it does see i didnt read the entire thing.....
this might take a while...........
We need a discussion about Lockdown
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 17:23
#52
hmmm....
Sat, 08/25/2012 - 19:46
#53
Please read before typing,
Please read before typing, Midnight
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 17:24
#54
..........
....................
Sat, 08/25/2012 - 20:03
#55
...
*cricket sound appears nowhere*
Sat, 08/25/2012 - 20:29
#56
Starts flippIng tables.
Starts flippIng tables.
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Sat, 08/25/2012 - 21:14
#57
Oh Hai Seiran!
The DVS thing is more of a joke loadout wep I use when I feel more like harassing the other team rather than actually fight them. When i actually want to kill them I just use a GF. I prefer being more like an assassin than a gunner, so I have no gripes about dying in closequarter fights.
I second the OP - a new recon guide would be awesome, I could use a few pointers. I think you killed me a few times earlier today. I'll make it a point to get you back eventually!
I usually pale in comparison to better players like htat one match with Ancientdragon, Laxiuspower, you, and some others earlier today but I've been doing better in other games. A good swing from the GF out of stealth killed 3 players standing on the cap at once. For reasons like that, I'm reluctant to quit w/ recon.
@OP: I've only seen youtube vids, but Super Brawl was apparently some kind of test-game that was more like a free-for-all death match. Lots of people being slapped around with GFs and DAs.
@Redblades: LD can be fixed. I'm positivve that it will be evened out in the future but to say that there is nothing to fix is like denial. That's all IMHO, but I can't help but disagree. I wouldn't want strikers to go away but I definitely think they could stand to be rebalanced - They have too much of a monopoly on the playing field.
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 09:04
#58
DVS isn't a joke
DVS isn't a joke weapon.......... =[
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 14:16
#59
Thank you for your replies
Thank you Askulan, Thrillhaus, Icegill, Seiran and Thunderbog for your respective posts on Super Brawl and further info on invinciframes. Seeing that video posted, it looks a little too chaotic for my tastes, but having not played it who would I be to judge? If it ever gets officially implemented into the full game (aside from test servers) I hope they polish it up.
At the time of typing, I'm getting more and more of the feeling that a lot of the inadequacies of Spiral Knights PvP could be solved just by lessening the damage of all weapons. I'm speaking only what I perceive to be the problem, so if anyone knows why Three Rings has kept the damage as it is, feel free to give me some insight or why they decided to keep PvP damage as it is as we know it.
Reading more comments, I get the sense that I must further elaborate.
While I have my gripes with strikers, it is not them alone. A lot of what makes strikers, in my opinion, so overpowered is the gear they use. The power and function of swords in the Flourish family, the fact that most wolver armors are horribly imbalanced, and the ability of any smart striker to equip dual penta-heart pendants to over-come their class restraints makes them broken.
In other words, I do not want to hock up too much of my bile on strikers. There are other aspects of lockdown that seem overlooked. If anyone wants to bring it up, please do so.
Once again, mostly in order:
====
* Redblades:
I get the sense that you more or less skimmed my original post. Although I find it hard to argue and discuss points with somebody just because they did not have the patience to read and get full understanding of what I intend of where I am coming from in my arguments I will at least try.
I guess I can give you credit for picking up that I find strikers in their current state to be overpowered. However, you assume I want to even out the classes by nerfing them. This is not entirely the case. I've played many an MMO where the developers have thought to pander to PvP complaints by buffing or nerfing certain moves or entire class stats only to create a new "Over-powered" class that just takes it's place. Like the Hydra of greek mythology, you can't kill the beast simply just by lobbing off heads.
There are more ways to balance a class or a gear set than just making it less effective - my own thoughts favor re-balance by instead further specializing their roles so they can no longer be the super-powered omni-class they currently exist as. I want them to be re-purposed for a specific role, as the recons and guardians have to abide by.
