Spiral Knights - Knights of Christ discussion thread

Knights of Christ discussion thread

58 replies [Last post]

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:16

Thinslayer

Hello, everyone.

Bluearceus and I have agreed to create a guild event wherein the members discuss Biblical matters together. Everyone is invited to join in the discussion, provided they have something profitable to add. Since I cannot be online in Spiral Knights because of college, this event must be held on the forums.

Without further ado, I shall begin with the most critical topic:
What is saving faith?

Faith in general is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen." In plainer English, it's being certain of things you joyfully expect and convinced of something you can't see.

After a good deal of thought on the matter, I am drawn to the conclusion that saving faith is "faith in Christ's assumption of our sin and in God's statements regarding our moral condition." In short, it's belief that we are sinners and that Christ died to justify us.

Any questions, comments, or objections?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:22

Trying

This won't turn out good

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:24

Njthug

@Trying

Have faith

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:25

Rangerwillx

I recommend you graveyarding this immediately, as in a game like this there this will just end up turning into a huge religious argument. Please make a whole new forum for your guild.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:27

Trying

I do have faith - in the trolls of the forum.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:28

Thinslayer

Then guildies only.

Then I shall relegate this thread to guildies-only, if it helps. I am not well-versed in web design, and cannot easily create my own website.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:33

Njthug

@Thinslayer

Try moving the thread to: Treasure Vault, Guild Area, or Gremlin Chatter =)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:33

Smit

wrong place for this

General Discussion - Discuss Spiral Knights
Gremlin Chatter - discuss things of a non-Spiral bent.

Religious discussion has nothing to do with Spiral Knights, so either take it to Gremlin Chatter, or if you want to discuss things with only your guild members, there are plenty of places to set up a free forum.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:35

Artistbma

Indeed. This game has people

Indeed. This game has people of different religions playing it. This will not end well.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:36

Thinslayer

Ah...

Thank you, Smit. I was wondering about that.

Problem is, how do I move threads? Or is that an admin-only job?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:37

#10

Thinslayer

@Artistbma

The thing is, this thread isn't for people of other religions. It's for Christians. People of other religions may post, but as I said in the OP, only if they have something profitable to add to the discussion.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:40

#11

Derpules

Well, you can't actually stop them.

But good luck! :)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:41

#12

Sweet-Hope

edit your first post there

edit your first post there should be the option to move your thread to another forum category. good luck!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:44

#13

Aumir

But...

But I want Thor to throw the nukes and later on see the great flood from Arcadia.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:47

#14

Lightyourfire

Editted for your sake

Derp

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:53

#15

Pauling

Aka the Knights Templar?

I don't think that creating a guild-centered thread in general discussions is the way to go. Guild recruitment is perhaps the closest section in these forums.

On the other hand, aside from the relevance to SK game discussion, I don't understand how the existence of players with other religious beliefs makes a discussion of christianity inappropriate or offensive. I may not agree with every doctrinal point of the church down the street, but if they want to welcome others to join an honest and open discussion, far be it from anyone to charge in and disrupt their mass in the name of promoting "tolerance".

Hopefully we can extend the same courtesy to our forum neighbors that we do to our neighbors in real life.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:02

#16

Michaelb

@Lightyourfire: Ooh! so there are other science-loving atheists out there?! I'm surprised! I'm not the only one! >..>

Ahm... Is this legal?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:59

#17

Thinslayer

Interesting assortment of replies...

@Lightyourfire: EDIT: for your sake, my reply to your earlier post has been edited out.

@Pauling: Since this is not exactly a recruitment thread, I think Smit's recommendation is more accurate.

In any case, I agree. I think the "tolerance" movement has been twisted into an anti-1st-Amendment movement. I can easily tolerate other religions without agreeing with them. In fact, communication between members of different religions could, in theory, make tolerance easier because they understand each other better. Discussion, or even disagreement, between religions shouldn't be stifled, but made open in a civil and appropriate manner.

