Spiral Knights - OOO END THIS SCAMMING ALREADY.

OOO END THIS SCAMMING ALREADY.

45 replies [Last post]

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:04

Rommil

Come'on guys. Its been brought to your attention numerous times. quit ignoring it.

Once again, someone has bought out all the coral chaps. They are, once again, putting them up one at a time with a 900k min bid 1m+ b/o. The same Jerks [i really want to use a stronger word there, but don't want to get banned] are doing this every time. Its a scam, immoral, dishonest, and unfair. I have no desire to get these items, but i find it offensive that auction house squatters with no life and no job can sit around and monitor it 24/7 buy them out and then resell them at a 250% mark up.

And OOO is encouraging this behavior by your unwillingness to take action. Make the AH rose regalia come bound already. Let the poor players who actually want to use these costumes buy them and wear them, instead of making them have to pay over twice as much compliments of your inaction. Put an end to this shady "Black Market" activity already. This is your game, be a good steward of it. You have certainly fixed things that were not as egregious as this, so its high time this be put to rights.

Sorry for the strong wording, but I find it infuriating that such scummy individuals are allowed to profit so heavily by basically scamming the player-base.

Option B.
If it would be too hard to make them come bound, then make them an open auction like everything else in featured. End this exploit.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:08

Upgrayeedd

capitalism bruh

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:32

Rommil

exploiting.

its exploiting. taking advantage of a game mechanic for personal gain.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:37

Byas

I think it will be just

I think it will be just ignored like last time you brought it up, but I agree with you Rommil. It takes away the meaning of Featured Auctions (making rare items more accessible to players).

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 20:58

Chewwi

Oh gee, I heard that this chap exploit was first done by someone under the name of rommil.
Anyways, Regarding this subject: I (kimichii, semi retiered), have done this many times. It's a very very easy 200k+ profit per chap. And no, I do not camp the AH 24/7 to do this, (nonetheless I used to camp the AH) I have the time rotation perfectly nailed down. So if you want a Chapeau, just do some simple math and be sure to be very fast when the Chaps hit the Auction house.

Now I could post the times here, on this thread, but honestly, what's the point? All this will do is attract more people to buy them and the people who really wanted them still wouldn't be able to get what they want.

This system isn't really unfair and it's not really an exploit. The early bird gets the worm right?
It's like saying it's unfair that 'x' player gets more money than me because he is able to farm FSC faster. As I said, just get the timing and you could get yours easily.

I do somewhat also agree that they should be bound on purchase though. If they did an auction, people may drive prices up so much, that it might be even more expensive than what the retailers sell them for. So the poor kids still can't get what they want.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 21:13

Wodanct

Spending time camping the Auction House to be a "merchant" on a video game. Glad I never went into wasting my life being a merchant on this game when I work retail in real life.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 21:16

Bert-Banana

This is nothing less than intelligence on the person wanting to profit off their investment. Knowing the people that typically do this at to make money, I wish not sharing their names, become successful at this with, like Kimichii said, time and effort. People have put in the struggles to show that they know when OOO is putting up items and they are getting their reward, easy profit.

Rommil, you are a fairly experienced merchant, isn't this something that would work out in your favor? You buy things insanely cheap (peering at your WTS/WTB) list, and make bank off them. I don't think this is something logical to argue about because you're in the business of marketing on this game, therefore you should be in favor of this money-making tactic.

That being said, I think the only reason this thread was published is because you're looking for a chap that is equal or under retail price. Which yeah, that's reasonable, but coming from you, it seems like it shouldn't be an argument that you're to complain about.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 22:01

Canozo

Rommil for president!!!

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 22:11

Hollafamer

Hmm

I have no gripes with people making a profit. I think that a limit on how many you can buy would be a far more effective strategy. Like 1 chap and 1 tab per person.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 22:50

Fehzor

Its a cosmetic item in a video game. I should think there be larger battles for you to fight.

Fri, 09/21/2012 - 23:28

#10

Shoebox

Man, I sure am glad this virtual economics simulator is going well.
I hope my stocks in Snipeworks Construction Co. go up as much as they did this previous financial quarter.
I'll be able to afford my monocle and tophat if they do.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 02:31

#11

Darkbrady

This isn't scamming, this is

This isn't scamming, this is monopolisation; it's used in real life all the time to make money and increase profits. He's taking a risk like any other investment; he could spend 5m buying them all up just for no one to buy them and him have half a dozen duplicates of an item that he doesn't need and no one else is paying that much for.

Something is only worth as much as someone's willing to pay for it; if someone is willing to pay 1m+ for it, then why shouldn't someone else take advantage of the fact that a third party is willing to pay double that of the auction house.

