Spiral Knights - Dat Hate

Dat Hate

22 replies [Last post]

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 02:31

Jes-Turr

I don't visit the forums very often, even less now that my desire to accessorize my proto armor has subsided, yet every time I do, I see piles upon piles of community generated hate directed at OOO. Why? A lot of people have created the image that OOO is some blood-sucking money-eating mass of evil that introduce things only to make their wallets fatter than lichens. (Got dat SK reference in there. /success) While, yes, they might be right, I'd still like to believe OOO is managing the game with the players interest at heart. Many people overlook the fact that making a game like Spiral Knights ISN'T CHEAP. The money you spend on CE isn't being funneled into Nicks new Ferrari (right, Nick? ;_;) but is helping the game improve and develop.
Another issue that's causing some hate is the fact that, according to many players out there, OOO just doesn't know when, where, and how to buff/nerf things. Let's remember, guys, this is -their- game. They are the ones who have the master plan in mind. I'm not an expert on bombs, but I'm assuming the patch came about because OOO had intended the shard bomb to fill a certain niche in the bomber arsenal, and when they saw it wasn't doing it's job as well as it could (whatever that may be) they changed it. Also, we can't wait around and have OOO fix all our stuff. Yes, while I'd like my WHB's charge to have a bigger hit box or have my Neutralizer not look like a really bad Polaris, it's up to us as the players to work around these. Waiting for OOO to answer all of our cries is not going to make the game any interesting, no. The way the game develops and grows is 50% OOO Patches and updates and 50% Players in the clockworks discovering new technology.

My last point in this great wall of text is that NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PLAY. A lot of people think that, because they play the game, everything OOO does has to cater to them, and that they're suddenly in the spotlight. No, you're a passenger witnessing Spiral Knights develop, and if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to log on only to be disappointed. OOO has a game to run and your hate isn't going to make things any better.

If you're reading this, OOO, I'd like you to know that with all the " >:^U Thr3e R1nGz WenTz mah Cr3deet Cahrd" and "Dey Jus' Wan mah muneys" lies a massive community that, day in and day out, appreciate all you've done for us. I can't wait to see what the future of SK is ^_^

(keep in mind that this is personal speculation, in no way fact, and I could be horribly wrong, and look like a total fool in front of a smirking evil Nick in his spinny chair, stroking his black cat whilst counting his money and laughing at my post. But I tend to be an optimist on the internet :D)

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 02:51

Ndognine

/wave Jester

I think the biggest issue people have is the lack of new content, OR the lack of new servers (Asia). However with the new danger missions I'm not sure how true that can be anymore. But, after a while of just promo after promo after promo after promo, you start to wonder...

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 03:00

Pookycakes

Some are just so passionate

Some are just so passionate about it that they take things way too seriously, while others are frustrated by the lack of new big content (gimme the core *cries*) (and guild updates too *pouts*), but still, most of us still wub OOO and especially the game itself as SK is pretty unique

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 03:05

Ranzoh

That's cause you have to.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 07:54

Doctorspacebar

Way too seriously, huh?

Pookycakes, do you have a Final Flourish? Suppose it got turned into a Leviathan Blade clone with the swing speed of a Sudaruska and split Normal/Piercing damage. Would you be mad? Most likely.

This is basically what happened with the shard bombs. Despite a public outcry for improving the new bombs both on the Testing Feedback forum and other areas like Suggestions and General Discussion, the developers threw in the new Shard Bombs in... without even changing them from the crappy form they were in on the Test Server! The Shard Bombs do not fill a niche, they just do something other bombs already do better (read: Dark Briar Barrage, Dark Retribution, Nitronome).

Some of us are raging. It may not be helping. But some of us are actually providing legitimate feedback, despite a vocal minority expressing its support for the RSS change.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 10:57

Pookycakes

Well yeah i even got several,

Well yeah i even got several, and i wouldn't mind if they ended up tossing me twice the value of each of them as a compensation for some changes. This is the first time ever that this has happened for a weapon rebalancing and I'm honestly surprised to see people complaining about that.

A RSS roughly takes 900 CE to craft and the 3 UV ticket they gifted people can sell for 175 to 200k cr, which is about 2,000 to 2,500 CE i think. (Too lazy to calculator but i think that's close.)

