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C42: Should it be "nerfed"? Is it "unfair" or "hard"?

38 replies [Last post]
Fri, 08/17/2012 - 19:06
Aumir's picture
Aumir

Warning: Maybe I am QQing about this. I may have a point though.

Tonight, I tried to solo C42. I stood my ground until half of second stage, and called it quits. While when having a team, if coordinated, is a hard Danger Mission, as a solo this looks to be not hard but "unfair", and something not "fun".

Why? The Nuclear Slimes and the Toxic Oil. But not the "spilling oil" part or the spin attack of them, nor the igniting or poisoning abilities of the oil, I am really fine with that. I am quite on the fence about the "charge" and the "shield damage" part of them:

- About the charge attack of the Slimes: I am fine that they can spill a row of Toxic Oil, this helps them make them dangerous due to possibly igniting the Toxic Oil. Still, they have no warning about it. Yeah, it makes no damage, I know. BUT, the very, very big problem comes when they are ignited already: The result is and INSTANT fire+poison effect that is 100% unavoidable unless you are already shielded, which when I talk about Toxic Oil will be talked about again. Also, it is absolutely random the rate of their attack, sometimes you may be dashed two times in a row even, making a very big wall of fire in your way. Now...

- About Toxic Oil: It is 99% perfect. It makes C42 what it is. But... why must our shields be damaged and we must be locked there? Status clouds are safely passed by our shields, and normal oil doesn't make this effect. This creates definitively an unfair situation: you get locked when your room is full of Toxic Gel. Not only that, but it makes escaping Nuclear Slimes next to impossible if swarmed! If you get as much as two ignited Nuclear Slimes on you, you are literally toast. One time, it may not kill you, of course, but when you are constantly getting on fire due to chain creation of Toxic Gel and you can't even move, you know there is something wrong in the design.

Now, we know that there is a way to make yourself inmune to the poison+fire effects in C42. Which involves a very, very specific set + UVs/trinkets. You can also of course not protect yourself of the fire or the poison with similar armors, but you do still need some "reinforcement". Is this also fair? Is this difficulty? Is this fun?

Maybe if I used Umbra Driver it would be much better than Gran Faust, I know. Maybe I am just not good enough too. But even if that is true, is this really just "hard content" or is there something actually wrong about the concerns I tried to expose?

I saw the feedback in the Testing Forum, and people seemed quite happy about the Danger Mission, and when it came out, it was also liked (I liked it too) but, Heart of Ice even if it has nasty enemies IS soloable (I did that) and it doesn't really have "unfair" situations. Still, how I was able to solo it was due to "being quick on my feet", one thing in C42 I don't seem to be able to do, maybe because of using Gran Faust, maybe because of being locked in Toxic Gel, maybe because of getting instantly put on fire by the ignited Nuclear Slimes, or everything together.

Now, even if this means "suggesting" something, do you think that maybe ignited Nuclear Slimes shouldn't be able to charge? Also, I think they should "fix" the Toxic Gel shield "issue". Do you agree?

Do you also agree on what I wrote? Have anything to express about C42 that irks you, or do you love how is it made? Maybe it should remain as a "team content"?

And yes, I still haven't found again that Stalker :/

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 19:12
#1
Tantarian's picture
Tantarian
Dude

They are called DANGER missions.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 19:25
#2
Dorael's picture
Dorael
I really suspect that the

I really suspect that the dash is a distance closing mechanic that they don't do unless you're too far from them. If you keep Toxoils at the right distance they shouldn't dash at you.

You also should never have your shield break, or ever be in a situation where your shield can break. If you're ever in a situation where you're surrounded by Toxoils then you probably did something wrong earlier to land you in that spot. There should be enough of a delay between new puddles spawning and them catching on fire so when they spawn you can move out. The only thing you really need to shield are the barbs because lol Toxoils shooting them in random directions.

