Because it is awful, and there are more people that actually agree with me than you might think. Why do you think mmos are so looked down by most players?
About the system of SK
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 09:55
#52
lel
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 09:58
#53
"Why do you think mmos are so
"Why do you think mmos are so looked down by most players?"
The community.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:05
#54
Kinda, damn BRs... But tell me
What other free mmo, other than TF2, that does not have some sort of scheme that makes you grind forever without paying?
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:07
#55
Most Mno's are content locked.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:11
#56
You haven't answered me.
What free mmo, other than TF2, doesn't make you grind forever if you don't want to pay money?
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:22
#57
None I've heard of(I never really play MNOs),
Yet as i said, most are content Locked.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:31
#58
Exactly
That's what's wrong with free mmos, They butcher part, usually the best bit, of the real content and gameplay and sell it twice the price they're worth, if you don't feel like to play forever that is.
And that's why they are looked down.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:31
#59
Yet Sk isn't a part of it.
Comparing Grinding to Content-Lock, I would take it anyday.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:38
#60
But it's still a grindfest.
And that's one of the 4 sins of the MMOs. The other is limiting gamplay, on this case, it's the fatigue system.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:43
#61
"And that's one of the 4 sins
"And that's one of the 4 sins of the MMOs."
It's one of the 4 things MMOs do to make money. I guess trying to make a living is a sin. If you would rather play a game with content you have to pay for rather than a grindfest, go away and play that game.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:43
#62
Deltikon, stop. Now. Stop
Deltikon, stop. Now. Stop while you can.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:20
#63
You don't get it.
By sins, I mean up to 4 bad things free mmo developers commonly do to make people pay money:
- Excessive, unecessary grind, more than it's needed to be.
- Exclusive non-cosmetic content for p2pers, such as superior weapons (AKA, p2w)
- Legitimately boring gameplay, based more on gear than actual skill (WoW fails on this one imo, but so does many others)
- (Serious) gameplay limitations to f2pers. (zynga and a bunch of other facebook games are strong examples of that)
And spiral knights has 2 of them, or maybe even 3 if you actually count the OCH "DLC" or even the shadow lairs, but fortunatly, they're not really game breaking to be called p2w at all.
@Artistbma: http://bit.ly/NZgcPg
EDIT: made a small edit to make it more accurate.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:56
#64
Tell me,
What MNO has none of these sins?
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 10:59
#65
Team fortress 2.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:01
#66
The 3rd sin depends on the person playing it.
Their tastes.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:05
#67
Yes, but there are mmos that are legitimately boring...
...to almost everyone.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:06
#68
But not everyone.
If that thing can stay afloat, then it has enough intrest.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:19
#69
There's a difference:
IMO fast, dynamic combat is much more exciting than slow, shoekicking contests.
Compare this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kaLRD0sSx0
With this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJFb0j4Eejw
Which one looks more fun to play?
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 11:28
#70
In graphical presentation, vindicus.
The other looks fun, but inferior in presetation.
Yet I am not the represanative of everyone.
Then ask yourself this,
why do people like Puzzle Pirates?
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 12:11
#71
I dont like puzzle pirates.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 13:01
#72
I don't like the Mississippi
I don't like the Mississippi ____ - Mississippi - a + i + k + opposite of off
/grin
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 13:13
#73
Why is this still
Why is this still here.
Graveyard.
As much as we hijacked it, the thread is still not good enough.
TL;DR. Not worth effort. Graveyard.
GRAVE.YARD.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 13:50
#74
Don't get so butthurt
Just stop replying if you don't like it. It'll eventually die.
@Atrumvindex
Eh, people like puzzle games I suppose. It's not my kind of thing though. And i just tired it and kinda looks like several ordinary puzzle browser games slapped all in one, nothing special on it.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 14:35
#75
>Tells people to stop
>Tells people to stop posting
>Is the main reason this thread is still going
>I'm using green text on Drupal. Deal with it
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 18:39
#76
>We should greentext more.
Alright Deltikon, it's pretty clear that you refuse to accept other peoples opinions as an option, and i can (sorta) respect that,
But the simple fact is that the game you are looking for is not spiral knights.
I'm not saying get out because we don't want you, but you're asking to play instead of the game given to you are two different things.
Apples can't be turned into oranges.
SK can't be turned into TF2/Most MMO's of it's type (diablo).
If you truly hate this games main point and everything about it, don't play it.
Nobody's forcing you to play.
Nobody's forcing you to pay energy.
But there's a mechanic to this game that most players enjoy, and if you don't like it then it's safe to say that you don't like SK.
>That or your the biggest Bigot i've met in my life
>yes, your actions are considered bigotry, look it up.
*Jetpacks away*
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 19:01
#77
Anyone who is fine with the
Anyone who is fine with the current system is immediately labelled as a spiral drone who shoves money into OOO's mouth.
Yup, what a great way of getting people to take you seriously...
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 19:18
#78
Most people agree with Deltikon. Most people don't play Spiral Knights.
