Spiral Knights - Time system for the Auction House is awful

Time system for the Auction House is awful

23 replies [Last post]

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 01:16

El-Odio

As it is now, the remaining time in the AH is more than user unfriendly.
First of, the time spans far to many hours in "Very long" and "long", 48 to 24, and 24 to about 4 hours. 20 hours is a hell of a difference.
Second, who's idea was it for a bid to increase the time of the auction? "Very short" should be 5 minutes, but if more than one person thinks "Ha, Imma be clever and bid only in the last 5 minutes to keep the price low" a bloody bid-war ensues which is exacly what last second bidding wants to prevent. 5 minutes can easily become over 15 Minutes, hitting 30 minutes if both partys really want it. It is favorable for the one who put the auction up, sure, but this is a bad joke. To make a hard profit you have the BO option, there is no need to screw with the bidding option like this.

My suggestion would be to change the time displayed to something more helpful like ">24h", "24-12h", "12-6h"... such things. Also, get rid of the "each auction increases remaining time"-thing. It's horrible.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 03:25

Omnizoa

hmmm...

Why not just have a timer for the auctions, like the mineral deposits and gates in the arcade? Have the time refresh each time you refresh the page. as far as the auctions getting more time for each bid at the end...thats good as it is, as you said before you can always click the buyout function.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 05:02

Dendios

@Omnizoa Yeah I was thinking

@Omnizoa Yeah I was thinking about this too . El-Odio isn't it better to put a timer instead of these "Very long , Long , Medium , Short , Very short" things ?

It becomes easier to know when to bid and when your bid will end :D

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 05:47

El-Odio

Yesno

It has benefits, true, but that would again make it too easy. Last second bidding should be rewarded because you took the time to figure out when it ended. Also, a timer AND the "each bid increases remaining time"-thing would lead to bidding wars where the AH prices on rare goods explode.

In regards to Omnizoas comment "thats good as it is, as you said before you can always click the buyout function.": No. The Buyout function is exacly NOT for to make a good deal. Buyout secures you the item at the price the offerer demands. Bidding is to cut a deal. Bid-wars are ended by the clock, not by how much everyone is willing to pay. Look at ebay, they don't have such a dumb rule because people don't have the time to stick around half an hour to compete with snugglegramps65 for that fine china cup.
And I honestly think "it's good as it is" without a reason, when someone else gave a valid reason (time and bid-wars), is of no help to any discussion.

But hey, if the dumb rule is removed from the AH, a timer might be ok as well. /shrug

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 06:18

Nexafor

Dear Sir,To be honest I find

Dear Sir,

To be honest I find it rather nice to be able to make material auctions and set them up for 2 days without having to check on them a lot to see if they are sold or not. Usually my items sell the second day, so I will be quite dissapointed if this where to happen and the auction house started getting times between 6 - 24 hours.

It will add stress because there will be gaps where players do not sell much or have nothing left to sell in a daytime because of timezones and the short auction time,which in its turn makes % chance of selling items smaller, making all of us AH traders lose money , and making us pay auction fees more often.

And as a F2P player that would take one of the small things that are fun to do atleast for me out of the game. This can possibly force people to do market spams especially in the material sections to regain profits.
And can make some people quit due to irritation.

I think an alternative idea can be to add a timer to every auction somwhere in a corner next to it to tell you how much time there is left, that way you do not have to go through the effort of figuring out how long the auction is going to last and can tactically place bids based on the time left, especially if you know the bidding ways, like you do :).

A fine day to you Sir,

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 08:02

El-Odio

Where did you read anything...

...about cutting the time to 24 hours or less? What you describe has nothing to do with anything I said.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 08:22

Luguiru

The vague time stamps are to force players to learn what each stamp means, though it can be figured out by asking almost anyone standing around.

The only new time stamps we would actually need, since no one cares if you one have twenty hours instead of twenty-one, are for the time between four and one hours remaining. Three and two hour stamps.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 09:41

El-Odio

The difference is not twenty or twenty-one hours

I fully agree that the three and two hour stamps would be a help, but we are not talking about having twenty or twenty-one hours. We are talking about a "long" auction that could end in a day or less than five hours. The difference is almost an entire day. As an example, a "long" auction could end before midnight today - or tomorrow at dinner time. You would have no way of telling.

