no skill on RSS bomb...

this is so laughable. I won't say it takes a grand amount of skill, because it doesn't (altho it took slightly more skill than other bombs, b/c your placement was more important.)

But what are we comparing the skill level too? (Since its all relative). Without a benchmark, the skill argument is about as pointless as anything i can think of. [not saying this to insult anyone, just discussing]

So are we comparing the skill required for RSS vs the skill of using a sword! Whoa. The RSS took infinitely more skill (tho still not a huge amount, by any means). But with RSS you had to bait an enemy into walking over the bomb, or lay it in their backside when solo. In group play, you had to weave into the heart of the pack and place it strategically where the most shards will land. VS a sword....solo you run to the side, attack twice and hold for charge, circle around, and release charge. (or 2 attacks circle 2 attacks). No danger, no skill required. Against groups its even easier. You stay incredibly safe and just barely approach the first from an angle that stacks the most in a row, and you release a charge and do more damage in one shot than any bomb will ever do, attack more monsters at once with OHKO power than any bomb or gun can ever do. All with a fraction of the risk required by a bomber.

So while their are many arguments one can make vs the old Shard Bombs, the lack of skill in using them is not one that holds any water.

"And its CLEAR that the old RSS was NOT EVEN CLOSE to any of the OTHER guns or Swords that are considered OP.
CLEARLY."
Funny, if you're applying sarcasm in this context, it means you're saying that the old RSS was comparable to guns or swords that are considered OP, in which case why nerf only the bomb and not all the other things it was comparably OP'd with? But then again this is the internet where sarcasm is hard to detect through text.

About the shard bombs killing mecha knights, I brought ISB to an arena with slimes, constructs and beasts in it yesterday. There were A LOT of Mecha Knights, all killed very efficiently by ISB. The shock probably helped immensely, but I can't imagine the increased damage from a Crystal Bomb couldn't make up for the lack of it. Sometime I bumped the knights back with a good shieldbash to get them in it, but that was still easy to do.

@Tsubasa

In-game name is Zeddy. We should arrange a time for it! : D

I can't believe this actually irritated me enough to induce a post, but here we go:

Let's begin with your responses to Shortnskinny.
"Thank you for being kinda, well, and idiot in my books. I gave you..."
This entire response was ridiculous. First of all, when you present a point, you are responsible for the proof; the person inquiring about your validity is not. Saying she has to go find the proof herself not only degrades your argument, it's simply rude.
"Also, Sidenote, "Prove me it/wrong" is really... childish"
Since that's essentially what you're asking her to do by not providing evidence for your arguments, I'm going to have to call out your hypocrisy.

Moving on.

"So my logic is different then yours. I don't think Chronologically, in words, or number. So kill me. (Seems alot like Discrimination if you ask me.)"
Actually you're logic isn't different, it's non-existent. You bring up completely unrelated arguments and rebuff others' points with fallacies and misdirections. I beg you to attempt to find a single type of scientifically accepted logic your thought process falls under.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic#Topics_in_logic
P.S. Ignoring the obvious fact that no one DID ask you, it's actually not at all like discrimination. And since I'm proving a point and it's my responsibility to provide proof (see what I did there?):

-treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit (-http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination)
-Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on his or her membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category (Merrium-Webster)

He didn't do that. Just because you imagine yourself to be the user of some special type of logic does not make it true.

"I'm a Visual Spatial thinker..."
Actually, visual-spatial thought only means you think in images and shapes. It does not in any way mean words have no meaning. Again, that is a personal opinion of yours. Please keep those separate from fact.

"is it a BAD thing that I'm not the best at words?..."
Actually yes, since the medium you're presenting your thoughts in is written word. I'm not saying you have to be the best, you just need to be understandable.
Here's a similar situation: I cannot speak nor write Russian. If I went to a Russian board meeting and attempted to explain things in English or broken literal-translation Russian, I cannot expect them to work to understand me.
You are attempting to prove something to someone else. That means that unless they have stated that they will attempt to work with your difficulties, it's your responsibility to put forward ideas that can be understood.

"Heh, I want balance..."
Just because you believe the Rocket Hammer to be balanced, does not make it so. People have made very similar forum threads to yours saying the Hammer is unbalanced. Is your thread somehow more valid? Many of them actually present logically sound arguments. Once again, separate opinion and fact, please.

