I agree enough about random boss drops being annoying, but SK had a better comprimise; they're available to find (without needing to traverse some difficult dungeon or specific boss), but random enough that it takes some time to get. It worked. The SK devs do have a habit of taking small problems and overkilling fixes (think back to the Retrode/Wolver/Zombie nerfs. Instead of just nerfing one small aspect, they nerfed like five things, making them a joke) which is what the HoH is; overkill. There are plenty of other alternative suggestions here that I agree with, such as limiting recipes (the basic/mid-level ones, and keeping exotic/powerful ones to Basil), increasing the price of recipes in the HoH, and allowing random Basil to be a cheaper alternative..etc

If you can't agree to remove them from the HoH completely (and believe me, although I disagree, I do understand what you're saying about it) then there should be at least one alternative you could get down with, because you must surely see that giving players access to nigh every recipe in the game so easily is just not an inherently good thing.

The problem with "just running the CW" is that when costs are involved, sometimes you can't justify it, especially if you're not on an EP. Why should you run a CW level that won't pay very well, won't be that hard and that you've played before fifty times anyways? Might break the monotony, but there's literally no other reason or benefit making the trip worthwhile. With Basil, there was at least something exciting halfway through that you could look forward to and potentially even profit from. T'was just that one thing that made regular CW runs feel more exciting and fun.

I'm F2P-player. I love the challenge. I may be grinding for Basil, but at least I'm working to earn me something, not to progress through the game by doing nothing. True, I might run out of energy every day, but with each day, I want to achieve my goal just a bit more. And one day I finally have dat recipe I always wanted, and I will explode in glee.

In other words, it's very possible for F2P-players to love hunting for Basil. Your main argument is thus not too valid(hurr durr Basil damages F2P, promotes P2P. F2P sure hates basil).

Actually, I wanted to post an extra-long post about how working for stuff without it becoming frustrating is a good thing. However, I had to turn off my computer the time I was done, so I will make it short in order to not ragequit.
My arguments: Raising the difficulty milks more fun out of the game per completition percentage(because the actuallyquite important step of getting the recipe right now has been reduced to a trip to a hall), many people that knew the game before all the nerfs and stuff actually would appreciate the game becoming harder, your earned weapon looks all the more awesome than the one you get technically gifted, getting rid of it would technically enable the recipe-market again, I'm most likely a masochist that likes getting beaten because the victory is all the more awesome then, the game's spirit is that of the games in the good ol' days(notice the beeps and boops in the OST? They reference this), which also were particulary hard and were so damn fun because of that, blah blah blah insert important argument I forgot to think of here.
Your arguments(in my mind, anyway): Getting to Basil is inconvenient because it involves playing the game instead of calmly walking into the next free-recipe-filial, F2P-players would hate it because they could use the energy to farm dukes and kings for even faster game progression, arcade shouldn't be forced into being done despite being the main part of the game(had a good laugh on that one, why shouldn't game designers force you into the main game?), I'm lazy and like having it the comfortable way.

I think that pretty much sums my opinion up. In case it didn't already, this picture shall describe my opinion in more detail(it's a picture about Dwarf Fortress, in case you don't know it, dwarf fortress difficulty essentially translates into "Very, absurdly hard". I hope this doesn't count as inappropiate, despite the depiction of some blood in black and white). In essence: Hall of heroes is "casual". It's nice to have stuff right in fornt of you, ready to be enjoyed. However, it's boring, no particulary event and it ends as fast as it started. Going Basil is, in a major exxagaration, "Hardcore". You see the fun right in front of you, but the game isn't willing to handle it to you right there. You fight longer for the fun, you have fun trying to get your fun, and the whole event takes longer, is more fun, but also more difficult and could be frustrating to the impatient ones... nothing in this game compares to Dwarf fortress. Nuthin'. However, in this case here we could use it as an exxagaration to say: The harder the game is, the harder it's to get the fun, but the sweeter the fun is and the more fun you get.

You don't seem to get that you're one person. How you enjoy games is up to you. OOO won't change things to suit individuals. They'll change things to suit the masses. Not everyone is going to be happy with repeating the same thing over and over and over, to no result at the end of the day. If the random "choice" fails day after day, people will get bored and stop playing.