It would quite obviously help the game if the devs were to tweak the energy system, maybe not to the point of redoing it, but enough, as I said here-
On Player Retention-
First and foremost, what I'm seeing now is that you guys need more players to outnumber those who are leaving. Our community is "small", not small like 10 people small, but microscopic in comparison to WoW and other huge games. This is kind of a nice thing for us, but not a nice thing for profit margins. I think that you guys are really on the right track with this newest update, buffing the starting weapons by a ton is the way to go, and making SOMETHING for the newer players early on should help some of them to stay. However, you still have to solve the larger issue- the CE scheme seems greedy, and people aren't nearly as likely to stay with that. I didn't say it had to go, but I am saying that some kind of a reform would be very beneficial to newer players staying. Here is what I'd suggest doing, in order of most radical to least radical:
-Make mist energy buyable from vendors at a rate of about 5K per hundred. Introduce this before the CE market. This would make the game go quite fast, but would cost you money.
-Give out mist tanks or mini mist tanks more often. Add them to prize wheels, make them more common drops in lockdown, have them occasionally on featured auctions. I'm not saying make them common, but make them... more common. Renewable, if you will.
-Make the CE market more friendly to newer players. Rather than starting with "BUY FROM US! >:D" start with teaching them to buy from the other players in that market. Then, mention that they can buy from you, and put it out as "an investment".
-Introduce crowns as almost the sole source of money. Show that the auction house is the place to go, and that they are by far more useful than energy.
Found in my book that I wrote ages ago; http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/53465
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 19:31
#79
Grow UP
the following 2 points is so you don't compare TF2 to SK
1. TF2 isn't an MMO, in fact SK can barely be called an MMO.
go and do some research on what an MMO is.
Even tho it stands for massively multi player on-line, it needs to have certain features to be considered an MMO, the most important of which is a persistent world.
SK has the auction house, and the arcade that is persistent, that's about it.
the only thing that is persistent for TF2 is your inventory, so the world is created (instanced) for each game.
2. TF2 wasn't always free to play, valve have sold enough copies of TF2 when it was pay to play, to cover the costs of the game, the hat economy is just to sustain the servers and support for the game.
SK hasn't ever been pay to play, so they have to recoup the costs of the game through their energy system.
the next points are talking about SK design
1. I am certain that when SK was designed, the developers though about how to make money from the game (as stated before, they are a company)
so they created this fatigue/energy system. and like ALL systems, there are pros and cons to it, and it is easy to list out all the flaws.. because, all systems have them.
2. the game is advertised as free to play, and it is free to play. Because you CAN get 5* gear and see ALL the content without paying a cent (with the exception of Crimson Hammer, but that's pretty new).
But as you have mentioned previously, no one can have 3*+ gear unless someone has put money into the game.
So what this system does is more along the lines of, the game is free to TRY, but you'll need to pay to continue to play. HOWEVER the cost is paid by the community, rather than the individual.
So instead of being offended by their design choices, how about you be more grateful to the pay to play people who are allowing you to get 3*+ gear.
3. Fun is subjective, grind and long and turn based or action packed or what ever is SUBJECTIVE, you can't say that everything that is fun for you is fun for others.
So what elements SK designed/chose to add into the game is aimed at a specific demographic, and people.
(Personally I HATE the gambling element, just make VH UVs cost 10 times more than H UVs or something, and accessories just bought with energy etc..)
4. What is quite 'evil' in my eyes (subjective) is putting gambling elements into a game aimed at young children who do not necessarily have the discipline to control their urges.
and this last section is dealing with your 4 'sins'
1. Grind is what you call repetitive content I presume. but the perception of grind is subjective.
for people who are skilled, like yourself, it takes them less time to learn the patterns of monster attacks, and map layouts and optimal crowns per level and get bored of the content quickly.
you can always challenge yourself, if the game doesn't challenge you. like those 'proto runs' or any number of different things people have thought up.
it is subjective, because if you only consider original content, just beat 1 of every type of monster, and I get to every stage, and you're done.
or do you need to get every weapon as well? or beat every monster with every weapon? or getting all the achievements?
also this game, being a MMO, has a social component, to play with others that's something that can't be properly qualified.
2. I agree with you. Pay to win is silly, and will kill the game. There are MANY free to play games that have taken this route, all the free players leave and then the game becomes unfun for even the paying players because they don't have anyone to pick on. and the game eventually shuts down.
so for SK to be running for this long is a testament to it's design elements being good enough to support a game/community of players.
3. You think WoW is based on gear? that's a pretty narrow view. like in all games, gear makes up for skill.
having more gear, means you can afford more mistakes, missing your rotation, being hit more times etc..
that's why there is a race to be world firsts. because in the 2/3 weeks they take to kill the final boss, the best guilds in the world don't have access to best in slot gear, they have to beat the boss with dungeon gear or around 2 levels of gear lower than the design of the encounter.
