Status Effects: Minor vs Moderate vs Strong?
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 12:50
I mentioned it in a random post but no one was able to answer, and there is a similar topic nearby but I kind of just want to know what's the difference between them all. At least among the current main status effects.
Freeze, Fire, Poison.
I'm not downplaying the other status effects, I just don't see them occur as often (even curse with faust-ers). But if you have details on those, that's great too.
Example:
Cold snap has a Good chance of causing "moderate" freeze. Whereas Freezing Atomizer has a good chance of causing "minor" freeze. But I'm fairly sure that the Freezing Atomizer freeze lasts longer than a cold snap freeze.[and I don't just mean the fact that the radius stays around for awhile]
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 13:30
#2
hmm, really? So that means an
hmm, really? So that means an enemy frozen from a cold snap would take more damage than one frozen from a freezing atomizer when thawed out?
I'm assuming the order is minor->moderate->strong of course
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 13:39
#3
Having never tested, I
Having never tested, I wouldn't know. All I know is based off of the potions, and I would assume that the weakest potions do minor freezing effects while the strongest potions do strong freezing effects. A single example of empirical testing obviously isn't enough in this case, so I recommend someone out there use a fiery atomizer on something flammable, then use a fireburst brandish against another something flammable (same type of something on the same level) and compare damage ticks.
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 13:47
#4
Alright, for myself I'll try
Alright, for myself I'll try to take a look at cold snap vs atomizer if I can tomorrow (or whenever I play again). When I compared before I was using someone else to use the cold snap, so I couldn't see how much damage the enemy took from thawing out from their bomb.
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 14:01
#5
means
means I've got to try firecracker xD
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 16:57
#6
Well the reason I suggested
Well the reason I suggested an atomizer versus a brandish is the atomizers are listed as "minor" afflictions while the brandishes are listed as "strong" afflictions, so the effects will be much more pronounced. But even an atomizer versus a cold snap/firecracker would clear things up I suppose.
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 18:47
#7
One result...
Armed with the winning combination of a Freezing Vaporizer and a Cold Snap, I decided to test it out. The vaporizer has "Good Chance of Causing Minor Freeze". The Cold Snap has "Good Chance of Causing Moderate Freeze". Long story short: on depth one, the "thaw" damage against fiends (the only thing I was able to test on, but they're neutral to elemental, eliminating that as a factor) was 14-15 with both weapons across a variety of enemies. (Healing Fairies, a few different colors of those bat things, and a few different colors of those pudgy office fiends.) It would be great if someone else could corroborate this. The weapons were (conveniently) both level 5, and I'm not wearing anything that affects bomb damage or anything. (Not that I'd expect that to have an effect, but just for comparison.)
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 19:00
#8
At that depth though I'd
At that depth though I'd expect their damage to be similar, the vaporizer is being nerfed by the level since it's a 2 star. You'd have to bomb things on floor 9 I think to get a more accurate test.
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 20:27
#9
well at least Joydmn saved me
well at least Joydmn saved me some time then. I was going to go to Tier 1 to test too lol...
oh and the only reason why I'm not using the Brandish to test is because I don't have a brandish and aren't keen on making one right now >.>
Sun, 05/01/2011 - 23:35
#10
I have a comparison between
I have a comparison between Fiery Vaporizer Mk II (level 10) and Fireburst Brandish (level 5), observing only the fire damage to slimes (neutral to elemental) in the first level of Tier 2. The Vaporizer has a good chance of minor fire; the Fireburst Brandish has a good chance of strong fire.
Observations:
1. The initial damage done by both weapons is elemental (half elemental, half normal for the Brandish), but the fire "damage ticks" are normal damage. So i just took note of the fire ticks.
2. Minor fire caused 9 - 13 damage per tick across various lichen, slimes, and jellies.
3. Major fire caused 25 to 30 damage per tick. Small to medium targets last for one to two ticks after initial damage. I was not able to get the lichen colony on fire because I screwed up and needed to kill it with shadow before things got worse.
4. There is obvious balance between the vaporizer inflicting minor fire over an extended period of time over an area as enemies move into it, versus the Brandish targeting one to two enemies with strong fire.
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 02:03
#11
Comparizon!
Recorded the numbers today:
Ice Atomizer ice break damage against citadel zombie: 9x
Hail driver ice break damage against citadel zombie: 18x
And I think tier 3 ice vials icre breaks hit for about 300 there, not sure about those though.