Of course, when things get heated, they get really heated, so caution is always advised. ;)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:10

#18

Thinslayer

@Michaelb

If it isn't legal, it sure ought to be, courtesy of the 1st Amendment in the Constitution of the United States of America.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:14

#19

Derpules

Well, it's certainly not illegal, so the point is moot.

But the whole world isn't America, plus the 1st Amendment protects the individual's rights as against the State, not as against other individuals. OOO is neither American nor part of the State. They are free to suppress whatever speech they like.

Really, it is tiresome how someone must point this out every time. Can you guys at least study your own Constitution before using it as a stick to beat people with? Thanks.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:30

#20

Thinslayer

@Derpules

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This does not, in and of itself, prevent the states from restricting freedom of speech; it only prevents the Congress from doing so. It is also implied that this free speech should not be used to cause legal harm.

The tolerance movement has infiltrated the government, however, so 1st Amendment concerns still apply. And the government still has the power (if not the right) to arrest me for what I say online.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:43

#21

Lightyourfire

Nothing

Blankpostisblank

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:35

#22

Doctorspacebar

@Lightyourfire

No doubt he was finishing his reply while you changed it. Just because you edited it away doesn't mean you never said it.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:41

#23

Lightyourfire

Nothing to put here

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:01

#24

Thinslayer

@Lightyourfire

EDIT: Due to a misunderstanding, this post has been edited out.

Shadow copy removed from the General Discussion.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:40

#25

Lightyourfire

Alright

Thank you, my work here is done

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:42

#26

Evilduck

You're arrogant and need to

You're arrogant and need to remove your head from your own rear end if you think you have any right to tell us who can post here and what we can post about. "People of other religions may post, but as I said in the OP, only if they have something profitable to add to the discussion." what gives you the right to stop me posting? If I want to post saying Christianity is bollocks, I can (I don't think it is, but you get the point). And this "I tolerate but don't accept you" is bollocks but I'll refrain from getting into that. <.<

I advise you create your own forum (it's really not a difficult task, just use one of the simple ones or even a google doc for Christ's sake*) for this. You can't stop anyone outside of your guild posting here, nor can you control what we post.

*heehee

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:57

#27

Thinslayer

@Evilduck

I know I can't control what other people post, and accounted for it. I can ignore posts I don't like just as easily as you can post them. The point in saying it was to play your moral sensibilities. You can make a trolling post if you like, but if you do, you automatically mark yourself as a rude and uncaring player.

I win either way. If you are civil, I win because we all benefit from the civil discussion. If you troll, I win because your non-compliance with a reasonable request makes me look good in comparison.

/grin

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:36

#28

Skyguarder

Is this a thread to talk about religons?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:44

#29

Thinslayer

@Benightz

Sort of. It's a thread to interpret the Bible and to logically analyze ideas and concepts derived from it. If you think that a particular religion has something of value to say on the subject, feel free to discuss it.

I don't really want to derail this thread. :/

So back to the topic. What is saving faith?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 19:31

#30

Michaelb

(Accidental post)

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 21:59

#31

Thinslayer

@Michaelb

Whatever your accidental post was, I didn't get to read it. ;)

If you have something to add to the discussion, please do.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 22:09

#32

Softhead

I just need to ask.

Have you seen that "Gay Marrige in New york" Thread?

What were your reactions on some of the comments?

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 23:00

#33

Autofire

Heh

while I'm okay with it all (Christian, btw) I don't think all the community feels the same about it. Hmm, that is interesting, though. I wonder what the reaction would be if I made a Christian guild? Thanks for the idea. :P

Oh, and Atrum, I saw that. Um, I didn't really understand why that was needed on the forums. >.>

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 05:19

#34

Iamnoone

Atrumvindex if you have a

Atrumvindex if you have a problem with gay marriages or homosexuality maybe you should be addressing it in the gay marriages thread. Or maybe you should consider that fact that most homophobes are latent homosexuals who fear their true inner self.

Saving faith could be a simple statement regarding keeping your faith, religion or what you know to be true, as in don't forget or walk away from it.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 16:41

#35

Thinslayer

Very interesting replies

@Atrumvindex: read 1 Corinthians 6:9 to see my opinion on homosexuality. Google the reference.

