Spiral Knights - RSS is a Complete Joke Now. (Videos Inside)

RSS is a Complete Joke Now. (Videos Inside)

75 replies [Last post]

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 21:40

#51

Evilnut

Wow.

"Bombers take a risk when they decide to only use bombs."

And what risk does sword users take using only swords? What risk does gun users take using only guns? None. They kill single targets and groups of targets just fine. They kill fast moving targets just fine (especially greavers).

"Bombs aren't designed to kill an enemy."
"AoE is the niche of bombs because they're the main weapon to do that. You can go into the whole Brandish/Alchemer debate, but that has nothing to do with this."

R.I.P., logic. Your last word on the ground started with "Fan", "boy" in the middle, and ended with "ism".

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 21:53

#52

Pokenuevo

Swordsmen take the risk of being too close for comfort if they want to attack an enemy (unless they abuse charge).
Gunners take the risk of dealing less damage over time, and for the most part, harder time controlling mobs.
And I stand by what I said. Bombs, aside from the knockback/damage ones, are not designed to kill for the most part. I'm not saying you can't kill an enemy with only bombs. It just makes it tougher, which may be fun to some. About the AoE... Why do people use Status bombs in LD? They use it to cover as much area to stop enemies from coming close to capture a point. Then, usually, they switch to another weapon, or a teammate, goes to kill that enemy. The Nitro is also somewhat popular in LD because people won't come too close to the bomber because if they attack, they know they might get caught in the giant explosion. The only bomb that wasn't for AoE was really the Shard bombs, and that's because it was more a single-hit weapon.

Just because my logic is similar to that of Three Rings does not make me a fanboy. The fact that I have a differing opinion and am free to express it is apparently "my problem".

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 22:00

#53

Arctifice

Bombs are bombs. So by the

Bombs are bombs.

So by the same token, swords should be swords and exist PURELY to damage single targets, and guns should exist PURELY as a safe fallback weapon.

Sure, let's disregard all the crossovers that exist, that actually give this game variety.bombs should be primarily area of effect and crowd control, but other weapon types aren't adhered to this code so strictly. The only real single target DPS sword is the Striker series, everything else has some form of crowd control capability. Guns have Pulsars for the control department. Bombs already excel in crowd control, but they've been severely lacking in the damage component, the part that's integral to successful runs. If one player can't kill one target effectively regardless of weapon preference, something's really, really wrong. That's the dilemma of the bomber; up until now, the RSS was THE damage bomb, giving them damage capabilities that rivaled and even surpassed the other two families. Now that's gone, replaced by some gimpy piece of junk that should be ashamed to call itself a bomb. Now bombers are confined to dealing piddling amounts of damage while swordies and gunners get to enjoy the benefits of excelling at everything.

Time to set up a Bazaar thread.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 22:05

#54

Shoebox

Bombs, aside from the

Bombs, aside from the knockback/damage ones, are not designed to kill for the most part.

You heard it here first, folks.
If you want to kill stuff in a hack and slash game, 1/3rd of all the weapons in this game are entirely useless.
And it's how the game was allegedly intended.

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 22:24

#55

Sir-Alfred

Vanaduke's double attack.

BTW Lizzi, If I remember correctly, I heard that if Vana is stunned sometimes he can do a double atk like we saw in your vid. I guess you proved that myth for me ^_^

After watching, I was really sad to see the really bad charge time and detonation time :o

R.I.P RSS

Thu, 08/09/2012 - 23:56

#56

Unbounded

If anything,

I'm not going to say changing the bombs themselves was a horrible idea, but in their current form they need to definitely get tweaked.

A few things:

1: Increase the damage a smidge.

2: Increase the range that the shards can get launched to. With the way that these bombs work it'd be perfect to have a little bit more of a "buffer zone" between you and the shards.

3: Increase the blast radius a tad.

4: Make it so that a single enemy can be hit with a maximum of 4 shard explosions, not 3.

5: Quicken the fuses on the shards a little. It's way too long as it is. (Besides, I already waited on the actual bomb to explode. Why do I have to do it again?

6: Please, PLEASE don't make the shards disappear once they've hit a wall. That's just irritating and completely ruins the bomb in any kind of corridor situation.

A few of these put together could go a long way.

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 01:24

#57

Tersakaff

Whoa, this is just a punch in the face.

