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Heavy penalty for every unsuccessful/expired/cancelled CE buying offer

29 replies [Last post]
Wed, 09/05/2012 - 22:56
Forumchat's picture
Forumchat

yeah i get enough of seeing people complaining about CE price.
and i expect to receive lot's of -1 from F2P players, come at me. but read through the thread first.

first of all, the market is suspected of some players keep raising the CE price by making hundreds or even thousands of CE buying offer which is always sufficiently higher than the previous highest offer. a "wall" of offer is then formed and it helps preventing the price from going down.

secondly, this kind of speculation receives no risk at all. either that: they can cancel the offer or they can be refunded if the offer dies after a few days. they receive full refund in these two scenarios. even they purchased some CE "accidentally", the damage toward them is minimum.

therefore, i propose that for every unsuccessful/expired/cancelled CE buying offer, about 25~35% of the refund should be taken away by the system in the name of a service charge. this measure will not affect the successful CE trade or the "most concerned" CE sellers. this won't be blamed for any direct intervention from OOO either.

i know this measure is nasty and will affect every F2P players, but finding a way to regulate this ruthless market manipulation is my most concern. to take down the malicious tumor some healthy tissues are meant to be compromised. otherwise try to make some better suggestions.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 00:16
#1
Niichi's picture
Niichi
~

Surely if the concern is select rich players putting up bid walls then the solution is to limit the number of crown offers a player can make at a single time? It would combat bid walls without needlessly punishing players trying to make progress in the game.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 06:51
#2
Derpules's picture
Derpules
^This

Yup.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 07:34
#3
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

Seriously, I will never get how a wall is supposed to work in a free market.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 07:53
#4
Oatmonster's picture
Oatmonster
Lick

@Addisond, Walls are formed when someone places an obscene amount of CE buy offers. The CE price won't drop below that offer as long as it still stands, due to it being higher than the bid after it.

I actuall once saw a wall on the selling side. Yay for whoever actually tried to help lower CE prices.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 07:58
#5
Forumchat's picture
Forumchat
analogy for the wall

the rich: oh the current highest offer is 8.5k, lemme troll it with 200 of 8.6k, i still have a lots of cr left and i always pay $ for CE lol
the noobs: omg the market can't digest that 200 offer but i want CE, i will offer 8.61k
the rich: oh the current highest offer is 8.61k, lemme troll it with 300 of 8.7k, i still have a lots of cr left and i always pay $ for CE lol
the noobs: ffffffuuuuuuu
the sellers: lol idiots are making higher offer, lemme wait until it gets higher
repeat the cycle, profit!!

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 15:40
#6
Pinksnipe's picture
Pinksnipe
This is driving me up the wall!

What? A penalty?

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 15:54
#7
Marazo's picture
Marazo
No need for a penalty, as

No need for a penalty, as suggested eariler a max amount of offers would be good. A time limit between offers could help too. Another solution to this absurd energy price is to add a massive crown sink as people probably already know, this will reduce the amount of crowns these rich people have. (personally I have over 300k cr but am not a troller like that and would love to see the prices back down to 5k or even 3-4k).

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 18:10
#8
Iamnoone's picture
Iamnoone
It will never happen. The

It will never happen. The higher the market price is on CE, the more likely users are to pay real cash for it instead of using the market. OOO has financial reasons to allow it to keep going up and up. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those market trolls were accounts owned by OOO's GM's, developers and staff.

Edited to add
The market issue is making me CR rich. I'm not buying CE on the market at all anymore. Other than real cash purchases to craft special items, I've even stopped crafting for the purposes of collecting/expanding items just for the fun of it. Because off, I've also stopped buying as many recipes. With nothing to spend my CRs on, I'm becoming CR rich too.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 20:01
#9
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

I understand what a wall IS. I just don't see how anyone could possibly profit. It does raise CE - temporarily. Were the person who built the wall to try and capitalize off their wall, they would be counteracting what their wall did - and consequently not getting anything out of it. From what I can tell, in a pure supply-demand market, all a wall will do is bump the market up a bit temporarily - if the wall is further forward than the market can support, the market will crash once the wall is finished off. If it is behind where the market can support or on the line, the market will either continue rising from the wall, or stall out around the wall. Though it would appear as though this kind of effect is increasing prices short-term, in the long run it really has no effect. Unless I missed something.

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 21:19
#10
Derpules's picture
Derpules
@Addisond

"Were the person who built the wall to try and capitalize off their wall, they would be counteracting what their wall did - and consequently not getting anything out of it."

How so?

And yes, each wall only has a temporary effect. But when there's almost always someone walling. . . .

Thu, 09/06/2012 - 23:24
#11
Nexafor's picture
Nexafor
The problem with theese type

The problem with theese type of solutions is the following:

They only favor a certain group. Which is why this will not be implemented.
Why? Because as we all want to buy CE as cheap as possible, OOO wants to make us buy as much CE with real money as possible(So essentially high CE prices are profitable for them).
Here you already start with a contradiction between the two.
To solve this problem, solutions must be found that favor both,
or atleast while favoring one do not damage the other parties involved.
And yes its harder than it sounds.

