"If you spend money on CE after using a mist tank on playing the game, and use it to play for longer, you have throwed that money away that could be used for crafting."

What do you mean? Why "throwed [sic] that money away that could be used for crafting"? You end up with even more money for crafting (if you did a profitable run) or the same amount of money (if you did a break-even run).

Compare these two scenarios. Both share this starting point: imagine that I'm 2* transitioning to 3*, and I've just finished using my mist for the day, ending up with a total of 25kcr (random number, including whatever cr I had before I started my run), and that I then use 17kcr of that cr to buy 200 CE (assume CE currently at 8.5kcr/100).

1) I do nothing, intending to use that 200 CE to upgrade two pieces of gear to 3* at a later date (using 100 mist each time). I finish the day with 0 mist, 8kcr and 200 CE.

2) I spend 80 CE running the first two stages of RJP four times. That nets me about 8.4kcr. I then buy another 100 CE, which I intend to put towards future upgrades. I finish the day with 0 mist, 7.9kcr, and 220 CE. (Also a bunch of mats I can sell for more cr, or use for crafting later.)

In scenario 2, how have I "throwed [sic] that money away that could be used for crafting"? I have more money for crafting than I did before. All I've thrown away is time, but if I enjoyed running those levels (and believe it or not, many do--I'm one of them), that's not a problem, is it?

"What I'm saying is that people want to play for longer, but they at the same time don't want to grind even more than they already have to."

Maybe you should start by defining "grinding". Do you just mean "playing a profitable mission which one has played before"?

We exert effort every time we play the game. Or any game. We do it because it is fun.

If you don't find playing the game to be fun, why play it?

And if you do find it fun, why complain that it takes effort?

I think SK is just fine the way it is. I haven't spent a penny on this game and I'm almost tier 3.

I'm sorry to say but I deny deltikon's suggestion

But let's just say that deltikon's idea was implimented. Let's just say that grinding was removed from the game and its all smooth saiing. So u got to vanguard in no time at all. So dafuq u gonna do now? Danger missions aint gonna last long to entertain u long enough. U will get bored so quickly that u quit the game quickly too. U see, grinding is like what keeps the game fun (well atleast for me). It gives us that very good feeling when we finally pass the HoH. And playing 2 hours a day? I ( and I'm sure some other people too) can go on until 3-5 hours just running on mist.

Sorry if I'm straying out of topic. But I'm just commenting on removing the grinding completely

(P.S. Sorry for some wrong grammar I'm not a native speaker)

@Deltikon oh you so silly. First off, the idea of removing an elevator's energy cost is TERRIBLE. Say you die in the clockworks, and you dont want to waste any energy on revving. So you go and start the arcade run/mission all over again with a clean death slate. And also, if you were in a party and you brought the wrong gear, you could leave, put the right gear on, and then come back without any negative repercussions.
Secondly, lol at the breast plates comment. You do realize that me Rin and Coot made that up as a half joke/aesthetics item right? Lighten up. X3
More later.

But it might be abused by people creating many alts. If not for that, I'd be on board.

"And i'll tell you dafuq i'll be doing after I reach vanguard: I'l play arcade, with a bunch of bros. THAT'S how you have fun on spiral knights"

You can do this with any gear, at any tier. No?

Why grind at all if, after grinding, you're just going to do something you could have been doing all along?

"- CE crafting should no longer require heating, which means you can craft all the way to the 5* without the obligation of binding it, given you have enough energy for it. Nothing changes for crown crafting on that"

No heating? Won't bind? That will make everybody have a high amount of crowns, making themselves rich with 5* gear. Then you can finish the game easier.

Sorry, but I disagree.

160kcr is not an unreasonable amount to unlock T3 (at which point you can do any clockworks run you want). If you play naturally on mist--that is, not going out of your way to grind, but just doing whatever T2 stuff catches your fancy--you should still make about 7kcr per day. That means it'll take you about 23 days of just playing naturally to reach T3 from 3*. How's that too long?

If it is too long, then okay, let's speed that up with a little grinding. Running the first two levels of Sovereign Slime gets you about 2.1kcr. Assuming you get 100 mist per day (in truth, it's 109 mist, but let's say some of that overflows and gets wasted), you can run those two levels five times a day, for a daily income of 10.5kcr. That's about 15 days of running RJP. Is that too long? (You might say yes, given that it's the same two levels over and over. But if that's boring to you, see the option in the previous paragraph--23 days of playing whatever T2 you want.)

And this is leaving out the possibility of being invited to T3 runs by friends/guildies who are further ahead.

Really, the longest period of grinding is between 4* and 5*. But you don't actually need 5* stuff to access the whole of the clockworks. You could be 4* forever and not lose out on any clockworks content. What's the big deal?

I said 23 days of playing normally: i.e. whatever T2 clockworks or missions you want. You know, the stuff that's supposed to be fun?