And they're never going to be cheap and easy to access to the poor players because they featured auctions were made specifically for the purpose of creating a gold sink in the game. If they only cost 10k, they might as well not even bother and just give everyone anything they want.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 04:28

#12

Rommil

no chewi

i was not the first to this. It occured to me, but like i said, i find it to be underhanded and disreputable. Ask Strudul. Pawn and i Bought a coral chap for him, and sold to him for 495k, purchase price.

It is an exploit, and i feel the timing example is a perfect illustration of how its exploiting the system. And i'd not be one to do this, as stated, i am against this exploit. The way i buy and sell stuff in a merchanting fashion, i serve a public good through the movement of in-game products. I always pay a person a price that they feel is fair and are happy to part with said item for, and i then sell that item to another individual at a price they feel is fair and are happy to pay for said item. In this fashion, i make two people happy through in game transactions.

--i assure you, no one is happy with paying 900k+ for an item that they know sells for 495k. Simply because they have time constraints on their life that recuse them from being able to squat on the Auction house.

This process is very different then monopolizing (exploiting) an in game system of auctions for a limited number of items. One of the very few places in this game with an actual supply vs demand function. The people who routinely do this are exploiting both the featured auctions as well as the players that are forced to pay 2x the value to even bid on one.

Yes, i could get the timing down too. Not hard, estimate what time frame this auction was to that, then narrow it down over 2-3 cycles, and it would show a relatively static equation as to the time frame they place them. But i haven't, and won't do this, for the above stated reasons.

OOO should fix this. This is not how the featured auction for Rose Regalia was intended to function. Just as they changed the RSS b/c it didn't function as intended, so too should they fix this.

Its only an opinion, but one that i feel very strongly, and thus my duty to voice it. I'd have no right to be upset/annoyed that stuff wasn't being fixed, if i silently observed the problems and didn't bring them to light. Just doing my civic duty.

Edit: i do merchant, but i am not cut-throat make a profit at all costs. Skybrandon found a smoking deal on a flak jacket, but couldn't afford it. i bought it, held it for a day and sold it to him @ cost the next day, just to make sure he didn't lose out on such an amazing find. I could have easily kept it and made massive profits later.

I won't go on to list all my charitable acts, my philanthropy speaks for itself. You wouldn't have to ask for too long before you encountered someone who i have helped out in some way or another, or gifted something to @ random, people i didn't know, as well as friends i hold dear.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 06:28

#13

Darkbrady

This *is* monopolisation; buy

This *is* monopolisation; buy up every version of available [product] and sell it at your chosen price. It's not scamming, it's just running the market because you can afford to. I'm not disagreeing that it's underhanded and scummy, but honestly if people are willing to pay 900k+ for an item that's worth 500k then that's THEIR problem and it's THOSE people that are allowing the merchant to make such a heavy profit. OOO don't need to do anything to stop the merchants, all that it takes to stop them is to have people just decide that it's not worth paying double for their chosen item. Bam, the merchant just lost 5m and is forced to sell at a reasonable sale price, killing their profits.

Something is ONLY worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If people are willing to pay 1m for it, then why shouldn't someone else pocket the difference? Blame the buyers, not the seller.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 07:24

#14

Grittle

This is capatalism your

This is capatalism

your suggestion promotes regulation

and i dissaprove

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 08:58

#15

Glittertind

I say.

Alright, this calls for a political and economical makeover.

Communism. Now.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 09:05

#16

Chewwi

Okay, whao.

"its exploiting. taking advantage of a game mechanic for personal gain.
By your definition of exploit, everything and anything that will allow you to remotely make profit is an exploit.

"I always pay a person a price that they feel is fair and are happy to part with said item for, and i then sell that item to another individual at a price they feel is fair and are happy to pay for said item. In this fashion, i make two people happy through in game transactions."

Such Hypocrisy.
Let me put it into perspective.
You find someone willing to give up a black chap for 500k crowns, and he, as ignorant as he is, would be very happy to do so.
Then, 10 seconds later, you sell it to someone else for 50k ce, and he too, would be very please to buy it.
Now, you've made 2 people happy, that's really great of you.
But I assure you too, no one would be happy to buy it for 50k ce if they knew you had gotten it for as much as the smallest fraction of it.

You're abusing an exploit.
You are taking advantage of other people's lack of patience, of their insight, of their ability to know what's worth what.
And what? You think it doesn't matter, as long as they don't know the price you bought it for. As long as their happy with the product they've received.