This has nothing to do with players "learning" what each time stamp means, because the current time stamps mean literally nothing. Everything above four hours could just as well read "This auction will end at some time - maybe" and it would not make any difference.

Sat, 09/08/2012 - 11:27

Addisond

You can easily check a relatively accurate time estimate by comparing the item you are looking for to other items. Hence, they should just make it time-based.

Tue, 09/11/2012 - 23:22

Exrealz

I Agreed With The Time System Change But Just A Little ~ !

I Only Wanted The Time Words Change To Numbers For Easy Prepare, I Have Experienced Waiting The Item For Whole Day Without Sleeping But Still Stay LONG =.=" The 2nd Time I Off To Rest While Bid A LONG item, The Second Day I Get Outbid And The Item Ended.

Wed, 09/12/2012 - 02:07

#10

Glittertind

Suddenly! Everywhere!

Everyone gets sniped (first explanation) in the last few seconds! Then the players start a crusade on the forums to get it removed again! Woo! <\sarcasm>

I halfway agree that it doesn't make 110% sense as it is right now either, but I think it would be better than a million gazillion players flaming the damn out of the forums and everything they can write their thoughts on. Thus, being better than the alternative.

Wed, 09/12/2012 - 02:28

#11

Animefrek

Something like this?

Blue shard>>> time left 13:27:07 <<<------something like this?

Wed, 09/12/2012 - 03:02

#12

Derpules

Yes to exact time stamps.

No to removing the time extension.

Wed, 09/12/2012 - 21:31

#13

Addisond

You can't get sniped at the last second

The game extends auctions back to five minutes if there is a bid.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 01:44

#14

Glittertind

Yes, yes, but!

Addisond, I'll go right ahead and assume that was directed at me.

Also, if you actually read what El-Odio wrote man, maybe you would've seen why I said that. El-Odio spoke of how he disliked it in the biggest paragraph in the entire OP, this just shows that either you didn't understand anything he said, or you didn't read it at all. (I assume you know how to read since you replied to me in the first place.)

... Commencing spoon-feeding in 3... 2... 1...

"Second, who's idea was it for a bid to increase the time of the auction? "Very short" should be 5 minutes, but if more than one person thinks "Ha, Imma be clever and bid only in the last 5 minutes to keep the price low" a bloody bid-war ensues which is exacly what last second bidding wants to prevent. 5 minutes can easily become over 15 Minutes, hitting 30 minutes if both partys really want it. It is favorable for the one who put the auction up, sure, but this is a bad joke. To make a hard profit you have the BO option, there is no need to screw with the bidding option like this."

Meaning: I no liek biddenwaers an eet huert mehr feelers. :((((
(No offence El-Odio, just trying to explain here.)

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 08:48

#15

El-Odio

That has nothing of an explanation

It's just copy-pasting text and making fun of it.

Back to your argument: Your logic is flawed.

"I think it would be better than a million gazillion players flaming the damn out of the forums and everything they can write their thoughts on."

The only ones who'd whine about "being sniped" are the rich players that could care less about 10 or 50k that they'd have to offer to win. The little man who patiently waits to spend his hard earned crowns to make a good deal would never get upset about being sniped, if the alternative, your alternative, meant he'd lose because he's too poor.
Hard timed auctions that end, when the timer says they end, offer everyone equal chances. You bid at the right time, good for you, you don't, bad luck.
Soft timed auctions, that add time whenever an offer is made, favor the rich and are unfair towards the poor. Giving the rich one time and time again to raise until the competitor gives up, such a system leaves people with e bad aftertaste. The rich one, because he may have gotten what he wanted for less and the poor one, because he never really had a chance. Of course, one party get's what it wanted, but it could have been without wasting half an hour getting all agitated that some dork just doesn't know when to quit.
And then there are the nolifers that spend 6 hours a day in front of the AH showing off their costumes. I guess those are ok with it.

Your "million gazillion players" are just the 1% that already get whatever they want. If you have any valid reason why someone who actually cares about how much he spends should cry about being given equal chances compared to the rich players, go ahead, I'm all ears. If not, then you should keep your exaggerated numbers and your polemic to yourself.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 09:01

#16

Derpules

Assumptions

"Soft timed auctions, that add time whenever an offer is made, favor the rich and are unfair towards the poor."