@Autofire: I can guarantee that the reaction would be interesting. ;)

@Iamnoone: So, are you saying that you think persistent faith has something to do with salvation?

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 21:58

#36

Iamnoone

Yes, darling, most

Yes, darling, most definitely.

To know and love God; To not worship other gods; To keep the Sabbath; To repent and ask for forgiveness; To do what we know to be right and true. The bible is filled with many references to the promise of persistent faith and the rewards in the afterlife.

Matthew 6:16-24

16 "Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face 18 so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear , your whole body will be full of light. 23 "But if your eye is bad , your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth .

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 12:15

#37

Gwenyvier

Non-Christian, all I will say

Non-Christian, all I will say on that particular matter. But to the people posting the 1st Amendment stuff the 1st Amendment provides several freedoms. The freedom of religion and freedom of speech being the two that apply to this thread. Freedom of speech is actually 4 rights under one name: the right to speak, the right not to speak, the right to listen, and the right not to listen.

That being said... just because you have the right to say anything you want does not mean there are no repercussions (as a certain chicken based restaurant chain has found out recently). Also the freedom of speech only counts towards the government... forums are technically private property, and thus you can be censored, just like in real life if you are making a scene at a place you can be told to get out.

As long as the thread does not turn into the land of flames I say let them have their topic. You can have a different opinion and still be respectful. Goddess knows I do (most of the time). If you really need/want a place to talk about your religion you can create a thread like this one also.

Good luck on your thread Thinslayer.

~Gwen

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 16:03

#38

Softhead

Iam,

I'm christian and I am neutral on the matter.

How hyprocitical though, we are told to love thy neighbour, yet we have to be hating on gays.

And then we have those fanatics...

The reactions shocked me.

No more on this topic.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 16:50

#39

Michaelb

Hmph! If that's your opinion, I'm not going to stay here. Not very avant-garde, are you? Well, I vote we turn this thread into a three word game. Maybe.

Actually, I find the religion itself to be very intriguing, partly because it urges you to "love thy neighbor" but it hates on those different from it, depending on how serious you are about respecting the wishes of the New Testament.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 18:37

#40

Redlawlsy

I know your trying to do good dude but...

Never make something like this on the internet.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 19:32

#41

Iamnoone

Galatians 3:28-29 (King James

Galatians 3:28-29 (King James Version)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

@ Atrumvindex
The bible does not teach to hate gays. Quite opposite it teaches we that we should know God and be more Christ like or Christian. We should not kill which includes ones spirit. It teaches that sex is for procreation and that sexual gratification for other purposes is a sin of the body. But God has created all to be in his likeness. That all things are good. Gays could be closer to God or more God like than heterosexuals. Our sexual form is an Earthly or human entity. When we die we return to God/heaven as a spirit or energy, one that is quite possibly sexless. A-sexual or bi-sexual may be more like it. Homosexual discrimination maybe the last horizon standing in between us and being truly God like. Are you capable of truly loving another being irregardless of their sexual form? God does.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 21:53

#42

Thinslayer

Learn the difference

We are commanded to love everyone, which includes homosexuals. Hating on anybody is a sin. This does not mean that we have to agree with, or even accept, homosexuality.

How is this possible?

Well, first off, the homosexuals and their practices are different concepts. If what you do is who you are, then I pity you.

Secondly, the best answer is in the definitions. Scriptural "love" is defined as "the keeping of the law." Read Romans 13:8-10 for a more detailed explanation. Accepting sin and perverted sexual behavior is not one of the commands of the law. Accepting sinners is a very different story, and the wisdom of such an act is highly situational.

Like I wrote in the subject line, learn the difference between "love" and "acceptance." They are very different ideas.

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 22:06

#43

Softhead

Sorry, sorry.

I'm just irked how others mistake that.

My knowledge of most passages+ Crap like Westboro Baptist Church kinda shocks me about it.

Can some of us not really get the messages?

I mean you don't have to like it, yes tolerance is different.....

But there is people who decide to do that instead of being tolerant......