Given ajericho's data, I'd say it goes:
Minor = Base damage
Mid = Base damage * 2
Major = Base damage * 3
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 02:09
#12
I tested cold snap's (lvl 1)
I tested cold snap's (lvl 1) moderate freeze in T3 in D19. When they broke from freeze it was doing 58 damage. My shivermist (lvl10) was doing 155 dmg.
Freeze didn't seem as long with the cold snap either but I didn't time it so that is pretty subjective.
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 06:56
#13
Similar results.
Though my
Similar results.
Though my cold snap (level 10) did 51 damage on d19.
And Freezing Atomizer (level 10) did 151 damage.
So I guess moderate < minor? I didn't bother testing time intervals this go around though.
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 12:10
#14
That seems rather odd, minor
That seems rather odd, minor would seem to be the lowest value possible, but... Well testing is testing. So given the order, I guess it reads:
Moderate = Base damage
Minor = Base damage * 2
Strong = Base damage * 3
Unsurprisingly, strong is the strongest.
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 18:46
#15
Bump for another set of
Bump for another set of testers. Though I think I sorta got some decent data out of this so I'm fine with letting it die after this.
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 19:12
#16
After reading this thread, I
After reading this thread, I was wondering how the status vials compare to the weapon status ailments. I tried out Super Poison and Super Fire, seems both have a stronger effect than "Minor," at least in T2:
Depth 11 - Voltail using a Faust, values are hit 1 and 2 in the combo
Not Poisoned 98 132
Minor Poison (Venom Veiler) 114 147
Super Poison Vial 119 153
Depth 14 - Pitboss, hit with DA Lv10, values are hit 1 and 2 in the combo
Not Poisoned 106 146
Minor Poison (Venom Veiler) 125 165
Super Poison Vial 132 173
Depth 11 - Voltail
Minor Fire (Ash of Agni) 21 per tick, 4 ticks
Super Fire Vial 32 per tick, 4-5 ticks
Mon, 05/02/2011 - 19:35
#17
Well then that sorta works
Well then that sorta works with Pupu's test from earlier...though looking back there's a conflict now since moderate is supposed to do less damage than minor.
Anyway if I had to guess now ignoring that one standout (hail driver)
moderate->Tier 1 vial->minor->Tier 2 vial->strong->Tier 3 vial perhaps?
Fri, 05/06/2011 - 09:21
#18
More poison data
Here's another poison data point for consideration...
Depth 16 Lichen
Hitting them with a vile striker, these are the low/high hits in the first two swings of the combo.
Not poisoned 48 28
Venom Veiler 5* Minor Poison 55 29
Vile Striker 4* Strong Poison 58 29
Sun, 05/08/2011 - 12:58
#19
weekend testers bump (and
weekend testers bump (and don't point out my earlier post hehe)
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 05:09
#20
Here is fire tick data Minor
Here is fire tick data
Minor fire - ash of agni
Strong fire - fang of vog
D19
Quicksilver
Strong fire 48
Minor Fire 43
Jelly Cube
Strong Fire 57
Minor Fire 49
D20
Greaver
Strong fire 40
Minor Fire 34
D21
Mender
Strong fire 43
Minor Fire 37
Puppy Turret
Strong fire 57
Minor Fire 51
D22
Devilite
Strong fire 46
Minor Fire 40
D24
Devilites/Ghosts:
Fire jug (the one you can throw) 65
Strong fire 51
Minor Fire 45
Ultra Blast Cube
Strong fire 82
Minor Fire 70
D26
Devilites/Ghosts:
Strong fire 55
Minor Fire 48
D27
Devilites/Ghosts:
Strong Fire 57
Minor Fire 49
D28
Med Lichen Colony:
Strong Fire 93
Minor Fire 73
Devilites/Ghosts:
Strong Fire 58
Minor Fire 51
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 07:36
#21
D'you think maybe the
D'you think maybe the weapon's damage or star rating might have something to do with it? It might also be simply measured differently for each weapon... like the stat bars.
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 08:24
#22
Yeah Gigafreak, the star
Yeah Gigafreak, the star rating might affect the status' effect. Will be great is someone could test two minor fires with different * ratings. Or maybe even the same star rating between bomb/gun/sword? Maybe Searing Edge 2* vs Fiery Vaporizer 2* which both cause Minor Fire.
I was collecting data on just Ash's ticks from T1-3 last night, can see the data here.
I noticed very early on that different types of monsters were affected by the same fire differently. Gremlins were the least hurt of anything. On depth 5 where ticks were doing 10-13, gremlins only received 8. On later depths where I noticed, they were the minimum affected by fire. The exception being menders which have a lower defense than normal and thus received a higher tick.
