each type can be out at any given time.
Tougher, higher quality and highly abusable bombs, would be given one use before having to wait to use it again.
Bombs in the middle, like blast bombs and proto bombs, would get 2~3 uses before switching you back to your normal weapon.
The final type are proximity mines, these are traps, basically, that you can set up fpr unsuspecting prey to wander into. Or perhaps they're just racquets to help you juggle troublesome monsters.
They get 4~5 uses before a recharge.
Bombs work like this:
You get an alloted amount for each drop, so you get 3 for a blast bomb. Dropping one would mean if you need another two in a hurry, they're in stock. If you drop all 3, it means you need to wait 30~60 seconds before you can drop bombs again.
Proximity mines would work the same way, except once all 5 are deployed, the countdown starts. If all bombs aren't detonated by countdown end, they expire (disappear in a puff of smoke).
Charging bombs reduces the recharge countdown by the charge time.
So if you have lots of charge reducing equipment, you'll still be waiting a long time to drop bombs again, if you have lots of recharge reducing equipment, your charge time will be enormous.
Bomb deployment:
It would change to be in line with vials. Throwing a bomb while standing still would achieve a smaller distance, but if you move backwards while holding the bomb, it gets thrown quite a bit in front of you (depending on the bomb), allowing you to lay them down from a distance if you attract a large group of unwanted attention.
Or to just lay down support for your friends if they're in a pickle.
Swords
Swords really just need to be, not so much better, but more versatile. If you pick a fast sword, you get beat down, if you pick a heavy sword, you knock everything about but get interrupted way too easy once the next wave spawns.
Adding some additional moves, that allow you to start or end a combo differently will not only change how the swords play, but also increase how much more useful they are.
Some examples:
Backhander: In the middle of a combo, if you turn around and attack, you will do a heavy smash that knocks away monsters attacking your rear. It leaves you vulnerable for a moment afterwards, but for certain monsters it can become quite handy. Faster weapons may be able to combo after doing this attack.
Fray entry: Moving forward before your attack will let you rush forward, doing a hit from a fairly long distance (depending on the weapon). Attacking during the rush forward will end it sooner.
Charge cancel: If you do a charge attack and you're about to miss, pressing the attack button again will cancel your attack and return part of your charge if you hold it down. For slow, slow weapons like the Khorovod, this will be an invaluable tool.
Counter-hit: If you attack a monster at the last possible moment before they attack, it deals more damage on the first hit. It also increases the chance of inflicting any particular status. This only works with swords.
Angle of attack: If you attack a monster from the side or from the rear, it does more damage. Again, this only works with swords.
I think that these changes will allow for swords to become much more useful, in any combat situation. Allowing for a higher return for your risk.
Because as it stands now, swords don't have an advantage over guns, except for damage. Range is very much, the best advantage you can have.
Guns
Guns right now, are often a main weapon of those who play this game. Bombs and Swords are just too difficult or dangerous to use in most cases. Guns are also extraordinarily powerful, in the sense that they can deal so much damage without taking a single hit. However, reducing the power of guns was not the solution, so much as it was incentivising the other alternatives to guns.
I would much prefer to see guns return to their original power and the other changes happen to the weapons so that all weapons are used equally, as opposed to being forced to use one weapon and one weapon only because of equipment constraints. It should come down to preference instead of weapon strength in the end.
That said, there are a number of changes that could make weaponry more fluid in combat.
Switch combos: If you switch during a combo, the next attack will come from the weapon you're switching to.
From sword to guns: The sword would get put away and the gun will shoot out a half charge attack, which deals only slightly more than normal damage. It counts as one shot in the gun combo.
From gun to sword: The gun gets put away (not on the last shot) and the sword gets pulled out, doing move that knocks away all nearby monsters and deals normal damage. It adds +1 to the attack combo, turning 2 hit combos into 3 hit ones, etc.
From sword to sword/gun to gun: Both weapons are out at the same time and fire/attack, akin to dual wielding. It's a quick attack, which the next attack does the attack of the next weapon and not a dual attack.
The switch combos will allow for people to change to weapons they want during combat, instead of having to finish attacks or combos to change, you can change with the combat situations.
Some weapons are better suited to switch combos than others, some coupled together might create a perfect switch combo. It would promote experimentation with weapons and equipment and give players more of a reason to get more weapon slots.
General Equipment
The major problem I have noticed with the game right now is equipment and equipment progression have absolutely no correlation.
Here's a few minor changes that armour could undergo.