"Oh lordy! Look out! He has TECHNICAL DETAILS!..."
Whoop, here's more hypocrisy. Seems like a theme of yours. The reason his statement was actually incredibly valid, was that it directly and successfully rebuffed your point about the previous RSS not being bomb-like; not to mention your ridiculous reference to the nautical league. You stated the bomb was unlike any real bombs. He gave information not only directly countering that statement, but also proving that the RSS fell exactly into the category of a futuristic (spiral tech) non-random shrapnel bomb.

"Oh, so you can see the entirety of all of the monster..."
Here's where that comment I made about your English skills comes into play. I have literally no idea what your response means, let alone what it counters. This is after multiple attempts at deciphering it.

"Yeah, you get less damage. But more AoE, which is a Bomb. and, you know, AoE means more times something has a Chance to be hit...."
Let's talk about Area of Effect now. While your statement might be true for other types of large range weapons (for example, mine field spells in WoW), it is almost completely untrue in Spiral Knights. Since there are no AoE weapons that have the possibility of direct damage in multiple instances over a period of time (meaning that they make an area hold the possibility to damage a single target [note SINGLE] multiple times), AoE in Spiral Knights is only effective in damaging multiple enemies one to a few times.
To say it another, more relevant, way: In the instance of the new Shard bomb, you've likened its new bombing method to a "mine field" in other posts. That is a completely incorrect relation. A mine field places a multitude of bombs that are detonated at different times on either a single or multiple targets. The Shard bomb releases a group of timed bombs that can hit multiple targets, but a single target can be hit by two bombs at the most. (And due to SK's enemy sizes, that group only includes some 7-9 larger enemies)
And this is all ignoring the odd behavior of the shard bomb wherein shards may disappear if they directly come in contact with a monster (or a wall) before landing. We're assuming all the shards spawn all the time for this argument.

Edit: I can't believe I forgot this! Your statement on bombs being only for large AoE is also incorrect. Many types of bombs are meant for small radius destruction or effect. For example: Napalm bombs, ceramic bombs, cobalt bombs, flash bombs, "dirty bombs," directed bombs*, and the all popular grenade.
*(think like guns- where the explosion is directed by a strong canister in a single direction, but sans the bullet)

*Takes a breath*
We're going to go a bit out of order now, because there are just so many opportunities on page one of this thread.

"Well, not really... I solo'd because..."
Re: #1 - The fact that you wanted the aggro actually weakens your argument. Practically all bombs are easier to use in solo play, precisely because there is only one knight to receive aggro. Knock-back in solo only means knock-back away from yourself. In party play it also means knock-back towards others.
Re: #3 - This relates to #1 in how it weakens your point quite significantly.
You actually wrote your downfall yourself: " they screw up my predictable knockback, and knock things out of my bombs most times"
That is actually one of the big reasons people find this bomb underpowered. The new Shard system is so dependent on enemies being blown into the secondary bombs by the initial knock back that any interference by other knights reduces the effectiveness of this bomb by a large percentage.

"LOL, Not-sure-if-trolling-or-just-stupid. Why they're OP?..."
You know you're explanation of over powered is entertaining. And I'm really not sure where you found that they could one hit many, many things with no bonuses. If you meant with bonuses, well then you should have said so. Don't assume we know what you mean.
So let's start with your statement of 1-hit K.O.s being OP.
-(This is comparing charges, due to the fact that bombs have no base attack. I dearly hope this was obvious.)
-(Note: Base implies level 10, no other equipment bonuses, and no UVs)
-RSS: Elemental/Pierce
-A base RSS solo could 1 hit zombies if placed perfectly.
-A base RSS in a 4-team party cannot 1 hit zombies even if placed perfectly.
-A base RSS cannot 1 hit a trojan even in solo.
-Blitz: Pierce
-A base Blitz solo can 1 hit a zombie at general close range.
-A base Blitz in a 4-team party can 1 hit a zombie at well-aimed close range.
-A base Blitz solo can 1 hit a trojan at close range.
-A base Blitz in a 4-team party cannot 1 hit a trojan at close range. (but leaves trojan nearly dead)
-DA: Elemental
-A base DA can 1 hit a zombie if it is hit by the entire charge animation.
-A base DA in a 4-team party: I'm actually unsure on this one. I've never used the line myself in a party and I've never looked to closely in party play.
-A base DA cannot 1 hit a trojan.
As this shows, single hit KO's are not reliable pieces of evidence in the evaluation of the RSS's "OP"-ness.