Also, constructs/undead take the most damage from ticks. The exception being skellys which take extra fire damage per tick. Approximately 20% more than other undead at the same depth.
I, stupidly, forgot I was wearing my Mad Bomber Suit when gathering these numbers that has a Medium Bomb Damage bonus >_< So I'm going to need to go back and run it again without the suit to see if anything changes. Don't know if it affects just the blast or the ticks too. Also different monsters tick different amounts at the same depth, I'll need to separate the data by monster at least for the initial analysis.
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 09:13
#23
So, Fire might be rendered as
So, Fire might be rendered as Elemental damage to enemies, and Gremlins might have Fire resistance... Might make sense, given that they're machinists and quite likely wear fire-retardant outfits for welding. Can you also compare the duration of the same fire on a Gremlin vs. any other type? If a Gremlin's fire wears off faster than, say, a Jelly's, then we would know for sure it's status resistance-- the same kind a player can get from armor and trinkets.
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 13:16
#24
My current theory is that
My current theory is that minor/moderate/major are just words that OOO pasted onto the weapons, much like the bars that are supposed to represent a weapon's strength and speed. They do not really relate to the actual strength and speed of the weapon, and the minor/moderate/major labels do not relate to the actual strength of the status.
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 13:16
#25
My current theory is that
My current theory is that minor/moderate/major are just words that OOO pasted onto the weapons, much like the bars that are supposed to represent a weapon's strength and speed. They do not really relate to the actual strength and speed of the weapon, and the minor/moderate/major labels do not relate to the actual strength of the status.
Fri, 05/13/2011 - 19:11
#26
Minor/moderate/major might
Minor/moderate/major might even refer to the duration rather than the damage/strength of the status effect.
@SlyJohnny it has been reported that the UV Damage on haze bombs will increase the initial elemental blast. Just from my data over the past two days:
Without UV at Depth 9, initial elemental blast from Ash of Agni 5*
Construct 88
Fiend 68
With a Medium Damage bomb bonus (from Mad Bomber Suit)
Construct 97 (Weak to elemental, 10% increase)
Fiend 77 (Neutral to elemental, 13% increase... why?)
Now for some maths... stay with me here :) d is damage, x is the increase % in damage due to weakness and i is the increase due to the medium damage bonus. Given that:
xd = 88
xd + i = 97
d = 68
d + i = 77
Then:
x = 88 / d = 88 / 68 ~= 1.294 (thus approx 30% increase in damage due to the construct's weakness to elemental)
i = 97 - xd = 97 - 88 = 9
i = 77 - d = 77 - 68 = 9
So the increase due to the Medium Bonus is 9 hit points in both cases. Why 9? I have no idea. Need more data. The damage bonus is more pronounced in fiends since it is added after the weakness is calculated. Originally I thought the formulas would be something more like:
ixd = 97
id = 77
but that just results in i = 10% increase and i = 13% increase.
It would be really awesome if someone could corroborate with some more data points, or show that this formula doesn't hold.
If a Damage Bonus changes the fire's tick, it is so low that it is removed when rounding to a whole number. Or maybe the difference isn't large enough to be noticed in Tier 2. With a Medium Damage Bonus the ticks ranged from 12-19 at depth 9, depending on the monster type. Without the bonus they remained at just 12-19. Also note this is for Medium Damage Bonus, not a specific UV vs Type which might follow a different pattern. *** EDIT: Keep reading this thread, it is confirmed later that a UV vs Type affects ticks but it seems that for haze bombs that the damage bonus from Mad Bomber does not affect the ticks only the initial blast. (sad panda)
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 14:54
#27
culture, I know it'll
culture, I know it'll increase the base damage. I just mean, would the fire or ice effect on a vaporiser increase? The damage from the status effect?
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 19:57
#28
I have not tested but I feel
I have not tested but I feel UV damage bonuses and star level don't affect the status bonuses. I'd be willing to buy into the natural resistances theory though.
Btw, this is just going with gut feelings, that's without testing.
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 21:06
#29
I doubt fire ticks are
I doubt fire ticks are affected by UV. My Ash of Agni is vhigh dmg to construct and the fire ticks are in line with all other data I've observed (comparing to fang of vog fire, etc)
Mon, 05/09/2011 - 22:53
#30
Fire resistance spectrum
Yeah, eek5 is very likely correct. If the UV affected ticks, it should be noticeable somewhere. Then again, it might be particular to a weapon-type or status aliment since we don't know the formulas being used or if formulas are consistent (though I would really hope they are).