I haven't tried soloing it the last time it was up but I'm guessing Heart of Ice is still broken for solo play. Every time I've soloed it before there were Frozen Souls throughout all of the mission except two rooms (the howlitzer and coliseum. In groups, Frozen Souls only appear in the boss room. It's certainly still doable but it's dumb that because of this probable bug it's worlds easier in a group than solo.

Oh, regarding Compound 42 I generally find it easier to solo than do as a group. I think that's true for most things though (bugged Heart of Ice and the last room of Legion of Almire aside). For gear, the first day I used a vog set (max fire no poison). Toxoils still lit me on fire but it didn't hurt too bad. Soloed with two deaths (both incredibly stupid and avoidable, hadn't seen any of the content before). I did a few runs after that with a Fallen set and trinkets (max fire and max poison resists) and it was generally the same results, stupid and avoidable deaths. I have the right gear for it now and it's really easy, though I'm also better having done it a lot of times since so I don't think it'd be too bad without any fire or poison if I'm careful enough.

Oddly enough I think the Toxoil puddle fires take a while to break through a Barb Thorn Shield without any fire or poison resist.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 19:48
#3
Orbwanter's picture
Orbwanter
-

C42 solo is all about being in right place when waves spawn to wipe out mender/polyps before you get poisoned. Having at least one armor set with fire resistance is a good investment anyway, and you get a wetstone pendant from missions, so the only thing you should need for oil fire immunity is a trinket slot.

The most difficult spots for me are the first arena on b24, because it happens very early in the level and I'm too cheap to buy a vitapod beforehand, and the fourth wave of the second-to-last arena in b25 if I can't kill the mender before it shields.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 20:15
#4
Dorael's picture
Dorael
Okay

Yeah, I just soloed it without dying with no poison or fire resist at all. Definitely doable. Easier than Legion of Almire or Heart of Ice in my personal opinion.

Edit: Also, from the way people were talking, I had always just assumed that the reason I didn't catch on fire when the Toxoils dashed against me was because I had fire resist. Didn't that time and more often than not their dashes only poisoned me but didn't set me on fire. I'm not sure if the times I caught on fire were because of contact or just being in green puddle fire. Definitely do have time to gtfo before puddles catch on fire though.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 20:33
#5
Eeks's picture
Eeks
easiest DM for me

I actually find C42 to be the easiest DM to solo. I run it with a mix of volc/mad bomber w/ a fire UV and have negative poison resis. It's probably even easier with full volc +med now that I think about it.

    D24
    Room1: Snipe 1 polyp on left or right first. Snipe second then kill oilers; Polyp 3 spawns top with gremlin then 3 polyps spawn in wave 3.
    Room2: The goal is to snipe gremlins out ASAP. They spawn top left, bottom left, top right, bottom right (last wave spawns with polyps). I actually bring DBB in groups to take care of the grelmins. I'd probably recommend nitronome or DR for solo.

    D25:
    Beginning you don't want to break the blocks in the middle so you have a safe zone to retreat to. Snipe the polyp and kill the lichen then open blocks on the edge of the path, head up and snipe one polyp. Pull as many gremlins as you can back and kill them. Go back up and snipe other polyp. Rockets are annoying but very avoidable.

    Switch1:
    Walk in and pull oiler and gremlin out and kill them, go back in for polyp then hit the ghost block. Run up and turn off fire in back left so you can retreat if you have to.
    Switch2:
    You don't have to hit the switch here. Get everything to spawn then run back out the ghost block. Kill everything then go back in for the polyps.

    Room1:
    In solo the respawning oiler actually drops hearts. You get a gremlin low on health so it hides in a corner and then keep healing up and watering the room. This is a lot like D24 Room 2 but with more space. It's really only hard if you leave the fire up since respawning oilers will spawn on fire. If you water the two areas where they spawn you'll be fine.
    Room 2:
    This is either easy or hard depending on what weapons you have. Always keep the button at the south of the room switched so fire lanes don't come out of the switch areas. Clear the left side first because of the rockets.