And what extra content does Tier 3 have? Vanaduke? That's one thing!

It has exactly the same content as T3, minus FSC and tougher enemies. It also has content T3 doesn't have (JK and RT). If 23 days of exploring T2 is boring, an eternity of exploring T3 must be extra boring, surely. Re: tougher enemies, if it's challenge you seek, you can create you own. Do T2 in 2* only, or maybe proto only if you're so hardcore.

Plus you can get invited to any tier by friends/guildies, even if you don't meet the requirement. If you want to run T3 without T3 clearance, you can do that.

"Why does tier 2 have to be a grindfest, care to explain me that?"

It doesn't. You can just, you know, play T2. Whichever levels you like. There are plenty.

23 days is a lot if it's torture, yes. But not if you're just, y'know, playing the game.

How long will the fight last?

I think the main question is "do you still stand entirely by your suggestion as it stands in the original post"?

I do believe that the experience of newer players - specifically the rate of progression - can be improved in such a manner as to lessen the grind feeling while still giving players sufficient time to linger in the early tiers in order to become better used to the heightened threats. What I do not believe is that this problem is large enough to warrant the kinds of drastic measures you've previously suggested.

Perhaps more to the point, it's extremely unlikely that Three Rings are going to think it's reasonable in the slightest.

First, I'm a he, and thank you for agreeing with me, now I feel silly waiting a week before posting :s

Anyhoo. People have different perspectives. If you hated the energy limit, why would continue playing. It would be like playing through puzzle pirates, say a trip in the Cursed Isles, and hating all puzzles. The energy limit (and all that is dependent on it) is part of the game, OOO will most assuredly NOT change this. Unless they feel like taking a month off to rebuild the entire game. No one is forcing people to play; no one is forcing people to pay. All of this is your choice. I won't say there is no grinding in this game, because as I said, this game is grinding.
I think what made T2 fun for me was that I could discover the levels and the tricks they had. I remember discovering the Scarlet Fortress and having a blast. Even after running them for the Xth time, finding quicker and more efficient ways to run through the two bosses was fun. (I say, running with people, even if we get sent back to haven, is more fun overall). The 'grind' for T3 access was more a checklist I would go to to say, "I need X, Y, Z, and about 23 A's". If you don't think of it as this NEVER ENDING GRUELING CYCLE OF PAIN AND HORROR, and just what neat things are in the clockworks, the game really is fun. (it's horribly samey, but it's that retro-game-samey we all love. Pac-man is still a great game)
Though to be fair, I got T3 about the same time the mission system came out (a bit before). So maybe that's the problem. Missions take a lot of the mystery out of the game by hand-holding you through, perhaps, too much of the game. By the time you get to the 2nd (?) HoH you've seen almost all the levels and to revisit them might feel like a chore. If that is the case, I'm at a bit of a loss for words.
Did I look at the 5* weapons and oggle? A little, that Dread Venom Striker always looked so good. However, if you set it as your goal to, say, get a 4/5* weapon, and you find ways to make the journey fun, it just might--hold on-- be fun!
If a player should stop and ask themself if they're having fun, right now, and the answer is no, they should quit. If they see it takes 4,000 CE just on crafting a 5* set, and they don't want to put that kind of effort in, by all means don't. Are they entitled to it, which is what I feel all this grinding talk is based on; no, the TOS actually outlines it.

So, to trim a tree into a shrub, it isn't a small amount of crowns/energy to get to T3. Does that mean you should be that Worker in Paradise and monotonously go through the same level day-in-day-out? No. This game has fun in it, no player has to rush to T3 like their missing anything.

I want to make this attack separate,
You, on nearly every occasion, state how it's such a climb players have to go through to get to T3. You outline how grinding can be reduced with lower crafting costs and have the worst solution for it, and further, believe T2 players are somehow in perpetual misery. Please, shut up. Until you outline why a player cannot have fun in what they're doing, cannot enjoy working toward a goal, and further, cannot reduce the duration of what you perceive as stagnation through boss tokens (I have a friend who proved Roarmulus grinding is more profitable than Vanaduke, and 20% more fun).
B-But it's so many crowns!
The entire reason CE prices are so high is because there are so many crowns. Crowns have become so worthless and easy to gain, it can't take too long to amass a good deal. There are mission rewards, enough that you can heat them up to 4* and get your T3 access you seem to think people so desperately want. There are boss tokens to get, surprise, very good 3 star weapons. A small 400CE + 5 levels of heat before it's 4* (and if you're in the clockworks you only need that weapons recipe, which, by running through the arcade will show up eventually). You don't even need 5* weapons until the 3rd HoH before Vanaduke, long after you have T3 access.
It's been said, if the grind is so bad, that it makes people want to leave, they can do so. I haven't heard of people fighting their way to actually enjoy the game that didn't leave when they looked at their energy. (I've invited many people to try the game and the best reaction is when they opened the energy trade and promptly logged off, only to call me and say how they didn't like the 6.3k/100CE). Also, the game is what's fun. the equipment may be nice part of the game, but it would still be fun if the only set were Proto.