"Not to mention Stupidly effective Hit and run damage on slimes... and it was half pierce."
Being half-pierce has nothing to do with it really. The bomb was pierce/elemental. Fighting jellies only caused a reduction on the pierce damage. The full brunt of the elemental damage was still effective. Your argument is like saying the damage a DA does on beasts is too high, because it's normal/elemental.

Wow, look at that wall of text. *whistles*
I'm pretty sure I missed a point or two, but honestly I'm tired.
I wait on the edge of my seat for your rebuttal(s).

nice vids, like them, just rename it to sth else, not fraps generated code thing

Ill try that out, just need to becareful since I have 1 bar xD

I'd argue, as pawn did, that its OPness was less OP than that of most any Sword and many of the guns.

@4* that was too effective. You got me there, it had 5* star effectiveness for the cost of a 4* bomb. But really, you'd have to be dense not to see the only logical solution here (and its not to completely change the bomb.) Simply dial back the 4* version, take it up to 5* and make the fully heated 5* version do the same damage as the previously fully heated 4*.

Sure people would have complained about another recipe, another craft, and more heating just to get back to where they were. But it would have caused a great deal less rage than all this. They could have handed out a single UV ticket for anyone who had a 4* version bound. This would have been infinitely less exploitable, and served as just compensation for having to level up your bomb again to get it back where it was.

The logic that "after careful deliberation, OOO has decided that the Radiant Sun Shards does not act as intended. It is a 4* bomb that functions as a 5* bomb. To further balance the game, the Radiant Sun Shards will recieve a damage reduction and a 5 star upgrade named as the Scintilating Sun Shards."

Then they could have made it split (@ the 4* version) into a pure pierce 5* and a pure elem 5*. In this way, the 4* would be nerfed to a 4* bomb, the playerbase could have chosen which attribute they wanted to keep, pierce or elem, and @ 5* when it regainied its old strenght (hitting same damage on undead/constructs) it'd be more fitting, as it was dealing pure damage to thier weakness. In the process they could have either taken the range down a bit, or added a damage multiplyer as distance increased. (and by damage multiplyer, i mean a fractional coefficient, such as loses 25% damage per 4 tiles it flies).

Just so much more logical then what they did.

tl;dr.
I just saved the old shard bomb.
5*
2 routes
shrapnel loses strenght the further it flies
or nerf its range and has full strength throughout

yeah i meant the mecha knights XD

but it would be great on everything else.. but i find it kind of derpish on puppies

Compared to Dark Briar Barrage (a pure piercing bomb), these results are below mediocre.....

No doubt these bombs has a lot of flaws, first you need both blast to hit in order to achieve the optimal damage, which other bombs can outdamage it with a single blast, and more efficient radius. Second, like I said earlier in the test feedback, by balancing an item, one must see little or no difference between the two subjects/objects that are being reviewed; however, this isn't the case because the efficiency of this bomb has been decreased to blehhhh due to the first and second blast radius being so small, and the secondary fuse time a tad long (half a sec).

I don't give a $*#@ that OOO said the old RSS wasn't bomb-like. Their logic is completely unfair and flawed.

"Guns fire bullets, bombs create areas of damage, swords do a mix of the two"

A. Unfair
Guns can fire bullets, but bombs MUST STRICTLY BE AoE. So basically guns can do ANYTHING as long as you aim it at something and shoot. Look at the freakin Blitz Needle.
All the other guns sacrifice damage for range/safety, while this does THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE. People get up close and obliterate everything with the Blitz Needle. It's high risk high reward, unlike any of the other guns, which are low risk low reward. It's also used like a bomb, because people ONLY use the charge.

To make everyting fair, every gun should be low risk low reward. But this would kill variety in guns, just like they killed variety in bombs. So what they should do is change it to this : Guns fire bullets, bombs blow stuff up, and swords whack stuff. That would be fair and keep variety.