Here is a video I made for my shard bombs page that might be semi-relevant here. Basically they're with solo clears of the two rooms in D24 using DR and SSB only.

FWIW I was unable to beat C42 using only shard bomb because it's so bad at taking out polyps. I can't even begin to imagine how much of a PITA the final room would be with only shard bombs. You definitely want something that you can snipe them out very quickly with.

I don't really mind the toxic oil dinging your shields. I feel like it's a risk/reward thing. You can always just eat the poison and get out of there since most of the attacks are avoidable (except for the spinning barb attack which seems pretty random). Preventing the oil from lighting on fire is avoidable for the most part by doing target-priority and kiting oilers different ways.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 21:28
#6
Pauling's picture
Pauling
You can't solo, and I can't hover. Let's petition!

I don't know about current design practices, but in the past, the devs have indicated that their emphasis was on co-op gameplay. It's not clear to me that these missions are even intended to be completed by a solo player at all.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 21:48
#7
Wodanct's picture
Wodanct
Solo'd c42 awhile ago.. let

Solo'd c42 awhile ago.. let me give you a tip on how to make it a complete joke. max+max+med fire resistance and you will be immune to bio-oiler fires. That takes out 75% of the missions danger.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:25
#8
Asukalan's picture
Asukalan
Firstly, this is DANGER

Firstly, this is DANGER mission

Secondly, this is co-op game, if you go solo you do it at your own risk. Dont complain when you die alone and there will be noone around you.

"Co-operative Exploration
The Clockworks offer challenges that are best tackled with friends. Fight monsters, solve puzzles and discover treasures together!"

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:29
#9
Thunderbog's picture
Thunderbog
I simply disagree with

I simply disagree with nerfing Compound 42.

If the people can already solo, which means it's possible to complete the mission alone. Wodanct had already pointed out how it goes. o.O

If ye meant about the dashing ability from the bio oilers, sure it sounds unfair, but it's a new trick designed for more challenge.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:48
#10
Sweet-Hope's picture
Sweet-Hope
its pretty fine for me, the

its pretty fine for me, the only thing i can say its pretty annoying its Shielding up in middle of a pool of toxic oil, because shield keep taking and taking damage to slow you down, but i learned that its nothing, so better to get poisioned and take some space than keep shielding in a whole pool of toxic oil.

if they someday change that "shielding in a pool of toxic oil dont slow you down but you get poisoned" fine for me but if OOO dont change that its fine to me too because im not just dumb enough to let my shield being broken by the enemy and swarm me, thats why i prefer to just being poisoned and take some space to get time to charge and attack. also i prefer to do this because the shield helps to push enemies.

BTW: Dragon Scale Shield works SOOO awesome in this mission if you dont want to bring that shield in your run its your problem. i never got my shield broken in that mission and the most damage it take it was made by the Flame Throwers. but besides that none of the enemies do heavy damage to my shield ._.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:57
#11
Retequizzle's picture
Retequizzle
I just run a gunner set with

I just run a gunner set with a Perfect Mask of Seerus with Fire High resist and a Justifier Jacket with no beneficial UVs for that particular mission and I do fine, and that's with me using the Swiftstrike Buckler as my shield. Then again, as a gunner it's kind of easy to keep things at a distance and keep up DPS at the same time. So perhaps it's your playstyle that's landing you in those situations and not so much the design of the mission like everyone else is saying?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 03:03
#12
Nightscloud's picture
Nightscloud
challenge

i do find the danger missions reasonably hard but i can do LoA pretty well. They should definitely stay because they will challenge players who have technically completed the game. If there were no danger missions, old players would have quit sooner because they have nothing to challenge them

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 03:52
#13
Coneykrab's picture
Coneykrab
Don't think so

I solo'd the first floor yesterday (and the heat sucked :P), , and did die twice or so, but it was my first go. My Umbra Driver was really useful, and I found that it's better to just drop the shield the second you get trapped by those poison mines, rather than hoping to wait it out or wade through it. The poison isn't so bad (~7 seconds for me).