That means they cannot afford any mistakes, no dps dies, no wasted healing, and full use of each cooldown at the right times, and perfect rotations.
and that is a design element Blizzard chose to put in. it's called progression, because each passing week, your raid will be better geared, and more experienced and be able to afford more mistakes.
4. Limitations on free to play players, that's a design choice as well, because some games don't have a free to play model. Many AAA titles don't have free to play built in. therefore that's a serious limitation to free to play players.
some games have free demos, and you can play the first section of the game for free, but then you have to pay if you want to continue
or maybe free players have ads and paying players don't.
or maybe like SK free to play players have access to all the content that pay to play players do (except Crimson Hammer) but paying players can just get through the game faster.
with any model, the company NEEDS to incentify their players to pay them. otherwise, no one will have anything to play.
***TL : DR***
Spiral Knights, like any other game, has many design choices. There are ones you like and ones you dislike.
And your model, where content is free, and not much grind, and accessories/looks is to be paid for in the cash shop, does exist out there.
But you know what has happened to many of those games, the majority shut down, because the amount of money they were making was not able to support the developers and servers.
Once people were through with the game, there was nothing else to do, so they left and played other games
The handful of people who bought vanity items stayed, but having no one to show their vanity items to sort of defeated the purpose of having vanity items, and they soon left as well.
and as with all social games, when there are no players and no one to 'advertise' the game to their friends, there's no way they can continue to operate.
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 19:34
#80
urgh
I can't believe I posted so much = \
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:06
#81
urgh
I can't believe you posted so much without replying to my post = \
Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:11
#82
@Fehzor
Sorry I started my post before yours and didn't see until I actually posted.
but here's your reply
Yes player retention is definitely important, because the more people that play a game the more 'free' marketing the game gets and more people come along, and more money is spent etc.. and the game survives.
the CE scheme seems greedy
I hope you intended to use the word 'seems' and not 'is'.
People see the energy system, and they believe that the developers are greedy, but if they actually examine what is actually happening objectively they will see otherwise.
IE: it costs players not much to download, install and play the game. while the developers have to pay wages and server uptime costs.
so in these terms, I don't think the energy system is greedy.
so one solution is to change player's perceptions that the game is not actually greedy, however as you can see from the forums, changing someone's opinion or viewpoint is next to impossible.
your suggestions are all good, but the main issue with handing out mist is: anything that reduces the CE expenditure will cost the developers money.
The economy is a unique beast, because lets say you can buy 100 mist for 5000cr. this means that to craft 3*+ equipment will still use CE.
but what may happen is because CE is no longer used apart from over 100 energy items. The only reason to buy CE would be to do these expensive things, effectively negating the fatigue feature. or pretend everyone has free elevator passes.
People may purchase less CE, and less CE in the world means higher CE prices. those people who want to pay to get a faster experience will still do that.
And soon enough, the CE price will find another equilibrium ratio, which may be higher or lower than it is currently (basically pitting the cost of running depths against crafting needs and accessories) but it will definitely be higher than 5000cr, and I would suspect higher than 10kcr because people can just keep playing the depths and accumulate cr much faster than CE enters the world.
And this would make it even harder for new players and free to play players to progress into 3* territory.
So as mentioned before, there is no answer to this problem, it's just a design choice the developers made at the start.
Simply put, they need to have people buy and spend CE, and they can either do that by pressure, or by incentives.
and the general perception of pressure is always a bad thing, while incentives can only appeal to a small portion of the playing population.
so it's about finding a balance that will make them the most money (not greedy) because they are a business in the end.
and just a small list of the incentives and pressures in SK, there are more, but these are just off the top of my head.
Pressures:
Reviving with CE
3*+ weapons
Running out of mist (boredom)
Testing your patience with repetitive grind
the gambling element / uv system
Incentives:
Accessories
the promos
DLC new content
Fri, 08/31/2012 - 11:35
#83
I disagree >:(
Bad Idea dude. That means good items can never be bought without paying money. I or any of u might lose interest in SK. Ya'll just need patience . I've been playing SK for 9 weeks (says my history ) and I'm about 4.5 star.
Fri, 08/31/2012 - 21:31
#84
If only an e-punch to the face hurt as much as a real one, I would be pleased with what happened to the OP
Sat, 09/01/2012 - 11:05
#85
I'll definitely admit that
I'll definitely admit that the Preview event CE prices are definitely better than now, but we need an energy system. Why complain? SK isn't the only game that empties your pockets. Think about TF2. People pay money to buy HATS. If you really don't like this energy system, why keep playing. If I run out of energy, why not play another game? That thought never occur to you?
Alright, I'm tired of this. No matter what we say or do, you are still going to insist that the whole economy should be scrapped and changed to this model. You will believe anyone who disagrees with you is a "MMO addict" or "brainwashed", and you will remain convinced that everyone who hasn't said anything agrees with you (those who don't go on the forums).
Goodbye forever, Deltikon. I'm going to the Clockworks