I believe the reason was "it was OP" rather than "it wasn't a bomb". :/

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 06:39

#58

Orangeo

Yes tersakaff, the 4* bomb

Yes tersakaff, the 4* bomb was OP. Considering you can solo vannaduke in like half the time with a needle. "But vannaduke isn't everything, what about LD?" If they thought it messed up LD, why change it before the flourish lines? Or better yet, the overused polaris. It's too bomb like!!!

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 06:43

#59

President-Trump

lol.... /cry

im in grief now... havent got a chance to try RSS soloing vanaduke before the update... will I ever get a chance? I think no.

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 07:23

#60

Serell

To all those that said bombs should only be for AoE :

You are wrong. Bombs should be MOSTLY for AoE. Sunshards was the best single target DPS bomb, and the only thing they could fight a skolver clone solo with. Now if they just happen to find themselves alone in LD, they're screwed.

Guys, look at the freakin Blitz Needle. What are guns for? Sacrificing damage for range, to stay safe. Tell me, what to people do with their Blitz Needle? They get right in the freakin monsters face and obliterate it. The thing can even one-shot things swords can't, and aren't swords supposed to be the goto for the best single target DPS?!?!?!?!?! And if you think about, people use the Blitz like a bomb as well. Seriously, who uses the regular attack? I only see people use the charge.

Now, should the Blitz Needle be changed? No (though maybe a slight nerf). It offers variety. Guns are for hitting things far away, but what about the few people that like to get up close, but don't feel comfortable with a sword, they like shooting things! Well then they have the Blitz Needle.

And what about gunners who like AoE? Well, they got alchemers, shooting ricochets everywhere! Also get the Polaris, creating walls of energy.

Now what about people that like AoE over DPS, but like slashing things? Well, they got heavy swords!

Now bombers are the best when it comes to AoE! But.. what about the few people that enjoy explosions, but like single target DPS? Well, you got the RSS and ISB!.... well, you used to. Now people that enjoy explosions are forced to like AoE... AoE isn't every bombers style. Bombs should be MOSTLY for AoE. Guys, the Sunshards still AoE capable, and it was definitely bomb like, it was a shrapnel grenade!

Buuut... it could have used a slight nerf in the range. It was quite ridiculous, maybe nerf the range... 4 squares? And the damage it dealt was ok for a 5*, the problem was it was a 4*, so nerf the damage and then restore it on the upgrade to 5*.

The new bombs.... they're kinda cool, but there was no reason to get rid of the old....

Swords should be for slashing, guns should be for shooting, bombs should be for explosions.

There, I finally said it somewhere x3

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 22:10

#61

Negimasonic

I'm a retired knight, nothing I say really matters :P

My issue with continuously saying that the old RSS was "wrong" is that it was wrong for a hilariously long time. According to the wiki, it has been in existence since at least December 12, 2010 (based on revisions, I'm sure it was around before that). So we're looking at over a year and a half of being "wrong". Meanwhile more and more weapons were introduced or changed where they no longer fit the basic description of a gun or sword. But those cases have been made already.

I don't think OOO is stupid, they've fixed a lot of bugs in the past (eventually) but it couldn't have taken them this long to completely redesign the bomb if it was that much against their vision. Look how they changed the DA charge attack awhile back so it would no longer pierce FSC barriers, that was done quite some time ago to correct a "wrong". What it seems like to me is they added more stuff that would've been "wrong" and has changed from the original vision. But hey, companies change over time, so I won't totally fault them for this extremely long oversight.

However, putting all of that aside, the weapon just seems too weak. Going on mission 8-1, The Return of Ur,
against a neutral enemy.
A Kat, the inner ring dealt 47 damage, the outer. 55.
Nitronome dealt 166.

Ok, that's expected right? A 4* vs a 5* on a neutral enemy. However, we know that when hitting an enemy with an elemental weakness, a 4* weapon will surpass a 5* normal. Just look at the damage of the Dark Thorn Blade vs the Leviathan Blade numbers from the wiki for stratum 5 to confirm this (actually it applies to the 6th stratum as well in this case).

Now onto fiends.
Well the inner ring hits for 110 damage, and the outer, 129 damage. (Btw, these numbers are slightly higher as my RSS damage is at max vs fiends because of a UV from before).
Nitronome of course, dealt 166.

So this means that as long as you hit two shards, you're doing better damage than you would be with a nitronome. That's great...except for the issues of shards not working right. But even that's not a problem all the time, it's actually getting enemies to hit two shards. In the first case against the kats, they just about never ran into the center ring. And they often dodged the outer ring. If they did get hit, they'd get hit by one shard. Now granted, this bomb isn't for undead, but it's elemental counterpart is, so that's something to think about. Long story short, if I'm consistently landing one hit, I'm doing less than I would be with the neutral nitronome.