Guardians play a specific role as minor healers/point guards that solidify cap point defense. Name-dropping pro guardians who can single-handedly win games is an exception to the rule and thus does not affect the fact that most guardians can not do that. Hence, I find your point on Cyrilmorrigane to be moot. Power to them, but they are not nearly as common-place as the hoard of strikers able to do the exact same.
I found your comment on "some just being more weak than others" to be down-right stagnant. That simply should not be. Instead they should all have different weaknesses - a different counter for each play style; recons can not have infinite cloaks, guardians can not have invincible shields, and strikers should not have the highest attack damage and speed while also having more health than a vanilla guardian. At that point, the game is broken, as the class has no true weaknesses or counters at that point.
While I strongly disagree with you, I do not think you are ignorant or stupid; I think you are not seeing the disparity between classes due to your own bias because you already have so much invested in keeping your monopoly of power as the striker class. I believe that it therefore makes you a poor judge of what is fair.
To end: I don't think I am either. I want LD fixed, but I am not making suggestions. this is because I too am a poor judge of game fairness and player equality; that is why I wanted this discussion, to have the player community come together and discuss their gripes and their insight on PvP and the metagame to better define what is "fair". I do not agree or even like your philosophy on the classes, but I am glad that at the very least you contributed.
====
*Midnight-Wing:
You didn't read my post either, did you? I mean, I at least read your entire posts as much as it pains me to do so. Regardless, I'll still try anyways.
Most of your counter-arguments seem more like crude attacks on the way you assume I play. For your information, I prefer playing a gunner recon or a heavy swords guardian. When I'm not a guardian I rarely stand out in the open in a single spot for too long. I feel that your assumptions of me and my skill as a player are unfounded and inaccurate.
I don't have much else to really respond to in your first post because it all seems to be just a poorly-made implication that I am mad because I am a poor player or too new to come up with any of those "strategies" myself. I feel that is a disingenuous way to express your own fear of your own favorite class losing some power and playing fair.
Also, on a non sequitur note: your spelling and grammar make it very hard for me to take you seriously. I can't decide if it's your earnest typing or if you're intentionally trying to be annoying.
By all means, keep posting. I can't say you're really helping anyone by making such off-mark assumptions and attacks, but I feel it would be against the purpose of this thread if I told you expressly to leave.
Not that I really have the power to do so anyways.
====
* Xcelestialneon:
Stop doing that; those are my tables and I'm the one who has to pay to have them replaced. You don't see me going to your threads and wrecking your furniture.
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 14:26
#60
Ah, invinciframes.
I miss them so much.
DR was so much fun.
Been playing T2 as a Striker, in a Quicksilver Helm and Fencing Jacket- partially because I like the extra Shock resistance better than Freeze resistance, partially because I don't feel like using 400 CE on full Dusker, and partially because I'm a bit of a gear hipster- to reach VH total damage with my favored weapon, the Grintovec. I also have a Shadowtech Mk II. Any tips?
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 14:32
#61
you should have wear a recon
you should have wear a recon cloak
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 14:59
#62
Perfect. Timing.
That. Was. Perfect.
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 15:20
#63
@Redblades
I've encountered Skolvers resisting both Stagger Storm and Voltaic Tempest. Let me reiterate that in a way that emphasizes how ridiculous that is:
He was immune to Shivermist Buster.
He was immune to Stagger Storm.
He was immune to Voltaic Tempest.
He had dual penta-heart trinkets.
Since this was skolver armour and not even Ice Queen, he still had Max damage bonus.
Look, this is how a game of rock-paper-scissors go.
Rock is caught in paper, paper is cut up by scissors, scissors cannot cut rock.
And this is Lockdown:
Rock is circle-strafed and bullet-spammed by paper, paper is cut up by scissors, scissors got himself a rock-cutting UV and is as such immune to rocks. Meanwhile, there are no UVs or trinkets to immunize yourself from scissors, only protect yourself a pitiful amount, and rock doesn't even have any armours with any kind of scissor-protection.