Those are my 2 cents, I have a thread on the CE topic.

I hope it made things a little bit clear as to why OOO does not just implement radical changes like that.

A fine day to you all,

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:14
#12
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

If you TAKE offers at your high prices, whether you are actually buying your own back or not, you are eroding at the bids between an inflated price and a lowered price.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:40
#13
Derpules's picture
Derpules
Huh?

Sorry, you are not expressing yourself very clearly. What do you mean by "If you TAKE offers at your high prices"? Surely one would capitalise on the wall by putting up sell offers, not by accepting buy offers.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:47
#14
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
Can You please Explain better?

Im confused, i really am. Why cant this be done to both sides? penalty for not selling and penalty for not buying? I hate/stink at world economy class so im seriously lost.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 07:53
#15
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

Yes, you would place sell offers. But the sell and buy sides of the market are kept close to each other, and when one goes down, it drags the other with it. The same goes for going up. This is because when offers get out of 2% of each other, people capitalize.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 08:11
#16
Forumchat's picture
Forumchat
actually i don't know why ppl

actually i don't know why ppl would ever waste time trying to explin the motive of making the walls just in term of profit.
this wall still erect straightly no matter what reason, may be some people are just bored...
still, the opportunity cost for setting up the wall is negligible

"Why cant this be done to both sides? penalty for not selling and penalty for not buying?"
so which good is more desirable? CE or crowns?
for CE selling, the sellers are already charged 2% from each successful trade.
for CE buying, buyers can limitlessly posting offer without any penalty.
if the buyers don't even want to risk any of the proposed penalty, they can just use the quick trade tab instead of the market. but surely the price will be higher than posting buying offer. it is just a bet with the outcome of: guaranteed obtaining CE with a slightly higher price, obtaining CE with desired price while risking some loss of crowns if trade failed, or just plain loss of some crowns without obtaining any CE

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 09:05
#17
Derpules's picture
Derpules
@Addisond

Yes, but if you (or someone else) can put up an effective wall, you'll still be selling for more than if there wasn't a wall. So yeah, by posting sell offers after walling, you'll drag down the buy prices--but you'd drag down the buy prices by selling whether or not you walled.

Whether the increased profit is significant enough to be worth it is debatable and depends on a great many things. But there's no doubting that walling does benefit whoever's selling at the time of the wall.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 11:44
#18
Addisond's picture
Addisond
@derpules

Yes, it will increase the prices - TEMPORARILY. If a seller is putting up buy offers, they will sell those later on, balancing it out. If they're actually a buyer, it's just part of the supply and demand.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 12:11
#19
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
:(

...more confused right now...

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 15:01
#20
Derpules's picture
Derpules
@Addisond

"If a seller is putting up buy offers, they will sell those later on, balancing it out."

A successful wall doesn't result in many buy offers being taken. Or any.

The aim is to make people go above your wall and provide insulating layers. You do this by spamming a big block one or two layers *below* the current highest. When there are enough layers on top, you remove your wall and put up a slightly higher one. Your wall should rarely be sitting on top getting eroded, so if your attempts to wall end up with you actually buying significant amounts of CE, you're walling wrong.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 15:21
#21
Forumchat's picture
Forumchat
so imagine a group of

so imagine a group of intended players each making several hundred offers of a certain price deliberately, how much time do you think is needed for the market to offer that huge amount(thousand) of offers? remember many individual f2p whose desperately want to have CE will also make offers which always slightly higher than the wall, this is sufficiently effective enough to protect the wall

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 15:27
#22
Addisond's picture
Addisond
@ derpules

If the wall is kept below market price, it doesn't have a purpose because people won't base their offers off it; they will base their offers off the highest offer. If the wall IS the highest offer due to the erosion of the cushion, the wall is consequently eroding while keeping CE up, and all the rules from before apply.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 15:34
#23
Derpules's picture
Derpules
First presumption is false.

Buyer behaviour is more complex than that (as I'm sure you'd notice if you carefully observed your own behaviour when in urgent need of CE). If there are three layers of offers, each with a handful of lots, buyers are more likely to slot their bid somewhere in between, trusting that the top few will get taken quite soon. But if there's a wall, buyers will always put their bids somewhere above the wall: sometimes right at the top, sometimes somewhere in between. It drives the price up slowly, but surely.

That's the safe way to wall. Of course, one can just plonk down a few hundred offers at a busy time, and a protective layer will almost immediately form and grow. One does make some accidental/incidental purchases that way, but not very many--certainly far fewer than one plans to sell.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 15:37
#24
Forumchat's picture
Forumchat
what you need to do is to

what you need to do is to check the market frequently while playing, wall builders are smart enough to prevent the walls from eroding, they raise it up bit by bit. further more, given the info they are entirely p2p, market is not their main source from obtaining ce. and ce can always be sold away later.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 16:26
#25
Darklordskull's picture
Darklordskull
*BLEEP*ing wall. i need ce

*BLEEP*ing wall. i need ce but cant buy so i have to make offer, thus driving the price higher. its a vicious circle. like the snarbolax.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 17:07
#26
Addisond's picture
Addisond
Compliation of argument

I'm kinda losing my train of thought here, so I'm gonna copy our argument into a new post.