People Who buy Corals and Violets pay the price OOO are content with, after all, they are putting it for that much.
Other people who buy them for 900k crs+ only do so because they did not or could not cease the opportunity.
They do not have the time, nor the patience to wait, to buy them. I'm pretty sure some people would be desperate enough to buy them for 900k + because of their circumstances. They're getting their product that they've wanted, but all they had to do to get it was to pay a little extra to make up for the lack of insight.

What's so different from this than from regular merchanting which you so often do? Is it because the product is from a featured auction? Is it because it is taking advantage of the game and not the community? You tell me.

"i do merchant, but i am not cut-throat make a profit at all costs."

You think people who buy violet Chapeaus are? You think that because we buy featured auctions for our benefit makes us self centered jerks with no values or priorities? No.

http://imgur.com/N4jlk
I have bought all 5 once. I Would have gladly offered my services and gave most of them away to my Guildies or my close friends for not a penny of profit. But would I just give it to a stranger for the price I bought it for? No.

TL;DR?
If you're so concerned about this conundrum, Rommil, and you feel as if the people who truly want them aren't being fair to, do something about it yourself. Like you said, you could easily take the timing. Just buy them and sell them to people who really want it for net.
I'm not telling OOO to not take initiative and to leave the system as is. But this is a problem you have a predicament with, so instead of raging about it on the forums, Be proactive and go change the world yourself.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 09:57

#17

Pawn

@chewwi

Rommil would never buy someone's black chap for 500k. Many times we've paid people more than what they are asking for when we see they have no idea what is going on. Then we will also encourage them to use us for price checks in the future until they understand pricing better. You jumped to a conclusion that is simply not true. If you actually read rommil's post you would realize that if someone offered to sell a black chap for 500k he would do something along the lines of informing them a low price for it would be 40k, an average price 50k, a good price 60k. Then he would let them know that he would only be willing to pay 40k and would probably sell it for profit in the future.

P.S. Generally if i plan to resell something i let the person know before i buy it to avoid hurt feelings.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 10:14

#18

Chewwi

No. That was not an assumption. It was an example I gave to clarify. I know how he operates.

Even if he doesn't buy things for lowball, the point is, he still uses some king of exploitations of others, weither it's their patience, circumstamces or any other kind of aspect. If that was not the case then he wouldn't be able to make profit

I do have to admit though, I exagerated the example, but it's all in favor to getting my point across

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 10:19

#19

Little-Juances

Dont buy 'em. Let their inventories clutter with them.

The problem is that someone's desperate enough to buy it at higher prices anyways.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 10:44

#20

Spookydemi

The Costumes should be bound on purchase

It just makes sense. And yes, one person buying all costumes and selling them at a far higher rate is a shark all right. As we all know, there people who play this game as miniature NYSE, and not a game at all.

Gotta make dat money.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 12:46

#21

Aumir

Well

Isn't there some kind of business among some people of buying copious amounts of CE with crowns to sell it in exchange of games in Steam? At least I have heard of this a few times around Haven...

...isn't this exploiting not only SK but Steam?

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 14:35

#22

Rommil

@aumir

no,

That is not exploiting a functionality of the game in a way OOO had not intended. OOO fully intended to integrate SK to Steam trading, which is why they purposefully patched the game to allow for just that. So this serves as a legitimate way of earning or spending your SK assets.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 15:51

#23

Retequizzle

In turn, OOO fully intended

In turn, OOO fully intended for those Chapeaus to be bought out. Who ends up buying these chapeaus isn't their primary concern, and as such, shouldn't be something that needs to be accounted for. If what you mentioned as exploiting was actually frowned upon in everyday life, companies would limit preorders for customers to one per customer, and as a result, eBay resellers would get shafted whenever preorders for new things came around. At the end of the day, the nature of the game ends up being liberally capitalistic, and there's really nothing that needs to be done about that. Yes, it can be frustrating at times, but get over it.

tl;dr - disregard OOO acquire chapeaus

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 17:28

#24

President-Trump

I have to somehow agree with OP, because I've NEVER EVER seen coral/violet chaps in the AH! I do camp AH alot just to buy some cheap mats for dairly use and occasionally hit stuff like this:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=98350578
And lose stuff like this:
http://i.imgur.com/qSdVd.jpg

But I rarely resell and want to buy a coral chap for personal use, until I read the wiki I still blindly thought coral/violet chaps were from pass promos - which was a bit dumb.

Making it bound or setting it as an AUCTION not b/o is probably a good idea.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 17:45

#25

Pawn

@Materialist

The surge and leafy pics just broke my poor pawny heart in half.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 18:02

#26

Rommil

lol

people need to quit pretending like the highly constructed world and economy of spiral knights is an exact mirror or our life, world, and economy in the real world; it is not. And any arguments that uses that as the crux of its position is a scarecrow argument at the very best.