Now naturally, most guns should sacrifice damage for range, most bombs should be AoE, and most swords deal lots of damage for sacrificing range.
Notice "MOST", not ALL. Not ALL people that like blowing stuff up like AoE. Not ALL people that like shooting stuff like sacrificing damage for range. And it's not like the old RSS wasn't AoE capable...

B. Flawed
1."bombs create areas of damage"
Nope. Stagger Storm creates an area of effect stunning targets, which does no damage at all.
2. "Guns fire bullets", "bombs create areas of damage", "SWORDS DO A MIX OF THE TWO". So swords are supposed to fire bullets and do AoE? So basically almost every sword in the game is broken except Winmillion. The Cutter line is HORRIBLE at AoE, and the Winmillion is the ONLY sword I can think of that shoots bullets. Well... I guess DA and GF have bullets on the charge, but...

...but what about faster enemies that put more pressure on you? This video seems to work well because the zombies are too slow to move out of the secondary blast, but if you're fighting things that come after you (or dodge, god forbid), it seems like your chances of hitting for decent damage are slim. My Scintillating Sun Shards, for instance, fails to hit most of the time unless I'm dropping it on a Trojan or Chromalisk... and even then, I'd rather have a DBB for the longer range, faster damage output, and so on.

I find the new mechanics interesting, but these bombs are already overshadowed by more effective and more generally-useful existing bombs. They need to be better at doing something than the alternatives for them to be attractive, and that's not the case right now. If I were to suggest a non-drastic change, I'd make the shards explode on proximity after they've fallen; that way they can be used like a slightly worse blast bomb (as you're doing) against slower targets, or as a better kiting bomb than blast bombs against faster ones (which bombers have trouble with).

Great, now compare your results to:
-An Elemental Brandish
-Dark Briar Barrage
-Electron Vortex
-Voltech Alchemer

and ultimately to:
-Electron Vortex+One Brandish (Twice the cost; more than twice the result?)
-Voltaic Tempest (in a party)
-Blitz Needle

After you're done with that, explain:
-Where you would use the 5* nRSS that deals pure piercing, but lacks a fiend bonus
-Why you would use it there instead of Dark Briar Barrage
-Ditto that, but for the pure shadow nRSS that lacks a shock/slime bonus
-Where the normal version of the new bomb would be better than getting a set of statusing haze bombs to alternate between

Consider that your claim is that they are balanced, meaning a usable side-grade to all weapons that it is in direct competition with; e.g. brandishes. That is to say- I would want to bring it instead of a brandish, given that I received equivalent bonuses on my gear for the situation, as in, I am using a full chaos set for my blitz needle on duke, and have the option to bring a gun, bomb, or sword for additional damage when fighting slags.

"HO BOY! Lemmy get out my anti-Rage goggles to respond to THAT wall of text. I skimmed it, and yeah, alot of it seemed to be uzeless reag. But I'll get to you AFTER I grab all the little posts below you. kthxbai"

I said I read it out of rage, not that my text was indicative of it. Again: personal attacks do not a good argument make.
For your education: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Also, thank you for admitting you view other people's ideas as useless before you even fully read them.
Would it be fair to say that's how you like to be treated as well?

And I guess to finish this off, it's called a subject line for a reason. It's purpose is to give an indication of the contents or write a pre-word. It is not a space to place my points. Responding to it is just pointless. *shrug*

I wait to see if you decide to respond to me with insults and unnecessary diatribe, or actually respond to my arguments. I'm hoping for the former.

@Orangeo
That was actually my plan. I hoped to confused you, knock you out, then steal all your money.
You caught me red-handed.
Darn.

can you please graveyard this topic. Its going nowhere at this point.

Start a new thread with your youtube videos (either now or when you get more vids to go with them). At this point, while the videos of the bombs in use is a great thing for the forums, the discussion on the new shard vs. the old shard, or even the new shard vs how we'd like the new shard to operate are all moot. Everyone has made up thier mind and no one's can be changed this late in the process.

Thus a "discussion" ends up being nothing but people resolute in thier beliefs banging heads. Just like political or religious arguments. No one's mind is going to be changed, and everyone will argue for thier own point of view as if they are smarter than all dissenters. These new bombs are what they are, they won't get changed, we all know that. But hopefully they will get a buff and soon.