The entire post can be summed as follows: Words, words about the past, angry words.

(alt. @Horse_ebooks title would've been: "It s been working for 5 years and it s not going to stop". @Horse speaks the truth)

If it regenerated faster people would do more rage crafting on alts which will net them more money.

The CE microtransaction model is a very carefully thought out strategy, contrary to what you might think. Anything that causes less CE to be purchased causes OOO to lose money, and gutting the energy system in the way you described would basically kill off their revenue. Unless you propose the doubling or tripling of the $ cost of all the packs (at which point price elasticity comes and bites you in the ass).

CE prices may seem ridiculous, but you have to realize that fully F2P is NOT in fact how SK is intended to be played. F2P is a privilege, an option granted by OOO so if you don't like it, leave it. Of course they'll play up the fact that you can be F2P, and this helps get many people to try the game rather than being put off by an upfront price tag, or a monthly subscription. But getting them to try the game allows them to make a judgment based on the merits of the game, and a fairly large number decide to stay and even pay (because no matter how much you bash it, SK is actually not that bad for a casual pick-me-up MMO). This is the future of gaming- offer your customer a free preview so they can judge your product's quality, and sell your game on its own merits. I will agree only to the point that lower CE prices (crown sinks!) would help extend people's ability to try out the game, increasing their likelihood of getting hooked, but the system is fundamentally working as intended.

Finally, before anyone gets on the high-horse about how F2P players are the heart and soul of the community, I would say no, they are not. Most of the biggest personalities in SK and my best SK friends have purchased CE, or still do on occasion. In fact, I would argue that of course it's the folks who have invested in the system who are more likely to be engaged in it. Or conversely, it's the folks who have derived the most out of the game through their interactions and experiences that decide to support it monetarily. This doesn't mean there aren't F2P players that contribute greatly to the community, or that they aren't necessary for the game to survive (hint: where do you think new P2P players come from), but the community contributions of P2P players have been greatly downplayed, and it is high time people recognized that.

The TL;DR:
The system is fundamentally sound; F2P is a privilege you should think about as a super-extended free demo; and P2P players are a much larger part of the community than most people recognize.

F2P means *you*--the individual player--can play without paying. But someone, somewhere, has to pay, else the game wouldn't be able to run. Every CE was paid for by someone, but that doesn't mean everyone has to pay $ for CE. Many people get to 5* without spending a cent. If that doesn't make the game true F2P, what would?

Also:

"And you just implied that the game needs to force players to buy CE in order to progress. Way to strawman."

Huh? Do you even know what "straw man" means? Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I'm not misrepresenting your position. I'm just stating my position. Which is, yes, that the game does need to force players to buy CE. Not every player, but some players.

The generation that actually paid for their games says hi.

I wonder what you guys think of retail games. "OMG! I need to pay money to even play this game? Ridiculous!"

Or shareware games. "OMG! I can't progress beyond stage 3 without paying for the full version? Ridiculous!"

Or arcade games. "OMG! I need to put in a coin every time I want to play? Ridiculous!"

There is nothing evil or strange about being made to pay for a game. For decades, it was the only way.

Now, things are slightly different, but companies still need to pay the bills. In SK's case, if you don't want to pay money, you're lucky: you can let other players pay the money for you, and purchase their CE with your time instead. I don't see what's so terrible about that.

what's so evil about forcing some percentage of the playerbase to spend money.

Do you think every retail game is evil? If not, why not?

Also, you keep coming back to the "grind forever" thing, despite my repeatedly pointing out that you don't need to grind--i.e. repeat the same profitable level over and over--but rather can progress by just playing whatever unlocked missions or gates you like. You don't have to run JK with every last mist you get. You can do whatever you want with your mist. You'll reach the end point eventually.

"Grinding" isn't compulsory. Playing is.

Just wanted to point out, many of the analogies between TF2 and SK are bad. TF2 is a MMOFPS, while SK is an MMORPG. In the former, the core of the game is the action; in the latter, the core is about progression. Progression must be balanced against a lot of things, but ultimately for an MMORPG it's about keeping as many people engaged and paying as possible. Allowing people to rush to end-game for free basically breaks the business model.
If you really do feel that strongly about it, I encourage you to quit (and convince as many people as you can to join you). If you are right, then OOO will feel it in their bottom line, and adjust their strategies. But what I see are people throwing money at OOO because they like what they have been playing, and they are willing to pay for more. In short, OOO has given them Reason To Buy, by making a good product, and using the community to connect with these fans.

Only those who feel they are entitled to play the game for free see it as being forced to pay.