I'm not saying remove the ability to be immune to certain haze bombs, but it should come at a price! That expensive armour is still going to benefit you because you will still be able to be immune to shock in your skolver set provided you also combine it with a trinket. Get a freeze UV on it and skolvers are still perfectly capable of being immune to three haze bombs. Meanwhile, people in Ice Queen sets can get to use heart trinkets because they've got UVs on top of the armour's existing stun and freeze resists. Only thing is he might want a shock trinket, too.
I'm talking about limiting the ability to be completely immune to an entire weapon type here, man. Is that really so bad? Would you like it if it was possible to be immune to toothpick damage?
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 16:45
#64
@Zeddy
I think I mentioned this before, but double max shock is not immune to Shocking Salt Bomb. No immunity to all of the bomb type here.
trollface
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 18:47
#65
Pfft, SSB.
About as likely to hit a Skolver with that as my DS to turn into a monster in the next two seconds after I type this.
...it didn't turn into a monster, see? Because I'm still alive and my DS is not gnawing on my bones. (You know I'm alive because I'm typing this with good grammar. Dead bodies are very bad at grammar.)
Yeah, a Haze-bomber has little to no chance against a properly maxed-out Skolver. The worst is, you can't tell until you notice they're walking through both Hazes without breaking a sweat. Can't do that against a Final Flourish- double max Pierce is, what, 1 extra hit? Maybe 2?
The biggest problem is UVs doing that. You want to walk through VT, you should have to get yourself some Mercurial, or just double Max UVs plus a Shock trinket.
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 19:05
#66
Took my SSB into LD when it came out....
Never had I felt so useless. The opposing team doesn't fear it and walk all over it. In fact when someone else on the other team is using it I walk all over it without a care in the world. And that says a lot, because I wear chaos and shock is basically a death sentence for me. The old ISB was more useful, and that was when it was the worst bomb ever. I don't understand why OOO did LD testing of the new shards bombs. Unless they wanted to make sure the new bombs became the worst PvP bombs.... I would have done better with a Nitronome. It's predictable, but at least they can't walk over it.
Sun, 08/26/2012 - 19:38
#67
@Sir-Lancaster
The reason why Three Rings can't change PvP damage is because they'd be putting a differential gap between PvE and PvP which is not something they would want to do? Why? They would probably want the entire game to be the same in almost every aspect. Lockdown was set for it to be a PART of the game so they aren't thinking much on it in comparison to, per say, the upcoming guild update or PvE expansions. Honestly, lessening damage won't do any more harm than good. There are so many small problems that can make this game unenjoyable to different people. Most common one being, "SPAMMER!111".
Such little problems like that can't be fixed. The only way of improving little problems like that could be by banning all noobs or simply putting a tutorial of Lockdown. I've come across various people who dislike lockdown for simple reasons of AT and spam. All these problems can probably be fixed in code or mechanically without a doubt, but how? In some sort of balanced way, in some sort of way to not tick off anyone. It seems impossible to me.
But for those people like you, Sir-Lancaster. Who have a head, can think smartly of things have no problem playing lockdown because they understand the things happening around them in LD. Unlike some 4* coming in and saying, "WOW TEAMED AGAIN BY SPAM-FULL CLONES," who don't understand a thing.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 10:38
#68
@Icegill
Reducing the damage, alone it wouldn't do much, but together with the removal of invincible frames it could do a lot. A lot of people complained during the "Lockdown bug" that they were dying too fast. As much fun as it was during this time, I can see where they are coming from. Simply reducing the damage of everything would slow down how fast people die.
I don't really see spam as a big issue. You are gonna attack repeatedly with any weapon you use. Some just wildly attack with it. Some weapons attack faster than others, creating what some call "spam". As for AT, it becomes a liability against a good side-stepper. Once people catch on to this it will be less of an issue. Also you are right about one thing: Almost any fix to anything will cause some hate, that is inevitable. People just learn to live with it.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 08:39
#69
Well,
It has invincibility frames for the player on PVE, so I guess it based on that. Sill, it should be removed from lockdown.