It basically means they would pay me back for my old swords and offer me enough money to craft a new toy for free... I would take that deal any single day.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 11:01

Jes-Turr

/Hi Ndognine

@Doctorspacebar
"Our intention with the shard line was to have them ‘spread out’ and hit multiple targets at once. So, we’re making this change because we want all bombs to feel like bombs- weapons that when used, create areas of damage on the playfield and feel like they pack a punch."

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 11:27

Dorael

Forums

Generally speaking, the forums represents a tiny portion of a game's population. The portion it represents is also its most whiny and loud mouthed person. If you think this is bad you should check out really popular games, like..., well, most any MMO when it's near its peak.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:37

Orangeo

I don't always visit the fourms, but when I do...

"I don't visit the forums very often, even less now that my desire to accessorize my proto armor has subsided, yet every time I do, I see piles upon piles of community generated hate directed at OOO. Why? A lot of people have created the image that OOO is some blood-sucking money-eating mass of evil that introduce things only to make their wallets fatter than lichens. "

Who's fault is that? OOO's, obviously.

"Another issue that's causing some hate is the fact that, according to many players out there, OOO just doesn't know when, where, and how to buff/nerf things. Let's remember, guys, this is -their- game. "

We're the ones who pay for it. We're the customers. Let's remember, guys, this is -our- money.

" The way the game develops and grows is 50% OOO Patches and updates and 50% Players in the clockworks discovering new technology."

Random statistics, yay! This is obviously proven and factual!

"Generally speaking, the forums represents a tiny portion of a game's population. The portion it represents is also its most whiny and loud mouthed person.

It also represents the players that are educated enough/old enough to spend money. I'm sure most of the paying players use the forums.

Bottom line, OOO doesn't try to balance weapons and currency sinks, in spite of the money players pay. Key words "DOSEN'T TRY". Players want more crown sinks? Tadah, OOO makes sure PVP doesn't even really sink crowns by making krogmo boosters! Players want flourish lines nerfed? Nah, OOO is going to nerf a popular 4* bomb, instead of changing the completely unused irontech line! Then they spend even more time making useless things like the supply depo. Now, does anyone think the supply depot isn't an obvious scam? I'm sure plenty-a-noob have fallen for it, considering it is advertised on the mission menu. Goodbye CE.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 12:46

Dorael

@Orangeo

"It also represents the players that are educated enough/old enough to spend money. I'm sure most of the paying players use the forums."

There is nothing that would even remotely back up, prove, or even imply this to be true. Please don't tout your opinion as fact.

No matter which way you cut it, there are way, way, way more people who play a game than read a forum. There are also generally way more people who read than post. To say that the such a small sample size of those that post represents anything about the player-base beyond being the most vocal is wildly inaccurate. What you argue is based on huge assumptions, please don't treat them as fact.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 16:00

#10

Tersakaff

The forums usually reflect a bad part of a community.

"Hmm... I don't like this! Better go to the forums."

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 16:17

#11

Fehzor

I love this thread. No matter what OOO throws out, this thread will pop up again. In the middle of "petition for the shard bombs!" or "Petition for the shadow keys!" or "Petition for the 150K we got cheated out of!" will always come a "I kind of like the game...".

And I don't really think that the forums reflect a bad part of the community. I know tons of people who don't post, but complain about stuff. Some have quit, others still play. And then there are threads like this, and people that support that kind of thing. I'd say that as a whole, the forums are at least somewhat an accurate representation of the community.

@Dorael's assement of "It also represents the part of the community that are educated/old enough to spend money. Etc. etc."

It does however represent the most active part of the community, being those who take part in discussions about the game. A lot of people in game get their information from the forum goers, whom are tied into the game quite a bit. I can usually find many forum goers in havens.... the forums represent a much larger portion of the community than you think. (but still not nearly all of it)

Also remember my point about valuing players as part of the community that I made a while back, which I'm certain you can find using the search function and some combination of "Fehzor community portion paying youtube".

One last point for Dorael-

"The portion it represents is also its most whiny and loud mouthed person."