Correct if you mean rich buyers and poor buyers. What about sellers? Do you think every item was put there by someone with millions of cr? If so, you're dead wrong. Many poor-to-middling players rely on AH sales (of mistcrafted items, mats, drops, etc.) to make the cr they need to progress. Your savings = their loss.

You're too buyer-centric. Think of the sellers, too, and don't assume they're all "the 1%".

Also, what happens when two players with equal spending power, but differing levels of interest in the item, meet? Right now, the player who wants it more gets it. Remove the timer and the player who's luckier and/or has better timing/ping will get it instead. This is not ideal, either.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 10:25

#17

El-Odio

Two words: You can simply set an adequate buyout

As I said: "To make a hard profit you have the BO option"
I have thought of the sellers too, unlike what you accuse me of, but I think an example will make it clear:
Let's say you have an unbound Divine Avenger without any UV and set its Buyout for 15.000.000, while the bidding starts at 1 crown. You will definitly not sell it over Buyout and with a Bidding so low you don't have to expect to sell it for what you want. If that's how you make your offers in the AH then by all means you deserve your loss.
If you set the Bidding so low that you feel like clawing out your eyes if it actually sells for so low, the simple solution is not setting it so low in the first place.

Ever been to ebay? Just set the freakin' price you are willing to pay. It's not so difficult. You bid on something, someone else bids the bare minimum more but you really want it so you go all the way and bid what you are willing to pay. Problem solved.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 10:39

#18

Derpules

Please don't try to school me in the ways of the AH.

I assure you, I am quite, quite familiar with how it works.

The point is that even with a well-calibrated starting bid, your suggestion will mean that--if the item doesn't get bought out--the item will sell for less than it would have otherwise, provided there's actually active bidding for it.

Any way you slice it, you're taking profit away from the sellers. You need to justify that with more than just "Oh, they can always set a BIN." How would you like the opposite retort? "If you're so upset about 5 min auctions turning into 20 min auction, just do the BIN and save yourself *all*that time." Would that seem like a satisfying answer?

BTW, "offer your true maximum, straight-up" is a terrible bidding strategy. "State your true minumum" is a good listing strategy, but the equivalent is terrible for bidding. And it would be an even worse strategy if we implemented your idea, ironically. Without time extensions, there would never be a reason to offer your true max.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 12:15

#19

El-Odio

Your answer didn't give that away.

Your point is what?
Yes, the sellers would make less profit through bidding. OBVIOUSLY. Because it is something entirely new, that bidding gives less than Buyout.
That's like saying "If you offer for less, you will earn less". Also, you are acting as if hard timed auctions would make everyone poor. How so? Yes, a UV weapon won't jump from 1k to 100k in the last 5 minutes, but then again, you could simply have it start at 100k in the first place.

Regarding your argument about the BIN, I have to call bull on that. A seller has completly different options than a buyer. They can set a buyout, a buyer however can not if there isn't one to begin with. And in cases where you actually bid on something, the BO is so ridiculously high, that no one would even consider it. Hence, "If you're so upset about 5 min auctions turning into 20 min auction, just do the BIN and save yourself *all*that time." doesn't make any sense. It's like telling a student who complains about the bus because it takes so long to go and get a car. That's not an alternative.

"Offer your true maximum straigth-up" - in the last 5 minutes if you saw someone else bid on it as well. Then the opposite will think you're business, and back out, or will best you in the last second and you can say "Meh, I didn't want to pay more anyway".
You are as wrong as wrong can be. "there would never be a reason to offer your true max". Really? You must have never been on ebay. If you want something and it will end in less than 5 minutes, while there are others bidding on it as well, then is EXACLY the time to bid your max. If you want it WHY leave it to chance to lose with less than what you where willing to pay? Also, if you bid your true max 1 Minute before the end, you give your oponent less than 1 minute to think about if it is worth that much to him .

If what you said wasn't so wrong that just reading it caused my physical pain, I wouldn't even have answered, as the thread is already a few days old and I have come more and more to realize that OOO doesn't really give a damn about suggestions. But really? With hard timed offers there wouldn't be a need to offer your max? What is this, a comedy show?

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 12:48

#20

Derpules

Why offer your max

when sniping is so much more efficient? Yes, you could put up your true max in the last five mins (which, in OOO's simpler-than-eBay system, means you actually will have to pay that much should you win--that alone makes the comparison inapt). Or you could instead just time it carefully and snipe the item in the last five seconds, saving yourself a lot of cr in the process.