There are weapons that areuseless thanks to such frames, such as the cutter and the autoguns. And not just that, but reducing damage of weapons also would only make the heart pendants even more an unfair advantage on the PvP.
Spamming requires no skill. Anyone can shoot polaris twice before he holds for a second and then shoot another two bullets, and repeats all over. And flourishes are overpowered, since they have high range, speed and a fair amount of power.
And another thing i'd like to see changed would be the stagger-on-hit. If nothing is fixed, then at least let us attack while we are being stabbed by toothpicks.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 08:52
#70
@Trollingyou
I said in almost every aspect :P.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 10:51
#71
Invincibility frames are
Invincibility frames are good. Without them, a striker (or team of strikers) was able to come in from the south (off screen) and kill a shielded guardian before that player even had a chance to respond. Capturing kind of sucked. Internet games inherently involve some time delay, and invincibility frames stretch out the timescale of combat to something that allows people to effectively fight on an equal footing. No pvp game should grant such an overwhelming advantage to the person who moves first.
When invincibility frames were removed, teams of skolvers could spawn camp and score easy instakills- far from being fun, it made gameplay feel cheap and tacky.
Some proposed class changes:
- The guardian shield should take damage per attack swing, not per person hit. It should not be possible to one-shot a shield just because your teammates bunched up for a quarter of a second (especially if attacked from off screen while trying to capture). Good faith efforts to avoid shield breaking events are hindered by the realities of Internet lag- I routinely drop my shield when I see it in danger of breaking, only for the server to decide that it was still up half a second later. Ideally the shield would also be buffed slightly. I might even favor a reduced regen/ recovery time over adding more health.
- Status effects that do not inflict damage should not break the recon cloak. (venom veiler, stun bomb, etc) It's too easy to create "recon free" games by mist bombing outside the locker room on a map like gardens. Recons would still be subject to the status effect, but losing invisibility because of poison is silly.
- The health gap between strikers and other classes should be widened by giving other classes slightly more base health. It should not be possible for 5* trinkets to totally cancel the weaknesses of a class designed to be a glass cannon. (since it's only 5* trinkets that go all the way, perhaps the health gap should be scaled by tier?)
- The time it takes for shields to regenerate should be equalized across all classes. At present, it seems that strikers get their boost back before guardian shields recover. (Timing: Strikers recover their full boost after ~3 seconds. Guardians gradually begin to regenerate after ~6-8 seconds; recons gradually begin to regenerate after ~3 seconds)
Incidentally, does the guardian shield heal at the same rate in tiers 1 and 3? Given the disparity in base player health, some sort of tier based scaling might be appropriate for the healing rate, as well as for the health gap between classes.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 10:25
#72
Except you're wrong,
Because toothpick strikers are still capable of spamming against guardians. even with invincible frames. I've seen it myself. And those frames are bad because it makes some weapons (two lines in particular) useless.
Good way to fix this is to not let the player get his attack cancelled if he gets hurt and to remove them, so more weapons can be a bit more viable.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 10:38
#73
Invincibility frames are not good
@Icegill Sorry, I misread that. the post has been fixed.
@Pauling
It has been mention and explained so much before, but I will say it here again. Invincibility frames renders many weapons useless (not less viable, useless) and prevents the damage of a crowd attacking one guy. Fast weapons like antiguas, DR, and cutters cannot work like they are supposed because the frames prevent a good portion of their hits from doing damage. Charges that hit multiple times instantly (like suda/triglav and FoV) also share the same fate. Yes, people died near instantly when the frames were gone. That is why many of us suggested a damage reduction to all damage in lockdown to prevent this from happening.
Yes, most everyone agrees that the guardian shield needs to be tougher. They should be able to tank hits.
I was not aware that non-damaging statuses removed the recon cloak. I have cloaked while shocked and on fire and nothing happened until the actual damage came. I think this is happening for the same reason why mist pings the guardian shield.