Based on Ash damage ticks I've been collecting in Tier 2, here's the list of monsters from Low Fire Resist to High Fire Resist. Monsters on the same line seem to have the same amount of resistance.
Ice Cube
Lichen
Zombies
Lumber, Jelly/Lichen
Gun Puppy, Retrode, Scuttlebot, Wolver
Mecaknight, Chromalisk
Kat, Devilite, Wing, Greaver, Gremlin, Mender
I would have thought that monsters like Silvermist (ice lumber) would be different from other lumbers, but it is not. Only the Ice Cube seems to stand out from other jellies, I guess since it is "meltable."
Lichen is on there twice. When they start combining, sometimes their resistance switches to match the jelly numbers. In one garden, 1, 4, 5, and 6 lichens acted normal whereas 2, 3, 4 lichens combined acted like jelly. Definitely need to test that more and try larger colonies. Might be a bug.
It looks like the difference between the most and least damage a tick can do on a depth is slightly more than two-fold. So if Ice Cubes get 50 a tick, Gremlins would only receive 23 per tick at the same depth.
This pattern doesn't follow the monster's elemental damage resistance at all. Here's what I see based on monster type:
Slimes have low resistance
Undead is low or high resistance, nothing in the middle
Constructs have medium to low resistance
Beasts have medium resistance. The elemental blast actually does less damage than a tick.
Fiends and Gremlins all have high fire resistance
Thu, 05/12/2011 - 07:29
#31
@slyjohnny - I tested a 3*
@slyjohnny - I tested a 3* fiery vaporizer 2 against an ash of agni and got the same dmg for ticks so the "minor fire" does not seem to be based off the bomb's base damage, rather something else. I think the next thing to do would be to test minor, moderate, strong status affects from different sources (i.e. fang of vog vs combuster) and see if there is any differences in the status damage.
Thu, 05/12/2011 - 18:31
#32
hmm, didn't you already do
hmm, didn't you already do that above when you compared Fang of Vog with Ash of Agni damage ticks?
Thu, 05/12/2011 - 20:28
#33
Fang of Vog is Strong but Ash
Fang of Vog is Strong but Ash of Agni is Minor. I think Eeks means we should see a comparison like Fang of Vog's Strong Fire vs Combuster's Strong Fire... see if it is consistent with other weapon types as it is with bombs. We should even compare Hot Edge/Searing Edge's Minor Fire vs Ash of Agni's Minor Fire, see if those match up on the same monster at the same depth.
Thu, 05/12/2011 - 23:06
#34
ah I get it.
ah I get it.
Fri, 05/13/2011 - 01:55
#35
Well now I'm confused.. I
Well now I'm confused..
I crafted a hot edge and proc'd high dmg to undead (lol.. thanks game) and went to D7 to test it. Fire ticks were doing 22 dmg compared to ash of agni 17 on zombies and 12 dmg vs 11 on kat ghosts which lead me to believe that all minor fires are not created equal....
and then I tested it on slimes and it was doing 17 dmg on both. Huh. So either minor fires are not created equal, level scaling is weird, or UVs do affect the damage. Going to make a second hot edge and test at other depths next. It could be possible that UVs on swords affect status but UVs on bombs do not.
edit: nevermind. Looks like it is a scaling thing. Ash actually does less dmg than a 1* item in T1 lol.
d19
med lich ash 49 hot 17
big lich ash 43 hot edge (couldn't get it to burn)
puppy ash 43 hot 15
d21
kat - hot edge undead 11, hot edge normal 11, ash 37
also soloing T3 with 2 hot edges and an ash of agni is a pain. i don't recommend it to anyone lol. Also I take back my previous statement that ash and 3* fire did the same tick dmg since I only tested it in T2. It could have been a scaling issue as well
Fri, 05/13/2011 - 06:23
#36
ugh...so star level increases
ugh...so star level increases the effect intensity? That's a surprise...but at the same time if the weapon is too high for the tier it may do lower damage....@.@
Fri, 05/13/2011 - 10:11
#37
So let this be a lesson to
So let this be a lesson to us! For bigger e-peen, use tier appropriate weapons!
If this testing holds true then, a fang of vog and a combuster should do the same tick damage at any level since they're both 5 star "strong" fire starters.
It seems to be the amount of damage dealt by the affliction. Junior freeze potions in the firestorm citadel for instance (which spawn from plates) do about 49 damage to enemies who last long enough to thaw, but their big brothers in the ultra series do more than 3 times the damage. Going by this, it would stand to reason that the quality of the status affliction improves the damage or other effect. So a "Strong" poison might actually reduce defense a lot more than a "Minor" one.