That's likely what OOO wants to avoid. They want MORE people playing, so they're accommodating the easy way AND the hard way. The easy way does, in no way, affect the hard way. It's just giving players a quicker option. If you don't like it, suck it up. You're not the developer.

In other words, it's very possible for F2P-players to love hunting for Basil.Your main argument is thus not too valid(hurr durr Basil damages F2P, promotes P2P. F2P sure hates basil).
No less valid than your "let's make the game harder so, you know, the game takes longer".

The harder the game is, the harder it's to get the fun, but the sweeter the fun is and the more fun you get.
This is hardly true. If the rewards are the same, but you make the task more complicated, you make the rewards bitter.

Regardless, I will say one last time, you need to entice players to the Arcade, NOT force them there.

I'm out.

EDIT:
All recipes from HOH gtfo. It should be only a place to see them not to pick and buy.
Please... PLEASE, tell me you aren't serious...

Every time I see that abbreviation I think of HoH SiS from a YTP.

Good stuff.

You pointed out the flaws in your own logic. The players on this forum responded positivly and thats a VERY VERY small percentage of the population .Most of these posters are biased anyway,look at asukulan who made q completly irrelevant ridiculous idea.Also Masterofkings wasn't saying this oppionion was better than yours he was saying that you are pretty much an exception. I think its highly unlogical unless we can get CE prices down.

@Everybody think long and hard before missions energy was LOWER which means we could make BACK our ce to keep playing. Now energy is HIGHER so we CAN'T make our money back off the arcade.Masterofkings was completely right make the arcade more appealing instead of forcing people ( we've both said it in almost all our post).

Kazujaxyz, where are you digging this up from?

I never claimed my opinion was better; I claimed that your opinion isn't better than mine; nor is it more important than what the developers believe.

Asukalan alone just proved you wrong.
I fail to see how. (S)he made a ridiculous suggestion. I was not claiming that it's just you that feels this way. I was claiming that the percentage for it's removal is only a small percentage of the total game's audience. OOO is looking to support the most players it can, not make their game uber perfect for a select few.

that damn boss weapon upgraded will share my opinion
What is this about? I fail to see how the HoH has ANYTHING to do with boss-token weapons/gear.

You're not the developer, either.
Yes, I don't develop SK. I am, however, an independent game developer; so I'm taking this from the view point of the developer, not the player.

You are just a small person holding on your illusion that convenience equals fun, and difficulty equals frustration.
You don't seem to understand the concept of people's attention spans. The difficulty curve for SK, as I see it, won't change a single bit.
The progression curve, however, gets longer. Casual players will drop off.
You're trying to milk the hell out of the game, not make it any better.

The game does take longer, or require more skill. However, one thing is for sure: I don#t get the "achievements" stuffed down my throat, and thus, advancement feels good.
Achievements have NO relevance to the progression curve. You'll only feel "better" as the process is long, and tedious. You keep failing to realise that casual players are not going to be happy with being forced into repetition for the sake of actually getting somewhere. What's worse, it's luck-based too; so upgrading may NEVER happen, if you didn't approach the AH.

The rewards don't taste bitter if you have to work more for it. I don't even need to give a counterargument, because I failed to follow your logic how turning an achievement into an actual achievement by working harder for it.
Don't even bother with a counterargument, cause it'll likely be crap anyway. If you have two routes, one slightly faster; and you force the harder route down the throats of every players (key word there, every), the reward is worth less. The reward is no better than if you did the easier way, it's just more difficult to get at. So, it's more relief than accomplishment that you feel.

I'm sure if we'd have a vote asking all veteran players wether the HOH should stay or go love itself, the latter would win, simply because this hallway adds so little and takes so much from the game feeling.
I'm sure if we'd have a vote asking all new players whether the HoH should stay or go, the former would win. So what the hell is your point?

@Severage: Yet again, I'm saying this. We are NOT saying limiting the HoH would force the Arcade upon people. We are saying that complete removal of the HoH would. I agree that maybe the HoH should provide the basics, so people can still progress; but need to work for more specialised gear is a good idea. Having them rely on Basil for EVERYTHING, on the other hand, is not.