Why choose to lose money?

Re: buyers' welfare vs sellers' welfare, yes, it is bleeding obvious that your suggestion will result in--and is designed to cause--a net loss to sellers. I wouldn't have thought it worth pointing out but for your (now apparently disingenuous) claim that sellers could protect themselves through wiser starting bids and BINs. No, they couldn't: there will always be items that fail to BIN, and these will on average go for less under your system than under the current one. What I want to know is why you think sellers should suffer so that buyers may benefit. Your rich vs. poor argument doesn't address this question; what does?

P.S. I just noticed this little gem of yours: "Because it is something entirely new, that bidding gives less than Buyout." Are you for real? Well-calibrated BINs consistently yield more than bids, on average. A large part of my fortune comes from re-AHing--at achievable BINs--items which others put up with outlandish BINs and low bids.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 17:01

#21

El-Odio

Just no.

First off, the system I suggested in the starting post does not include an actual timer where you could see 0:00:00:05. So yes, you could snipe in the last 5 seconds, but it's more difficult. Yes, you would have to pay the full price. No, it does not make the comparison inapt because you freakin' asked me specifically for exacly that: "Also, what happens when two players with equal spending power, but differing levels of interest in the item, meet?"
That was your damn question and I answered it. You want it more, then bid what you are willing to pay. If it would be a bloody bidwar you'd have to pay it anyways.
Bid is 10k. You bid, he bids, 5 Minutes left, wait 3 minutes, you go and bid 40k and showed how much interest you had. This really only comes to play when we're talking about items that are worth 100k+, because the hell do you start a bidwar on a Reaper Rip and cry if you lose it through bad luck?

Because you said you want the stupid item so much more than the other person.

You are already making all the poor sellers suffer by buying their crap through low bids. So what is your problem? There already are idiots who put their junk up for low bids, and there will be idiots who would do so afterwards. It's their own fault. And it's your fault you don't get that
100.000 Bid / 150.000 Buyout
will still wield a better outcome than
1.000 Bid / 200.000 Buyout
YES, on the latter item there might be a bidwar. But it is highly unlikely that it will go beyond the 100.000 of the other one.

Or maybe you want it a bit more real? A few days ago, there was a Troika CTR High on the AH. Bids started at 1k, buyout was 2mil. After half an hour of people bidding on it, it sold for ~131k, which is basically nothing. If he had set the Buyout to 200k instead of 2mil he would have instantly sold it. If it had been just a bid for 150k, he would have gotten that as well. Regardless of which system it is, with a better setup he could have sold it for a lot more.
People who offer their stuff for bids so low will always make a loss. Right now you seem to make your money that way. So what? The System wouldn't change that. They'd lose their money one way or the other.
To answer your question "What I want to know is why you think sellers should suffer so that buyers may benefit.":
- They won't suffer more or less than they already do. The system wouldn't screw over sellers, that is something they do themselfs.

Sometimes I wonder how you survived till now without choking on your drool.
"Yes, the sellers would make less profit through bidding. OBVIOUSLY. Because it is something entirely new, that bidding gives less than Buyout."
Oozing with sarcasm and with the sellers as subject. Yes, if you sell items through bids you usually make less profit than by selling through buyout. I know, this must be a shock to you, but I think you will manage to survive.
What you seem to have read in that sentence would require a completly different syntax and subject.

You know what, after you've shown us all that you have trouble even understanding simple sentences, I grew tired of you. Go ahead, answer to this. Defend yourself. Reclaim your honor!
OOO doesn't care and neither do I.

Thu, 09/13/2012 - 18:28

#22

Fehzor

Don't remove time additions on sniped bids, but yes, please get rid of the "very long" / "short" one word description system.... I would like to at least have something like "Very Short (3 minutes remaining)" pop up when I scroll over items.

Sun, 04/10/2016 - 23:32

#23

Cobalt-Conqueror

Im on the fence about the removal of time extensions

as I see it, on one hand it would be harder for intelligent players to make a profit.
But on the other i feel like it would stabilize the value of items and general SK Economy.

But Im sure we can all agree that the whole remaining time display would be better off just being a timer.
Ive had many a time (tonight included) im worried about going to bed because i dont know if a "Long" auction will be there tomorrow, or if it'll end mere moments after I shut down.

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Time system for the Auction House is awful