Yes, strikers can get too much health. But I don't think that giving other classes more health is the best approach. Even if this happened, strikers with pentas will still be tanky. The idea is to make them into the glass cannon they are supposed to be. Increasing that health penalty on striker for T2 and T3 has been brought up 9001 times in the past. Don't know why some do not catch on to this.
Striker shield regenerates to full instantly, the other two are gradually. This makes it possible for strikers to spam the boost without much worry.
Not sure if the heal rate on guardian shield is different for the different tiers. Would be interesting to find out though.
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 14:14
#74
" Fast weapons like antiguas,
" Fast weapons like antiguas, DR, and cutters cannot work like they are supposed because the frames prevent a good portion of their hits from doing damage."
Thus diminishing the advantage of using +Dmg bonuses.
X%*[Jack spit] is still Jack spit
----------Whereas--------------
X%*[300] is something to consider.
~Luke
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 14:19
#75
T3 "pros" should stay far away from T2LD.
I left T3LD because the whole thing is OP and Im playing with the Brute Line and Jelly Items :) but im seeing more and more douches coming in with ASI UVs and Pierce Resist UVs
Mon, 08/27/2012 - 14:51
#76
It actually makes +DMG bonuses more valuable
Because invinicframes only allow so may hits within a given time, you want to make the most of those hits. Speed will not help your damage because there is a hard cap on how many times you can hit in a given time, so more hits is not possible. This along with the fact that you cannot get +DMG bonuses with UVs makes damage bonuses much more valuable than the others. You can get ASI and CTR with UVs, not to mention that every weapon comes with medium CTR bonus when fully heated.
Tue, 08/28/2012 - 04:46
#77
Yeah I guess if you think
Yeah I guess if you think about it like this....
Loadout A will kill you in 3 hits with *OR* without +Dmg bonuses
Loadout B (antigua line) will kill you in 8 hits or 7 hits with full +Dmg bonus
Lulzy either way. Also speed shouldnt be entirely discounted because while it wont help with damage it will certainly provide more oppurtunities to deal said damage before getting whacked.
Wed, 08/29/2012 - 02:48
#78
@Seiran
Not good enough. Let's make a comparison:
Shocking Salt Bomb:
-5*.
-Costs at least 1100CE and a bunch of crowns and mats.
-Makes a tiny blast that's easy to dodge followed by smaller blasts that are easy to dodge.
-Inflicts shock, which is not the best status to inflict i,n Lockdown. VT is popular because Freeze immunity is moreso.
-Impossible go 1v1 with.
-Pretty cool if you're supported though.
Cold Snap
-0*.
-Costs 10ME and not much more.
-You even get one from a mission that has CTR med right there! Pretty viable for strikers out of the box.
-Makes a blast large enough to cover an entire control point cover about the same area that SSB does, but quicker.
-Inflicts freeze, which is the best status to inflict in Lockdown. I have killed skolvers and ice queens in Lockdown. Not just frozen, leading them to get killed by others. I've single-handedly murdered them. Once that freeze sets in, I can just keep prolonging the freeze duration by planting more Cold Snaps until they die from it. Yes, this happened in Tier 3.
-Because of above properties, it's the best bomb you can possibly get for a 1v1.
-Also amazing if you're supported.
Tue, 08/28/2012 - 20:04
#79
So sad..
That a 0* bomb is more useful than the SSB.... a 0* bomb that is given for free with a good UV....... So OOO, did you want it to suck horribly in LD? Was there a reason you had that LD testing or did you just want people to throw money at you to test it?
/e stares at his SSB, wanting his beautiful, actually usefully if used right old ISB
Uh, yeah.
Some had their our playstyles, some chose only to kill, some chose to captures, some, maybe chose to tease the game by being a pacifist(some sort of troll, maybe?)
(I understand how it feels when we're finding some words to speak and yet we have to use words that are simple to pronounce, I'm not a great speaker either)