That is all.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 19:03

#12

Orangeo

"To say that the such a small

"There is nothing that would even remotely back up, prove, or even imply this to be true. Please don't tout your opinion as fact."
"To say that the such a small sample size of those that post represents anything about the player-base beyond being the most vocal is wildly inaccurate. What you argue is based on huge assumptions, please don't treat them as fact"

What makes you assume that people on the fourms are different than in game players anyway? That's just arbitrary discrimination. Yet here you think I've got nothing to back up what I've said.
If you look around the fourms, the ratio of paying players to free players is about 50-50. That's why you see people arguing about CE from both prespectives, etc. Now look at the game. Beggers, everywhere. Do you see them on the fourms? Nope. Look at the youtube video makers. They usualy have some absurd amount of crowns and CE. People who use the fourms generaly play the game more and are more likely to be paying players. That's all certianly suggesting that the density of paying players is higher in the fourms. Now, what's backing up you're statements? Not much. Lastly, I'd change "whiny and loud mouthed" to "critical and articulate".

"The forums usually reflect a bad part of a community."
They reflect a smart part of the community. The people who want fix things, as opposed to just letitng obvious problems ferment. Like crappy sun shards, lame green armor packs, almost infinite CE sinks, practicaly no crown sinks, and no weapon balancing.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 21:39

#13

Virtuewis

These are bad arguments

You guys/gals can generalize all you want about the playerbase and the forum goers, but you have no real way to actually quantify any of it. It is all based on your hunch. I'm not saying you're all wrong, but you can't assume you're right either. A discussion is not always about one person is right and the other is wrong. Actually a healthy, intelligent discussion ought to be way more constructive than what goes on most of the time in an online forum haha.

Anyway, yeah. It's great that there's a game that's so good that people have such strong opinions about it. That doesn't mean that they have any idea what they're really talking about when they make a suggestion. Many of the veteran players have great suggestions, but perhaps there are x-factors in the way that causes OOO to hesitate or resist implementing them. The bottom line IMHO, is that the game is great. If it wasn't, why the heck would so many people even be on this forum? Why would anyone bother talking about this game at all, let alone play it?

We live in a ridiculous consumer culture where the "customer is always right". Obviously that is a fallacy in the first place. It should be more like : "the customer THINKS they are always right". If the customer is led to believe they are right, then your business is doing a good job, lol. Now, as far as the complaining, my guess is that it is just a cultural tradition (especially in online games). Sensationalism rules the day, in ALL forms of media, so a video game forum is no different. What's sensational about saying: OMG THIS IS A GOOD GAME, GOOD JOB OOO! ? Nothing. It is way more "interesting" by media standards to go for the throat and say something extreme. I'm pretty sure it's nothing more than that.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 23:21

#14

Jes-Turr

It's not that I know that

It's not that I know that majority of the SK community is on OOO's side, I could be wrong. From what I can tell from in game, though, I don't see as many haters as I do on the forums :D

@Orangeo
I'd like to repeat that the OP is personal speculation. Percentage values are not proven facts, I used them to illustrate, from my experience, how I saw the game being played out. Having your own thoughts is fine, even if it differs from mine, but don't bash other's opinions, or else it makes it seem like you're picking things out for what they aren't because you want to argue.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 23:47

#15

Sir-Tuddle

I'm Tuddle

"Bottom line, OOO doesn't try to balance weapons and currency sinks, in spite of the money players pay. Key words "DOSEN'T TRY". Players want more crown sinks? Tadah, OOO makes sure PVP doesn't even really sink crowns by making krogmo boosters! Players want flourish lines nerfed? Nah, OOO is going to nerf a popular 4* bomb, instead of changing the completely unused irontech line! Then they spend even more time making useless things like the supply depo. Now, does anyone think the supply depot isn't an obvious scam? I'm sure plenty-a-noob have fallen for it, considering it is advertised on the mission menu. Goodbye CE."

No offense, but you pretty much just became the kind of person the Op is talking about |:{. And now I will regurgitate some pretty relevant advice.

"My last point in this great wall of text is that NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PLAY. A lot of people think that, because they play the game, everything OOO does has to cater to them, and that they're suddenly in the spotlight. No, you're a passenger witnessing Spiral Knights develop, and if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to log on only to be disappointed. OOO has a game to run and your hate isn't going to make things any better."

Although yes i would like to point out that a game develops better under the influence of both the company and the consumer; you have to remember that the game is ultimately going to grow into the game the developers intended it to be, it is their game. And yes i also think the supply depo is pointless and yes people like you and me ARE entitled to their opinions. That doesn't justify people to bash at OOO like they are.

