Spiral Knights - Gun Puppy Helm line

Gun Puppy Helm line

9 replies [Last post]

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 20:37

Gametrekker

There are plenty of helmets and armors based on enemies found in the Clockworks. Why are there none based on Gun Puppies? Come on, everyone loves Gun Puppies, right? Also the Love Puppy Disguise exists, so there's already a model that can be used.

These helmets (yes, only helmets and not armors) are designed to be very unorthodox in terms of abilities. Spiral Knights could use some more variety in its defensive items! Anyway, they're primarily for pure gunslingers, which makes sense considering the enemy they're based on.

(Note on values for resistances: I'm using what appear to be the standard values on defensive items. The Spiral Plate Helm line is a good reference for both resistances and weaknesses. For examples, a 3* weakness is equal to the Boosted Plate Helm's weakness to Sleep, and a 4* resistance is equal to the Heavy Plate Helm's resistance to Stun.)

Gun Puppy Helm
3*
Possible description: Headgear resembling a Gun Puppy! It's extremely cumbersome to wear and the technology is far from perfect, but knights looking for a massive boost in firepower need look no further.
Defenses: Same as the Angelic Helm but with shadow changed to piercing.
Resistances: 3* weakness to Stun.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Movement Speed Decreased medium + Handgun Damage Bonus very high

After this, the line splits into either two or three different choices.

Rocket Puppy Helm
4*
Possible description: A dangerous helm intended only for knights with a dangerous affinity for projectiles.
Defenses: Same as the Seraphic Helm but with shadow changed to piercing.
Resistances: 4* weakness to Stun.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Movement Speed Decreased medium + Handgun Damage Bonus very high

Roarmulus Helm
5*
Alchemy cost includes one Level 10 Rocket Puppy Helm and one Spark of Life.
Possible description: This marvel of reverse engineered gremlin technology bears all the upgrades possessed by the Roarmulus Twins in comparison to Gun Puppies, minus the size and firepower. So that leaves... defense and speed. These are still very useful!
Defenses: Same as the Valkyrie Helm but with shadow changed to piercing.
Resistances: 5* weakness to Stun, 5* resistance to Shock.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Movement Speed Decreased low + Handgun Damage Bonus very high

Red Rover Helm
4*
Possible description: This helm is infamous among knights due to how uncomfortable it is to wear. Heavy and hot, at least it provides very heavy ordinance and a resistance to getting even hotter.
Defenses: Same as the Seraphic Helm but with shadow changed to elemental.
Resistances: 4* weakness to Stun, 3* resistance to Fire.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Movement Speed Decreased medium + Handgun Damage Bonus very high

Red Roarmulus Helm
5*
Alchemy cost includes one Level 10 Red Rover Helm and one Gremlonium.
Possible description: Behold the Crimson Order's most terrifying war machine! Now in knight-sized form.
Defenses: Same as the Chaos Cowl.
Resistances: 5* weakness to Stun, 4* resistance to Shock, 4* resistance to Fire.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Movement Speed Decreased low + Handgun Damage Bonus very high

The last possible choice when the line splits would probably require a different base model. The one used for the Chroma Mask line would hopefully work.

Howlitzer Helm
4*
Resembles a T1 Howlitzer with cracks in the skull.
Possible description: This creepy canine cranium cracked considerably when crafted, creating concerns connected to its capacity for cushioning critical concussions in combat. Basically, the bones didn't properly fit the frame of the Gun Puppy Helm. But they are much lighter than metal.
Defenses: Same as the Seraphic Helm.
Resistances: 5* weakness to Stun.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Handgun Damage Bonus high

Mercurial Howlitzer Helm
5*
Resembles a T3 Howlitzer with extra effects similar to those on the Dread Skelly Mask, specifically glowing eyes (on the helm's eyes, not the knight's) and ghostly aura.
Alchemy cost includes one Level 10 Howlitzer Helm and one Reaper Rib.
Possible description: This savage skull will send you speeding at your opponents like a Howlitzer set loose! Also you'll shoot powerful bullets instead of exploding. This is an important distinction.
Defenses: Same as the Valkyrie Helm.
Resistances: 5* weakness to Stun, 3* weakness to Shock, 3* weakness to Fire, 3* weakness to Poison, 3* weakness to Freeze.
Abilities: Attack Speed Decreased low + Movement Speed Increased low + Handgun Damage Bonus high

This turned out to be a very difficult line to try to balance. The massive handgun damage bonus (and MSI on the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm) had to be properly balanced out. So these helms ended up with a similarly massive number of drawbacks, such as ASD, MSD, status weaknesses and minimal defenses.

Suggesting a set of new items is a bit of an experiment on my part and I'm very interested in feedback about all this! Would anyone actually use these helms if they were put in the game? Do any seem overpowered or underpowered? Do the "possible descriptions" entertain? Do you have any suggestions? Let's make this a discussion. :)

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 21:08

Dukeplatypus

They already exist and will

They already exist and will never be anything beyond costume if they ever implement it. You can find them in the game files along with Trojan, Gremlin, and Zombie heads. This also horribly balanced with a stupidly high damage bonus offset by an absolutely miniscule speed reduction.

Mon, 08/06/2012 - 23:30

Hmmnm

I LIKE IT

Sounds cool! Status nerfs much larger than its equivalent in status buffs, so a med walk speed nerf can be painful.

Howlitzer is much stronger than the rest though. Give it the same stat weaknesses as M Howlitzer.
Movement speed increase low is kind of useless on M howlitzer. I would suggest finding a name for it other than mercurial.

You also forgot about those slime turrets! You should name the piercing resistant armor after them.