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:05
#14
Quandasim's picture
Quandasim
its not hard

c42 its not hard, hearth of ice is harder, make dragon armor with poison, fire uv low (or poison, fire 5* trinket) and try it again.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:08
#15
Deltikon's picture
Deltikon
Max fire resistance armor.

That's your answer to deal with the fire, which is what's killing half of the players apparently.

And yeah, the slimes' dashes should be more predictable. They can be a real pain really...

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:24
#16
Vaclavv's picture
Vaclavv
Taste the Painbow

I like it the way it is. Us knights are getting soft. I like a little pain.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:28
#17
Glacies's picture
Glacies
No Nerf Plox

C42 isn't that hard solo without your "immunity."

I do just fine in a Snarbolax Set and I do just fine (no deaths either). All you really need to do is just take your time and not rush it just like everything else.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:32
#18
Tenkii's picture
Tenkii
Definitely playstyle.

LOA is a bit annoying to play as gunner (shielding hordes of undead? Hello swords!).
On the other side of it, C42 is more tough to play as a swordsman, I think (Jellies cover their melee range with poison/fire).

Umbra driver interrupts and eats jellies. It's great.

I'd be more than happy to bet that difficulty complaints about C42 come from swordsmen.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 09:39
#19
Deltikon's picture
Deltikon
Lol, yes, mostly for swordsmen.

But even so, it's not painfully hard. Vog cub set+Grand Faust does its job pretty well imo. But of course a shadow gun is much better at blasting the damn polyps.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 12:00
#20
Dorael's picture
Dorael
As a swordy

As a swordy I thought C42 was the easiest of the bunch. Granted I haven't tried soloing LoA in a while but I can't imagine the last room not being a pain. If not for the last room then I'd say Heart of Ice is, by far, the hardest because Frozen Souls have a chance to appear on/directly in front of you and start shaking mid attack, which killed me anytime I didn't have a remedy cap.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 12:50
#21
Rommil's picture
Rommil
solo'd

as a bomber with mainly nitronome to deal damage vs. slimes. not an issue.

i had 2 deaths, one of which was completely avoidable.

i totally agree about it being wrong that guarding poison basically instakils your shield.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 14:33
#22
Dorael's picture
Dorael
I don't see what the

I don't see what the difference between shielding puddles and shielding spike floors or zombie breath is. Knowing when not to shield is as important as knowing when to. I actually hate that you can even bring a shield that is nearly unbreakable to a level as it cuts down significantly on the skill needed to properly use a shield.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 16:49
#23
Xylka-Mkii's picture
Xylka-Mkii
Its BORDERLINE of

Its BORDERLINE of unfair.

But still doable, hence it is just hard.

If its unfair, then it has to be physically impossible for everyone (or at least 95% of the playerbase).

Points for waiting to call it out though. Say it too early and then you can back up your evidence off of anything, and no one can counter you since it hasn't been done a lot.

But it is doable. Me and my one other friend did it a few days ago or something and only used a total of 4 revs.

Its a DANGER MISSION, so even if it was unfair, less people will complain because its was MADE to make you lose.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 19:48
#24
Nattss's picture
Nattss
C42 simply says to players:

C42 simply says to players: equip the right armour and right defence or you will die. Don't say these levels are hard until you've tried them in proper gear.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 20:01
#25
Flowchart's picture
Flowchart
-

only thing that needs to be nerfed is the lag, some rooms like the last one crawl for me at 2 fps or so even at lowest settings.
LoA is fine though.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 20:13
#26
Guyinshinyarmour
­

C42 is inordinately hard solo without the right gear (fire immunity). It also relies heavily on *everyone* in the party being skilled/well-armed if you're in a group. If ya got one guy screwing up everything, it's gonna hurt a lot more than it does anywhere else. However, it's a piece of cake to duo with no rezing, no matter your gear. Since this is supposed to be a team game, I find that ok. Just means I always have to wait for a friend to get on before doing the mission. So if you're having trouble, run these missions with one good friend. :p