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 06:45

#16

Orangeo

"You guys/gals can generalize

"You guys/gals can generalize all you want about the playerbase and the forum goers, but you have no real way to actually quantify any of it. "
Everyone generalizes. The population of the US is 300,000,000, and yet we have two presidential candidates. I used pretty good reasoning.

"Having your own thoughts is fine, even if it differs from mine, but don't bash other's opinions"
Excuse me? You're making a thread bashing everyone with an opinion you call "hate".

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 00:56

#17

Virtuewis

@ Orangeo

I know everyone generalizes, and I do not oppose it. My point was (if you would have finished the rest of my quote) that you cannot assume your generalization to be meaningful to anyone other than yourself. It is not fact, it is merely a prediction or speculation. I meant that when I said that it "doesn't mean you are all wrong" in the very next sentence after the one you quoted.

Also, the U.S. election system is hardly a strong argument to validate the credibility of generalization. Just because that is how the system is, doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't evolve and improve. There are people calling (marching and protesting... even getting sprayed in the face with pepper!) for reforms of the current election system.

I'm not picking on you. You are a smart knight! If anything, I'm offering advice and ammo for constructing a more formidable argument.

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 01:26

#18

Fehzor

@Virtuewis

See, what you do is more than just "offer criticism", you derail his train of thought and essentially kill any chance of people looking at him. Just as the forums are "the whiny part of the community", your post is disrupting the otherwise natural flow of "We don't like the shard bomb changes". If the minority of players that enjoy the shard bomb changes and agree with them were to switch sides, it would make it far clearer to the developers that the playerbase opposes such a thing entirely. But no, they come on, they look through threads, and they see people like you, whom loves the shard bomb changes. Thus, you have proved others to be the "loud mouthed" part of the forums, and have by that virtue destroyed the will of the majority. Of course, it is clearly not a majority, as you said. 99% of players LOVE the shard bomb changes. The 1% that dislike them are all forum-goers, whom are there own secret society of annoying loud mouthed people that should by no means have ANY opinion.

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 01:38

#19

Virtuewis

@ Fehzor

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please link my post where I say that 99% of players LOVE the shard bomb charges. I actually couldn't care less about the bomb updates because I do not use them. I have never mentioned bombs in any of my posts. I think you are confusing me with someone else...

It seems that you are emotional about my criticism of Orangeo's bad argument. Unfortunately, if you think you can make up quotes or clip quotes out so that the context is stripped, then you are just as guilty of a terrible argument. Also, I am a forum poster. If I think the forums are only made up of the "whiny part of the community" alone, then you should have attacked me for being a whiner by being here at all.

Also, this is not a derail just because I explain why many of the arguments are not valid. If anything I am contributing to the discussion as an unbiased participant. Again: I do not care about the bomb change (nor have I ever claimed to) and I am not whining about promos. I am simply trying to explain why the current arguments are not good ones. I'm sorry if you are personally offended somehow, but again I think you have misunderstood me (and actually confused me for someone else in the first place).

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 01:43

#20

Dorael

@Fehzor

"But no, they come on, they look through threads, and they see people like you, whom loves the shard bomb changes."

I'm sorry... but at what point did Virtuewis say he loved the bomb changes? I can't even find where in the thread he at all spoke about the bomb.

Edit: Damn it, posted too late. See, if I hadn't gone back and reread everything Virtuewis said to make sure I wasn't crazy and instead just made stuff up on the spot, I would have gotten that post in before he wrote his.

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 01:52

#21

Virtuewis

/poke Dorael

The truth is on your side! Never mind your timing. :D

Sat, 08/11/2012 - 04:08

#22

Jes-Turr

People are getting "Anti

People are getting "Anti Hate" and "Bomb Change Lovers" tied in together and they shouldn't.

@Orangeo
"Excuse me? You're making a thread bashing everyone with an opinion you call 'hate'."
Opinion =/= emotion, and I'm not bashing anyone's hate. People have a right to be angry. The problem is the way many people express it.
Also, there's the small group of forum-goers that no one likes, the ones that are angry ONLY BECAUSE everyone else is angry. Let's at least agree that that's an issue that needs fixing.

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