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 04:17

Aureate

Processing Thoughts of You Always

dat damage bonus
These helmets are all horribly overpowered. A low MSD and ASD is not sufficient to offset a damage increase of Very High. Stun is easily avoidable enough in PvE for the negative resistance to be ignored.
This needs rebalancing. As it stands, - 1

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 04:29

Floipd

I don't know

It seems really wonky. The attack bonus seems really high, while i'd rather have a MSI and/or ASI if i were a gunner.

Also, why is the Mercurial Howlitzer (think of the mercurial mail > shock) having problems with electricity? Shouldn't it have shock resistance if it's Mercurial?

And what is it with every gunner armor that it HAS to have al kind of drawbacks with statusses etc.?

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 11:07

Derpules

@Floipd

"The attack bonus seems really high, while i'd rather have a MSI and/or ASI if i were a gunner."

Probably not. Gun damage is really the most important stat. Many guns don't benefit much from ASI, and anyway there's SSB and Justifier for that.

This helm + Shadowsun = max gun damage. Way OP.

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 11:47

Waffleconecake

nope.avi to this my good gent

ok this is my propitiation to make it fair. what do all turrets the thing love puppy i based on have in common? projectiles, so instead of it being some op gun booster have it be a projectile dmg resit, it would be fitting, i don't have the full states down but the hole gimic of the set should be a SMALL gun dmg boost like at most for 5 star medium and to get it in the armors latter levels around 7/10 area and to be resist to projectile dmg. MAYBE a small attack rate boost as well for the 5 star if u want :/.

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 16:43

Gametrekker

Responses!

Hmmnm: I didn't forget about Polyps; it just wouldn't make sense to make helms based on them, partly because the Jelly helms already in existence are round like Polyps, so there'd be no good way to distinguish them. As for your concern about the Howlitzer Helm, what you're saying makes a lot of sense! I'll factor it in.

Floipd: Mercurial doesn't have to equal Shock resistant. At least, it seems unnecessary to me for all MSI items to have Shock resistance.

Waffleconecake: Bonus defense against projectiles would be very interesting. Though that'd change the whole concept behind this helm line. I'm interested to see if the concept I presented here stands a chance of being balanced.

Everyone else: Okay it seems clear that this line is overpowered. I'll share some detail about my dilemma here. On paper this line seems pretty balanced. Let's compare it to normal gunner armors. Actually let's compare some specific examples: the Roarmulus Helm and the Justifier Hat. The Justifier Hat has one medium buff to guns. The Roarmulus Helm has a very high buff to guns, but has four drawbacks in comparison: ASD, MSD, lower health and a status weakness. Okay actually I'm starting to see how this line is broken. I mean, obviously not all buffs and nerfs are created equal, but I needed more data (so to speak) on the value of damage bonuses in comparison to ASI.

So what can be done? Simply lowering the damage bonus by one point might work, but not for the Howlitzer Helm and Mercurial Howlitzer Helm, since it would give them the exact same bonus as the Shadowsun Stetson and I don't think the MSI would be worth the ASD in comparison. Increasing the ASD on all the helms also might work, but it depends on how much of a difference that would actually make, and it might clash with the speed aspect of the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm. What do you all think?

Possibility 1: Replace all instances of Handgun Damage Bonus very high with Handgun Damage Bonus high. Replace the Howlitzer Helm's Handgun Damage Bonus high with Handgun Attack Speed Increased medium. Replace the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm's Handgun Damage Bonus high with Handgun Attack Speed Increased high. (Also change the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm's description to reflect this.)

Possibility 2: Replace all instances of Attack Speed Decreased low with Attack Speed Decreased medium. Add the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm's 3* status weaknesses to the Howlitzer Helm.

Hmm, maybe I should have put this thread in General Discussion or The Arsenal if it was going to be about figuring out how to balance this stuff.

EDIT: It has come to my attention that bonuses in Spiral Knights are exponential, not additive. Apparently I was working with misinformation on top of lack of information. Great. So Possibility 2 is probably no good. Actually there are more reasons why it's probably no good, like how the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm would still be good for Brandish line users due to it not so much affecting charge attacks.

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 17:24

Canine-Vladmir

My response.

I never read what people reply to or if they reply to something i wrote but i always skim through big angry walls of informative text forum topic post. just being honest, i didnt read after Howlitzer post :/ but from what i read I loved this new approach to gunners. Of course if you nerf the Damage output to High. Gunners are fast around their toes, shooting at stuff at close range, long range with WASD buttons (i think thats what gunners use, thats what I use.)
but this approach literally makes them into moving gun puppies! making them slow makes them a strong defense. and sure Trollaris and autoguns are good support guns but it becomes better with this idea. so for making a support class, +1. for making Epic names +1 for stating that it should be easy to make with gun puppy model +1
so +1 to you!

im 90% not gonna check this topic again so i wouldnt suggest replying back :}

Tue, 08/07/2012 - 18:40

Waffleconecake

to game with dirty love <~3

i think u should reread the first possiblty change, actualy il copy paste it and put " around the lolzy part.
"""""Replace all instances of Handgun Damage Bonus very high with Handgun Damage Bonus high."""" Replace the Howlitzer Helm's Handgun Damage Bonus high with Handgun Attack Speed Increased medium. Replace the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm's Handgun Damage Bonus high with Handgun Attack Speed Increased high. (Also change the Mercurial Howlitzer Helm's description to reflect this.)

also the only way this will have a chance to be in game is if you try to work my suggestion in, because fire rate increase and any dmg increase above meduim can get very out of hand very fast.

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Gun Puppy Helm line