Specialisation: 0 and 1 star armours should have protection from everything, but at a very limited level. Upgrading your equipment or getting higher star gear should offer you less protection from other damage but offer more in specific damage.
This would make upper levels a little easier for newer players so they can craft the better armour that gives them the protection from the things they are having trouble with.
Benchmark breaks: Pretty simple, but adding some set numbers there for players to build their gear around in the dungeons would also make future additions to armour easier down the line.
These numbers are the breaks for maximum damage reduction in all three tiers:
Tier 1: 150
Tier 2: 300
Tier 3: 500
They give people a number to aim for when mixing up equipment sets and pair up nicely with the specialisation of damage resistances.
These are just example numbers really, based on what I've seen from equipment.
Trinkets
As they are right now, they're not so much pointless as they are... Not effectively utilised.
You're basically paying all that energy and crowns for a direct upgrade to your abilities, which is often just two of the exact same trinket in either slot.
It makes no sense giving players two slots when it's plainly obvious they're just going to double up with two of the same trinket. It creates an enormous amount of balance issues in the realm of huge charge reduction bonuses for certain weapons.
The solution isn't exactly an easy one to implement, but it's a tie in of a lot of ideas that most people would probably appreciate.
The first step, don't make trinkets inventory items, give them their own window.
The second step, take trinkets out of shops and monster drop tables.
The third step, use trinkets as an achievement reward system so that players get actual physical rewards for completing tasks, that offer a wide range of awesome effects.
Trinkets wouldn't so much be just slots to stick something in, but something you earn with your time and effort within the game.
Since you could also only get one of each trinket, it means that people can't just double their effects by paying a little extra, they would need to earn those enormous bonuses.
Some examples:
Fossilizer: Kill 100 skeletons.
It offers a low damage bonus to undead.
Flame Impaired: Be set on fire 1,000 times.
It offers a huge resistance to fire.
Pound Puppy: Ruthlessly murder a Love Puppy.
It offers up a +2 Health bonus.
Standard fare, really.
They would all have unique art inside the trinket window and when equipped, they would be visible and offer different effects.
From little flying snipes that chase you about to medals pinned on your chest, or glowing auras at your feet.
The general idea is that it's an item that people can only acquire with skill, as opposed to just buying lots of energy and trading it for the necessary materials, or just the item itself.
As well as level out the fact it will cost you money to equip them.
Anyway, that's it.
I always say I'm going to edit these posts later but I just end up making another post, so I'm probably just going to make another post if I need to add anything to this.
I must say I haven't yet experienced the problem you have with guns.. If you wield a gun appropriate for the depth you're using it, then the damage output seems reasonable to me? You're able to shoot at things from a distance afterall. Being able to kill something in around 3 shots would make it way too easy I believe, so I don't really mind having to shoot up to 5-6 times if in return I get that safe distance between me and my enemy.
The more in-depth combat styles do seem fun, but personally I wouldn't want to have it overdone too much. I like part of the simplicity. I see it as getting a bunch of basic moves which you can use and combine in the ways you prefer to reach your goal. So I wouldn't like seeing too many "pre-programmed" combat tactics here. I'm not saying there aren't a few welcome though!
For how to use bombs, yes! I was thinking of something similar regarding how to make them better/more liked. Mostly I thought of Bomberman here :P You get a series of bombs you can put down, and then you have to wait till the previous ones exploded before you can put down new ones. The waiting time before being able to put new bombs down is better how you proposed it though, with a set time that's possibly affected by gear. Also I was thinking about charging bombs. I don't know how it used to be in the previous Preview Event, but a choice between charging and not charging bombs would be a good thing I believe. Of course this should majorly affect the damage output or status effects the bombs does then.
Vials-wise.. Being able to throw it at a more fixed position rather than have it flying straight through the sky would indeed be a lot nicer I think. It should come with a fixed range then though. The question then is, do you still control the shooting part with your mouse or would it be strictly in the direction that your knight is facing?
I'm not quite sure about mixing statuses up.. They only last a few seconds afterall, so being able to hit status A and then status B successfully within approximately 5-8 seconds could get tricky?
For the last thing in this reply, I really like the trinkets idea you put forward. I share your opinion that having them as a reward is much better than as a "purchasable upgrade". As for how you see it, would a player still be required to purchase a "trinket slot" with energy before he can use it? If yes, then the reward might not seem very rewarding because it comes attached with an energy cost in case you wish to use it? If not, then the devs might not like seeing an energy sink going away?