However, the same issues became a problem when going after the devilites. Chaining the bomb is easy enough, but because of the whole inner radius outer radius thing, they more than a few times slipped through the outer ring to hit me before the next inner ring went off.

Honestly, why is there space anyway between the initial blast and the appearance of the shards? I mean if we're going to go into what makes sense, I make an explosion, and it spawns crystals that will also explode a whole block away from the blast? Why not place them on the outside of the initial radius? I get this may have been done to allow for a ping pong kind of effect with enemies, but it's unnecessarily dangerous. At least when compared to chaining DBB or Nitronome, where you can clearly see what's going to happen in advance. The payoff is consistent.

Don't get me wrong, old RSS was hit or miss too really. I wasn't one of the biggest users of the bomb, but I did enjoy using it against devilites and undead. And there was another reason to use this "gun like bomb" over a gun, any bomber wearing bomber armor is going to receive a bonus for using it instead of a gun, whether that is CTR or damage (or both). If you pick up a gun, you lose those bonuses. It's a similar choice a swordie would make when considering whether to take along a shivermist or a glacius, while not as effective, the glacius would receive armor bonuses making it fit that users playstyle better.

It needs more damage, faster explosions, a larger radius, and/or a better way to guarantee two shard hits 80% of the time. I'm not suggesting all of those at once, just some ideas already mentioned in this thread. Otherwise there is no reason to pick it over DBB or Nitronome. This of course says nothing of the other element counterparts, but I'm sure they'd appreciate a damage boost as well. The neutral damage is just terrible.

Fri, 08/10/2012 - 22:31

#62

Wodanct

Since they are so hard on

Since they are so hard on against a bomb that there was never overpowered in this first place.. inb4 someone claims OP in LD. All I have to say about LD is if you are too stupid to dodge a bomb that fires the same directions each time then that is your own inability.

Anyway.. if we are going to be forced to keep these pieces of utter junk they better buff the damage outputs and aoe range and fix all the bugs.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 05:43

#63

Solarupt

5* version of RRS

Guys you do know that the RRS now has a 5* version right...

RIP RRS

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:23

#64

Verodius

The only Shard Bombs that are

The only Shard Bombs that are really that useful mow are the Shadow and Elemental ones, and even that is more due to lack of competition (though I imagine the Shadow Shards would be quite good against Thwackers, since it damages from so many directions.)

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 06:52

#65

Eltia

Shadow and elemental shard bombs

For thwackers, I found Venom Veiler more useful. They effectively create AoE bomb for you and all you need to do is poison their targets and lead them into the AoE.

For gremlins, is dark distribution still useful? Usually I just use Acheron on them.

How is the elemental shard bomb? I can see how they could be useful against mecha in corridor situation. For undeads, since they move slow and tend to cluster together, maybe Voltaic Tempest or Electron Vortex, combine with Polaris or CIV charge attack?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 07:23

#66

Capt-Chopper

DBB is the best anti-gremlin

DBB is the best anti-gremlin bomb due to its knockdown ability with no knockback, you can perma-pin gremlins with it by spamming it. DBB also outdamages the elemental shadbomb in killing zombies as well, which is pretty sad in itself. The shadow shard bombs are decent on jelly cubes but DR is far better at everything else and can be used to take out turrets without knocking monsters around.

If you check out Eeks http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/4347?page=17#comment-468124 he does some pretty good comparisons.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 22:36

#67

Baodur

Lizzi!

I know this is half-necroing... because this hasn't been posted on for about two weeks but...

I LOVE YOU LIZZI<33333

Just had to say that, carry on, and if no one else says anything, might want to throw this in the graveyard.

Tue, 09/04/2012 - 08:15

#68

Eltia

Elemental bomb

So one fine afternoon I was crafting stuff as usual and a double UV crystal bomb showed up (CTR Med + Undead VH). I thought, my cue to try out the new shard bomb I guess?

Super Crystal Bomb can't kill any zombies in FSC (not surprisingly). Heavy Crystal Bomb gets better and can do about 150-ish per shard (so up to 450-ish if you manage to stack the shards on zombies). What I notice is that to make shard bomb easier to use, the key seems to rely on the geometric arrangement of your targets. So one way I found out is to alternate shard bomb with Shiver. When you charge Shiver, your targets would move into position to surround you. Once you freeze them, you should be able to lay 1-2 shard bombs and the shards should be able to exploit the circular patterns your targets that are pinned down.