Rawr (i think he said it) was right. They will not scrap all the work and man hours that went into these new bombs. Despite it being a sunk-cost, and sunk-costs should never be considered when moving forward. But they so often are. The Developers have chosen this path and worked hard at making it a reality. They wanted this reality that badly enough that they willingly rolled it out well before it was ready, adding a glitchty stun mechanic to a couple bombs, and not addressing a need for further consideration of others. THIS IS WHAT THE DEVS WANTED. And in the end, its thier game, thier call.

So please move this thread to the graveyard, as discussion has ceased and chippiness has replaced it. Please repost your vids in a new thread, perhaps a "bombs video" thread. We can put up vids of the old RSS--for historical reference, the new bombs--i'd really like to see the Rock sald and dark matter lines, DBB, Nitro, all of them. It'd be great to have a centralized thread for new players to come and see what bombing is all about, as they begin thier journy and make the tough decisions of what to do? what to use?

If you make the thread, i'll contact EEKs and see if its okay if we link his bombing vids and give him credit.

Cheers,

Rommy

when i get a vh ctr on the crystal line, i'll be all for a 4 person crystal explosion.

As it is, maybe we can band together and see what a team of 4 can do with peirce bombs in heart of ice??? Could be interesting. And if things take a turn for the dire, i'll break out my DBB. FYI, i solo'd that whole thing with the DBB almost exclusively, 1 death.

The DBB is a great greaver weapon. Lay it down, the greavers rush up, shield bump them away and they fly back in just in time to get smacked. Then you have time to charge again, shield bump again and the second hit kills them (solo). So bombers are not lost against grievers, just gotta play a touch more defensively.

DBB is also epically good vs Fiends, imo. I have no problems running around with my hair caught on fire, and almost never getting hit by fiends, with swords and guns, i only get hit once i become stationary to attack. With the DBB you have fantastic movement even while its charging, and it takes but a split second to set it down. You can basically just weave through them like nothing dropping DBB blasts.

And really, truth be told, without the RSS, i think that the DBB may be the best bomb on the game vs undead as well. It does suprisingly high damage for its pierce status. and on howlitzers (solo) 2-3 will take them out, and its exceedingly easy to lay a follow up one down, circle, andn get it to detonate the homing head.

Morale of the story, the DBB is an all purpose bomb that is underutilized. OH AND IT DOESN'T LAG UP THE GAME MUCH.

tangent ended.
Lets do a 4 person RSS/SSS fiend run, and see how it goes.

As to the supposed irrelevancy, I'll have to respectfully disagree.
You'd be totally correct if you hadn't used statements and points about yourself as defense against other people's arguments. But you did.
I can't force you to think about it, but I'm still going to put it out there.

As for the split neutral/resistant damage. I see your point about how you can consider it op, but you have to remember that the base weapon slot count is 2. Weapons like that allow casual players to fight without being pressured. I could agree with a damage reduction on weapons of that type, but they're necessary in adding variety. If everything dealt just one type of damage there would be no benefit or real drive to get multiple types of a weapon class.
i.e.: Carrying an elemental sword and an elemental/normal sword allows you to deal with unexpected gremlins or beasts in a construct or undead level.

I guess my real stickler with this argument is that you're calling the new shards balanced while calling the old one over-powered.
I can agree the old RSS was overpowered, it did need work.
But I can't see how someone who is looking for game-wide balance could see these as anything but underpowered.

When a game removes a weapon that's too strong: fine.
When they replace it with a weapon that simply makes 90% of the game's bombers drop the entire line after testing it?: It tells me that the producers went too far.
Especially when people have provided the producers with detailed reports of exactly why the bomb isn't even comparable to current bombs and why it makes game-play worse. Effectively crippling an entire class in the face of 2 types of enemies.

P.S. In that large swath of things you considered irrelevant I want to point out one statement. My line about real life bombs intended for small radius high damage is relevant. Especially since one line of defense for the switch and supposed it balance is that the new bomb is "more bomb-like."
Even ignoring swords and guns that fall out of their category, I can't find any value in the idea of a "more bomb-like" bomb.