This game is set in a different world. This game's economy is driven and designed in a different way than that of the real world's, and can thus be manipulated in different fashions. Whatever supply and demand components that do exist in this game are affect by an entirely different set of internal and external forces. (for example, there are no trade tariffs, no emissions rebates, no buying shorts and longs) So the economy is a completely different beast than the real world model that some people try to, time and time again, use to explain this game.

Unless John Smith rights the rise and fall of wealth in the spiral knights nation, and then we spend 100 years refining exactly what forces act as the invisible hands to move the market, then people should stop applying one economic model to try and explain, justify, or sound smarter than the next when "analyzing" the SK economy. Its akin to trying to build a nuclear power plant with the blue prints to a bullet train. Both are complex, both require blueprints, both are important with much strategy, research, development, and are expensive. They share many, many similarities, but ultimately they merely share some mutual overlap, while being two completely separate things.

tl;dr
if you disagree and don't believe its exploiting the system, thats fine, i respect that. Then you and I have a difference of opinion, this is healthy. But please people, stop inanely comparing this games economy to the real world economy and practices. They are tangential at best, and are no means mirror reflections of one another.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 17:58

#27

Redblades

what.. the...

This isn't scamming, this is merching.
if you're not happy about the prices, then DONT BUY THEM. if nobody buys them, then the sellers WILL lower the price.
THAT being said, if they ARENT lowering the prices, it means somebody is WILLING to pay the OUTRAGEOUS prices for them.
merchants want the MOST money, and if people are WILLING to buy them for their HIGH prices, then they will sell them for HIGH.
they will also SWEEP the AUCTION HOUSE when there's stuff they can RESELL for higher, because it's easy PROFIT.

SOLUTION: STOP BUYING THAT STUFF FROM THEM. if you can't afford it, or you can't find a low priced one, then it's not the merch's problem that you have a "life".

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 18:00

#28

Redblades

btw

smarten up please. I'm 14 and I can understand that this isn't abusing game mechanics, its taking advantage of LOW PRICES and selling them for higher.
very very simple.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 18:19

#29

Pawn

@ redblades

A persons moral compass will greatly determine their opinion of things. And their opinion of things will conversely affects what they consider moral or ethical. For you to tell rommil to smarten up shows your age, not your intelligence.

Whether or not it is abusing mechanics is a matter of opinion, not fact. For example, read the thread and see the varied opinion on the matter. No smarten up needed.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 18:24

#30

Pawn

Hey Rommil

You should have titled the thread "OOO fix this (IMO) broken mechanic". That way there would have been an intelligent conversation on the situation rather than wannabe economists espousing 3rd grade economic arguments :(

This is a day away from people arguing via wikipedia word definitions.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 18:35

#31

Canine-Vladmir

>:)

setting a troll bomb....
good thing i find Regalias to be ugly. :O

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 19:15

#32

Skold-The-Drac

Long as this isn't done

Long as it isn't done with the future surge flak jacket releases... or other surge item releases. Cause you know it'll happen. :P

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 19:53

#33

Writhes

Dont buy them. Problem

Dont buy them. Problem solved.

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 20:01

#34

Spinex

................

Now I see why people try to hack the game. :(

Sat, 09/22/2012 - 20:12

#35

Virtuewis

I agree with Pawn that OP should maybe change the title of this thread, which to me reads as if OP thinks it is OOO that is doing the scamming (which after reading, I understood that this was not the intended interpretation). Also, I wouldn't call it "scamming" because there isn't anything personally manipulative, coercive or deceptive about this mechanic.

Also, to say that the SK economy is merely tangental to real world economics imo may not be giving the argument enough credit. I do agree that they (sk and irl economics) are not identical, but let's face it... it's still economics. Yes, the real world economy has regulations, but that is in fact what you're asking OOO to do! You are asking them to make the game's economy even MORE similar to the real world economy. You are trying to illustrate that the complexities of this fake SK economy are close enough to those that exist in the real world, and asking OOO to mirror the real world by adding regulations and trade restrictions. My opinion is that it's not a big enough of a deal to me to ask OOO to prioritize a fix for issues like this over the other issues they are working on and new content.