Fri, 08/24/2012 - 22:20

#44

Thinslayer

@Atrumvindex

You are now on my (unofficial) list of respected persons. Not many of the people I've met have been able to recognize the difference; you would be one of the few.

/salute Atrumvindex

@Iamnoone: Bear in mind that the verse refers to Christians. If there be gay people who are truly Christian (but have obviously slipped), then they too would apply to Galatians 3:28-29. I have no problem with that. But if you read 1 Corinthians, it will become obvious that sinful behavior should not be tolerated in the church. So, I still have a problem with the unrepentant homosexuality of gay Christians. This is discrimination against sin, not against those who commit it.

After all, back in the day, it wasn't a sin to be a Greek (Gentile). It was a sin to act like one.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 05:33

#45

Iamnoone

It also says in the bible

It also says in the bible that we should not judge. That it is God's job.
Let he with no sin throw the first stone.

The bible does not teach to be quick and harshly judge others, to hate and persecute and to decide who should get to be Christian or not. That kind of thinking is more like someone who is using the bible to support a Hitler or Klan type of mentality.

Sat, 08/25/2012 - 08:34

#46

Thinslayer

@Iamnoone

A lot of people like to quote John 8:7 as a way to shut up others who disagree. I don't know for certain what it means, but considering that we must interpret Scripture in light of itself, I can guarantee that it does not mean that we shouldn't judge people. Don't be one of those people who takes verses out of context and pits them against the rest of Scripture.

The Bible does not actually command us to avoid judging. It commands us to avoid judging hypocritically. Read Matthew 7:1-3.

Also bear in mind the differing definitions of "judgement." There is the lesser kind that involves "sizing up," "measuring," or "comparing," and then there is the greater kind that involves "punishing" and "sentencing," and is typically performed in a court of law. We all perform the first kind of judgement; it's how our lives work, and is indispensable. The second kind of judgement is irrelevant to this discussion, since we are not condemning homosexuals to hell. That's God's job, and I couldn't take part in it even if I wanted to.

Your final paragraph is beating up a straw man. I agree that the Bible does not teach us to judge hastily. Rather, it teaches us to judge correctly; read John 7:24. But I never claimed to decide who gets to be Christian or not. God decides that, and he has shown us the guidelines of his decisions in Scripture. And as aforesaid, I don't hate or persecute anybody, and you are wasting your time addressing it.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 17:06

#47

Doctorspacebar

Difference between a judge and a jury.

The "lesser kind of judgment" detailed in the post above me is what a jury does.

The "greater kind" is what a judge does.

Basically, the most man can reach on earth (without sinning) is 'jury' status; any more, and you get man acting as judge, jury, and executioner, and that usually leads to things like the Spanish Inquisition. People should not not be judges (except, perhaps, in the criminal justice system, and even then only against those convicted of a crime, and even they cannot decide the final punishment the man receives), they should instead be juries.

Persecution is never a Christian act. God has specifically said he will punish persecutors.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 18:58

#48

Thinslayer

@Doctorspacebar

No, you're judging me right now. You analyzed what I've said, and after having read it, you formed an opinion of both me and my statements. That opinion is your "judgement" of me. That's what I'm referring to. You wouldn't be alive without this kind of judgement. You can't not judge in this way; it's impossible.

But don't we also call punishment "judgement," e.g., "the king exacted judgement upon his enemy?" Obviously, this doesn't mean that the king exacted opinion-making on his enemy.

What most people seem to mean by "judgement" nowadays seems to be a combination of the two. They don't want others to make opinions of them (judgement) that would be punishing to them (judgement).

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 19:01

#49

Gzilla

trying was right, this isn't

trying was right, this isn't going good.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 19:06

#50

Thinslayer

@Gzilla

This is going pretty well, actually. Most of the posters here have kept their cool, and nobody has insulted anybody yet. Strong disagreement is not a bad thing; strong disagreement mixed with personal attacks is a bad thing. We're all still getting somewhere without burning each other to the ground, so the discussion is going fabulously.

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Knights of Christ discussion thread