Addison:
I understand what a wall IS. I just don't see how anyone could possibly profit. It does raise CE - temporarily. Were the person who built the wall to try and capitalize off their wall, they would be counteracting what their wall did - and consequently not getting anything out of it. From what I can tell, in a pure supply-demand market, all a wall will do is bump the market up a bit temporarily - if the wall is further forward than the market can support, the market will crash once the wall is finished off. If it is behind where the market can support or on the line, the market will either continue rising from the wall, or stall out around the wall. Though it would appear as though this kind of effect is increasing prices short-term, in the long run it really has no effect. Unless I missed something.
-------
Derpules:
"Were the person who built the wall to try and capitalize off their wall, they would be counteracting what their wall did - and consequently not getting anything out of it."

How so?

And yes, each wall only has a temporary effect. But when there's almost always someone walling. . . .
------
Addison:
If you TAKE offers at your high prices, whether you are actually buying your own back or not, you are eroding at the bids between an inflated price and a lowered price.
-------
Derpules:
Sorry, you are not expressing yourself very clearly. What do you mean by "If you TAKE offers at your high prices"? Surely one would capitalise on the wall by putting up sell offers, not by accepting buy offers.
------
Addison:
Yes, you would place sell offers. But the sell and buy sides of the market are kept close to each other, and when one goes down, it drags the other with it. The same goes for going up. This is because when offers get out of 2% of each other, people capitalize.
------
Derpules:
Yes, but if you (or someone else) can put up an effective wall, you'll still be selling for more than if there wasn't a wall. So yeah, by posting sell offers after walling, you'll drag down the buy prices--but you'd drag down the buy prices by selling whether or not you walled.

Whether the increased profit is significant enough to be worth it is debatable and depends on a great many things. But there's no doubting that walling does benefit whoever's selling at the time of the wall.
------
Addison:
Yes, it will increase the prices - TEMPORARILY. If a seller is putting up buy offers, they will sell those later on, balancing it out. If they're actually a buyer, it's just part of the supply and demand.
------
Derpules:
"If a seller is putting up buy offers, they will sell those later on, balancing it out."

A successful wall doesn't result in many buy offers being taken. Or any.

The aim is to make people go above your wall and provide insulating layers. You do this by spamming a big block one or two layers *below* the current highest. When there are enough layers on top, you remove your wall and put up a slightly higher one. Your wall should rarely be sitting on top getting eroded, so if your attempts to wall end up with you actually buying significant amounts of CE, you're walling wrong.
------
Addison:
If the wall is kept below market price, it doesn't have a purpose because people won't base their offers off it; they will base their offers off the highest offer. If the wall IS the highest offer due to the erosion of the cushion, the wall is consequently eroding while keeping CE up, and all the rules from before apply.
------
Derpules:
Buyer behaviour is more complex than that (as I'm sure you'd notice if you carefully observed your own behaviour when in urgent need of CE). If there are three layers of offers, each with a handful of lots, buyers are more likely to slot their bid somewhere in between, trusting that the top few will get taken quite soon. But if there's a wall, buyers will always put their bids somewhere above the wall: sometimes right at the top, sometimes somewhere in between. It drives the price up slowly, but surely.

That's the safe way to wall. Of course, one can just plonk down a few hundred offers at a busy time, and a protective layer will almost immediately form and grow. One does make some accidental/incidental purchases that way, but not very many--certainly far fewer than one plans to sell.

Fri, 09/07/2012 - 17:24
#27
Addisond's picture
Addisond
@ derpules

When I'm in urgent need of CE I either place the top offer or take a sell offer. My own buying behavior is that I place a top offer when the price is low, or place a large amount of offers at a low price that I feel the market is likely to bottom out at. "layering in" will only work when the price is lowering. But still, if the CE price is too high, the cushion will usually be on the brink of death or actually dead, and the wall will slowly erode. I can see your point, but all that it means is that there will be a slightly bigger bump and hence a slightly bigger crash later on.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 00:53
#28
Derpules's picture
Derpules
Don't think we're actually disagreeing.

Yes, when the walls fall away entirely, the price will drop. But by then the waller has already made his profits.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 11:50
#29
Addisond's picture
Addisond
--

I'm starting to see how this could work, but I'm not sure it actually requires the making of an entire wall. What you could do is, while CE is rising (in a minor upward fluctuation) bump it up a couple hundred crowns, and take advantage of anyone bidding at your inflated price. Then you cancel your offers when the price is up and start selling. Once CE starts falling again you remove your wall so you don't end up selling, and you're safe. This relies heavily on good predictions of minor fluctuations, but I can imagine it working out. Granted, it requires that the community be small enough that such fluctuations be possible, but it could still work. It seems like it's be easy to fix this sort of thing: make people unable to remove their offers for an hour or so after posting, still allowing them to increase their offers if buying and decrease if selling (allowing players to bid against each other).

Is this the money-making tactic you're referring to? If not tell me what one you're talking about.

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