I'm pretty sure all statuses damage shields, unless they got max resistance. After all, my BTS will eventually break under fire zombie breath, but a Crest will last forever. My BTS was shattered in short order in C42, but the Crest holds up; I just make sure to not shield when standing in poison, since that does no damage and avoiding it is nearly impossible anyway. In fact, I find that my Crest is a far better shield for C42 than my BTS since it's usually the fire oil that's always damaging my shield. My friend uses a GOS, so it's even better for him. His shield also protects against a damage type that is actually present there. Though theoretically, Dragon Scale should be perfect.

One final tip is to kill the scorchers first. If you can kill them, the slimes won't catch fire (unless you bump or kite them through another fire source). Makes those rooms far easier.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 20:14
#27
Enclavean's picture
Enclavean

NO DONT NERF IT

BUFF IT

MAKE PEOPLE RAGEEEEEEE

Nah seerusly though, all the danger missions except for LoA is extremely laggy for me, i havent bothered to solo any of them.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 00:23
#28
Dorael's picture
Dorael
@Guyinshinyarmour
Guyinshinyarmour - Sat, 08/18/2012 - 20:13
C42 is inordinately hard solo without the right gear (fire immunity). It also relies heavily on *everyone* in the party being skilled/well-armed if you're in a group.

Except it doesn't. Neither of those are true. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I soloed it without any poison or fire resist at all with zero deaths. I've also carried four player groups through it more or less on my own (though granted those times I was in immunity gear).

It's just knowing how to fight monsters and handle situations. There isn't much in randomness so it's pretty much controllable pretty much all the time. The trickiest part of it for me when I was soloing it with zero resist was the second to last party button, in that tiny corridor with vents and spawns on both sides.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 01:16
#29
Eeks's picture
Eeks
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with Guyinshinyarmour as well. I've soloed it with no deaths without immunity to fire or poison. I had 2 bars negative poison resis and cleared all the rooms pretty much with 80% poison uptime. Like Dorael said, all the spawns are static for the most part so you know exactly what's going to spawn and where it's going to spawn. This gives you a huge advantage because you can minimize the threats in order of priority.

I will agree that it requires a little more coordination for parties than LoA or HoI but coordination isn't really the same thing as being "skilled/well-armed".

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 05:08
#30
President-Trump
:S

i hav Dragonscale set with fire+poison low uvs, still hard to solo c42 without death.
C42 is truely hard! but fun and challenging

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 11:03
#31
Guyinshinyarmour
­

@Dorael & Eeks
Do me a favor and try it with 3 randoms. Tell me how that goes. Either I've had freaking terrible luck on the order of being mauled by 13 black cats, or parties fall apart far more in C42 than any of the other missions.

While I'm not gonna argue over you guys needing fire resistance or not, I'll just say that a helluva lot of people are clearly having issues with it while getting through the other DMs just fine (and this is from experience of doing runs with randoms; not just forum chatter). Maybe it's that you guys are in the minority top bracket? Not that many people can solo shadow lairs in sub-optimal gear, actually. It just seems to me that C42 is shadow lair level taxing, while the rest of the DMs aren't. I was under the impression that DMs were supposed to be a step below shadow lair.

So yeah. I'd say inordinate is a fair descriptor. It also doesn't mean "should be nerfed." Just not fitting the pattern.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 10:58
#32
Byas's picture
Byas
I've been doing well when I

I've been doing well when I go either with randoms or guild people (max of 2 revives in either case), as the name states it's a danger mission (it's supposed to be hard) you even get warned that it's gonna be hard on the description. So no, it doesn't need to be nerfed.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 12:37
#33
Dorael's picture
Dorael
@Guyinshinyarmour

Yeah, if three out of four players aren't that good then of course it should be rough. Otherwise it wouldn't be difficult at all. I have carried a full group before though (again, with full immunity gear). It was rough, certainly, but I don't think it'd be rougher than trying to carry the same in LoA or HoI. Well, maybe HoI because, again, the mission is nerfed in groups because Frozen Souls don't harass you throughout the mission.