On a moral level, it's impossible to assert your moral compass. Morals cannot be enforced. That's what laws and regulations are for (institutionalized versions of the general moral compass forced upon the public). No one ever forced me to BUY a chapeau. I don't even care about chapeaus. What good would it do ME for OOO to fix them by causing them to bind on purchase over say... finishing the guild hall update or adding a new danger mission? Since I didn't ask OOO to fix anything I personally want them to fix, it seems you are asking for special treatment! Obviously this is nitpicking, but it was just make a point.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 05:21

#36

Sir-Didymus

Capitalism, yes. Working as intended, no.

All limited quantity items directly from OOO should be auctions. The purpose of these featured "auctions" is to be a crown sink.

I have no issue with people buying and selling off the AH, but the intended purpose of the items in question is to be a crown sink. The way the current system is working it is a 500K crown sink and 400K is remaining in the game. As a true auction all the crowns used to purchase the items would be taken from the game which desperately needs crown sinks.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 07:00

#37

Trying

Simply put

They ought to cost as much as Scissor Blades.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 07:19

#38

Yomigama

OOO's probably wont listen to

OOO's probably wont listen to this point but its important you guys out there should. If someones constentlys going to start snatching off the ahs chaps and getting tripple profits, your just making the game worse and less fun for those who might really want that item as a costume. Make the game better for others and others will make it better for you.

Now this point is for OOO. Yes i respect yous are a business and have to earn money but if you keep pleasing the p2p players or richer folk your actually losing money in the long run. The richer folk or some richer folk as said spam buy the chaps off ah and sell them for triple profits to some poor fella who wants it. If you were to please the vast majority of those less wealthy players, you'de therefore make the game better for them and insure they spend more time and possibly some money on the game, instead of making them rage quit, FOR GOOD.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 08:08

#39

Narfle

I get so tired of the same F2P/P2P argument

@yomi: Please don't derail an otherwise useful discussion with the same "Y U MAK FOR P2P!!!1!!" argument. A few players (or perhaps even a single player) are abusing an in-game mechanic to turn a profit; this has nothing to do with that.

+1 to Didy and Rangerwill: the resell price that people are getting is artificially inflated by someone limiting the supply, but regardless, players are still clearly willing to spend more cr on the chaps than what they are currently being offered for from the AH as a featured auction. As Didy mentioned, the newest rose sets were intended as a crown sink, and as a crown sink they're not working on 000's end: either raise the price, or set them as proper auctions to give players the chance to compete for them, and ultimately set a (more or less) stable market price. I don't think we can expect 000 to turn them into bind-on-acquire items without setting an example that would carry over into other items, and risk killing player-to-player trade.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 12:41

#40

Alynn

OOO doesnt listen to the player base >___> Look at the shard bomb update....good example right there.........so much rage about the character creation option change........and the OCH payment method.........

These threads accomplish as much as those petition threads.........not much.

Mon, 09/24/2012 - 19:12

#41

Wulfeknight

This really is not scamming.

This really is not scamming. The OP has just as much a chance to get them as anyone else - if they put in the time and dedication to figure out when the next batch goes live, then they can grab one (or all) and profit as a result.

Time versus convenience. It's a theme found often in the game!

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 04:26

#42

Brychan

If people didn't buy them at

If people didn't buy them at the inflated price the players putting the items up would lose money.

You should be annoyed at players buying them at such prices.

However if you were looking for a solution to this problem: Items bought in featured auctions could be bound to players.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 08:05

#43

Addy

Sorry if this has been

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but the person buying all the Chapeaus is taking advantage of the fact that people who want it may not be online at the time of the Featured Auction ending, and capitalizing on that. By setting an outrageous buyout, the people who actually want to wear it now have the option of getting it NOW.. but paying a lot, lot more than they should. Which I am not saying is right, at all, especially considering the markup, but I have always made more money faster from setting buyouts that were a bit high vs. auctioning alone, at least on bigger pieces.

Maybe OOO could do a bit of research into the prices, and set some more buyout auctions up?

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 08:19

#44

Princeberton

Live Long and prosper

I'm sorry Rommil, normally I agree with everything you and Pawn say, but in this case I don't really see an issue. I understand that this is inconvenient for those who want the costumes, but it's just cleverness on the part of the "scammer". Whoever it is, they are making some smart business decisions.

Tue, 09/25/2012 - 11:50

#45

Amaki

I think part of the issue here is ...

Mass buyouts of cosmetic goods can only be done by someone who has significant funds to begin with. Effectively, what the system allows is for very wealthy players to make even more stupendous amounts of money, while moderately wealthy players are effectively locked out.

I hate to bring up politics in this discussion, but in some ways what we have is a "corporations vs. small businesses" debate. What the original buyers are doing makes total economic sense, but is it the kind of society we want?

Search

OOO END THIS SCAMMING ALREADY.