Are the new shard bombs usable? Yes. Does it provide enough utility? If I need another bomb to get the best out of it, that says a bit about the status of the shard bomb. Will you use it on a regular basis? I don't know yet. My guess is that it would end up like my Nitronome: looks good, feels good and people will hate me for using it and at some point I would question why make my life more difficult than it already is. Are there any alternatives? Electron Vortex + Charged Sword Slash? Like shard bomb + shiver, it requires two weapons also but it gives more utility and fulfillment.

Tue, 09/04/2012 - 14:03

#69

Purrifier

Awww maan

I'm not a bomber and i dunno anything about bombing but i feel sad for bombers. In old times, bombers can use their RSS to take out skolver clones like me, but now, they can only put haze bombs and nothing else. I was fighting with them really while they have their RSS, but now, its just a joke. Bombers haze, people shoot him with guns, bomber dies.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 00:21

#70

Sgt-Brownie

@OP

800 damage for a 4* weapon is alot, even more so when it's a bomb we're talking about. I'm no expert in swordsmanship, but I can definitively say no other 4* weapon could even come close to that much damage in like, what, 2 seconds?

Also may I remind you that:
1) Vanaduke isn't weak to any special type and it's never been. If you want to do any good damage to it, Nitronome, DBB, or even the Big Angry Bomb are the way to go;
2) You're comparing damage before and after the nerf with the least damaging of the two piercing shard bombs. There is a reason why the Splinter Bomb line exists: It doesn't have the VH Fiend the RSS line has, but deals the most piercing damage of the two in order to compensate. Same for ISB: Dark Matter Bomb line does the most shadow damage, but ISB has a VH Slime.

The nerf was most definitively inevitable. Aside from the disappearing shards bug and 3 shards damage limit, I find the nerf good enough for a 4* bomb; after all, you're not supposed to do 500+ damage with a 4* weapon.

5* versions of those though, I have no idea how much damage they do, so I can't comment on those.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 00:53

#71

Griseolar

Ugh, not again...

Yes, a 4* weapon should not be doing damage in the hundreds, so we should COMPLETELY change its mechanic mirite? Whatever happened to doing the obvious and just nerfing damage and/or range. That way, bombers at least still have the option of a quick, long-range direct damage bomb for variety...you know, the thing that you also see in swords and guns right now?

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 01:34

#72

Zeddy

@Sgt-Brownie

Strike needle does 1530 damage from its charge attack against neutral targets. You're absolutely right; that isn't even close.

1) Vanaduke has a slight weakness to pierce, and always has. The mask is resistant to non-normal damage.
2) The difference between sun shards and splinter bomb is 20 damage on the shards. The initial explosion is the same. That's a difference of max 60 damage if you can hit with three shards (the hard-coded max limit). This is provided you don't hit with too many shards, rendering the target impervious to all shard bomb damage.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 05:48

#73

Sgt-Brownie

@Zeddy

Then nerf that charge attack; nobody would mind such a thing anyway.

1) The "Piercing Weakness" in Vanaduke is actually a graphical bug, a bug well seen when you use the Piercing Guns: When you're shooting with a Magnus, it's shown as normal damage; yet if he was actually weak to Piercing the damage shown would be critical. Eventually the best way to see this is to compare your regular shots between a Slag and Vanaduke.
2) Still enough a difference to compare it to other bombs against wolvers instead of the SSS.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 09:16

#74

Zeddy

@Sgt-Brownie

If think nobody would mind nerfing the damage on one of the most used guns in the game by over 50% (so that it's not even close to 800, naturally the rest of the line would have to follow suit), I think you might be slightly mistaken.

Didn't know about the graphical bug, though. Interesting!

As for 2)... no it's not. DBB does over 80 more damage to wolvers than Nitronome does, and it still takes the same amount of each to kill wolvers.

Wed, 09/05/2012 - 10:57

#75

Sgt-Brownie

@Zeddy

Eh, at one point everyone will get sick of having their game being too easy and will ask for a charge nerf on the needle family. I sure remember the time where Trojans were actually decently challenging.

As for 2), I mean about this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz-8JFrGcfg), where the person compares damage done to wolvers and how fast you kill them between a DBB, a Nitronome and a SSS. And I'm pretty sure the difference between Nitronome and DBS in killing would be almost close to none had he chosen the better piercing shard bomb, the DBS, instead of the SSS.

Sun Shards have never been a good choice against wolvers, before or after the nerf.

Search

RSS is a Complete Joke Now. (Videos Inside)