I'm willing to bet that most people who have trouble with C42 are shielding the puddles way more than they should (read: at all). I'm fairly confident that it's possible to do a run with no resist gear and never catch on fire except possibly outside of that second to last party button.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 13:15
#34
Clwnbaby's picture
Clwnbaby
No nerf!

None of the Danger Missions need nerfing, thats why they are called danger missions. If you can't solo it guess what? Thats a good thing cause now the game has a degree of difficulty. C42 was the second Danger Mission I soloed which I did shortly after soloing the easiest Danger Mission Heart of Ice(talk about needing a buff, I mean they're fiends for crying out loud) and I have yet to solo LOA. Suffice to say if you can't solo it its your problem not ours. Stop asking the Devs to nerf everything thats hard and fun. Also I run all these missions in Chaos gear so honestly If you gonna [tart] about resists and stuff dont even bother. And if you wanna know a secret for getting around the toxic puddles all u do is shield wait for 1 or 2 chinks and then unshield and move. Not only do you move safely away from the puddles you dont get poisoned or catch on fire either.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 21:24
#35
Realnight's picture
Realnight
Just get a dragon scale set

Just get a dragon scale set with a low poison and fire UV on either of the pieces and enjoy immunity from both the green fire and poison - makes soloing a walk in the park.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 21:43
#36
Redblades's picture
Redblades
soloing

it isn't that hard to be honest. I ran it with full shadowsun -.- and a barbarous thorn shield. no fire resist at all, but it was fine. you just need to be careful and know how to get out of situations taking the least damage. carry a shadow damage gun, polaris (always handy to have a knockback machine xD) acheron/gf and maybe a shivermist to hold down the first spawn on arenas.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 07:35
#37
Nordlead's picture
Nordlead
It is called a danger mission

It is called a danger mission for a reason. I think all 3 danger missions should have been harder, but that is me.

I do agree that the charge attack (unusually long and no tell) is unfair. Add a quick tell, and I'm fine with how they act.

Normal oil doesn't inflict status unless it is on fire. Toxic oil tries to poison you, so it makes sense. Before I got poison imunity I had no problem getting poisoned if it meant I got out alive and still having a shield. You can actually avoid this problem by not rushing into things and using a slightly more cautious approach.

Fire + Poison imunity is actually very easy to achieve and no UVs are required, but you'll probably be givng up on some type of defense and offensive bonuses. All you need is Max + Max + low (I use Max + Med + high for my fire resist).

So for my loadout I have Dragon Scale Helm Fire Med UV (max + med fire, max poison) and Snarbolax Fire High UV (high fire, high poison) and a 5* poison resist trinket, which gives me enough to be imune to poison & fire from toxic gel. The only thing I had to make for this mission was the Dragon Scale Helm. I actually could have had fire + poison imunity without making the helm because I used to use Crown of the Fallen for SL snarby and FSC runs.

As the only fire + poison imune party member (typically) I take it on myself to make sure things don't get set on fire. I run to the gremlins and kill them before they can ignite things. I run to the polyps and stop the slime spawning. Doing this in a PUG makes things go much smoother.

As for going solo, well that is your choice. I haven't tried C42 solo, but then again I don't really like to go solo at all. I've solo'd Legion of Almire and I could probably solo the other two no problem if I really wanted to. If I'm going solo I prefer to play regular clockworks and open up all the danger rooms.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:16
#38
Diamondshreddie's picture
Diamondshreddie
I love compound 42!!!!

Omg, Compound 42 is SUCH a fun mission!!! and its not too hard, although i probably would have cut my deaths to about only 1, if only tf2 didnt decide to update and chew up bandwidth XD

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