My point was just that the HOH could as well be removed from a technical point of view, as it doesn't add as much as it takes... however, I also said that we should rather nerf it to the extend it has no global advantage over Basil and thus, over actual effort, just BECAUSE people like you have these kind of opinions and have some comfort.

In other words, why discuss stuff even though we pretty much want the same solution, only because we have different opinions? I say a game makes more fun if it's hard, and that everyone who wants reward for doing nothing is lazy. However, you say that comfort makes games more fun, and also that making a game harder adds nothing but overcomplication to it.
At first I really thought you fail to see my point, but obviously you don't, and you stand to your opinion. Okay, I respect that. Fighting for who is right will keep going on forever anyway. We both want it to be limited, because that's the most logical approach, pleasing everyone to an extend, I was just stating that technically, if we'd have to choose between having the hall and not having it, I'd rather get rid of the hall altogether, because currently it just takes so much from many people in the game.
Actually, I'm an ongoing game dev, too(ongoing because of course, I didn't develop anything big right now, but I know one's stuff about game design and stuff. And no, I'm no wannabe: I teached myself C++ and I'm currenty doing my A levels in computer science). I love hard games, and I love it when a game just doesn't hand you over progress just like that. While I do not loathe easy games, they are over faster, don't require you to learn more about the game to win, and they generally are just less fun to play in total. A game you really have to learn about is hard at the beginning(not necessarily frustrating, but you need to learn about the game and how to play it well), but the fun increases potentially with each bit of progress you get, both from the game's perspective and your actual skill level.
It's basically a debatte between hardcore vs casual. No side wins, because it's just two different ways to look on games. No side is wrong.

Why my change of heart? As I said, I first thought you are failing to see my point of view. Actually, it's just a debatte of hard games vs easy games. It's slowly devolving into a flame war, having nothing to do with the topic anymore actually, so I'll stop it here with the conclusion that we both kinda are in the right, but we both view things differently. Of course, I also don't want to waste my and your time with a discussion that has no logical conclusion where one of us is right. So can we just cut that war short and just say that both sides can be considered completely right, depending on personal preference?

So, to make the post actually have to do with the actual topic:

So, so far we have:

1. No special gear for the HOH
2. Maybe a rise in prize in the HOH(200% sounds absolutely reasonable IMO, as it gives recipe-merchants some room in prize in the auction house and discourages using HOH too much)

Anything else?

It's nothing to do with trying to be better than newer players, but when a discussion comes up about a large change made in the game and teh discussion involves both players who came before and after it, it seems arrogant for new players to come in and demand that it never change if they never actually played the game without said change. The veteran players aren't saying "we were here first, do it our way" as much as "we've experienced both situations and know which we prefer; you haven't, and are talking about what it was like before you joined"

Pretty sure "the final decision" lies with OOO. And has already been made.

Besides that, I still think veterans can decide such a thing MUCH better than people who never get to experience the old game.

Having people that form their opinions based on what they actually experienced as a player instead of what SOUNDS better just seems better, nostalgia or not.

But like I said, sometimes nostalgia clouds our judgement. Sometimes we forget what something is like, and our experiences aren't going to be like everyone else's. It may not seem like a big deal in hindsight because all the stuff is done and behind us.

I have rolled a new character every now and then and I haven't really tried a purely free to play experience, let alone in the economy now that the exchange is 9k. It's important to make a game experience for new players because there is a focus on being able to keep and retain new players so that they can keep the game going. Both sides are important but I do think the new players and their experience is heavily underestimated and taken for granted. There's already quite a few things to grind through and I wouldn't want yet another thing tagged on top of that. It can be really demoralizing when you have limited runs, limited energy and limited crowns. As others pointed out it may seem easier with the HoH but the progression itself isn't easy.

I think part of this is a resentment of the recipe market. And even then I really don't want much to be player run at this point. The economy is player run and as you can see that pretty much caused a handful of players to drive up the exchange with bid walls. There will always be someone trying to exploit and run up what they can, and recipes were one of those things. :/

Edit: And once again what is stopping you from hunting on your own? No one is forcing you to go into the hall of heroes and slapping you with a ruler if you do your own hunt. This problem is purely on your end since you are admitting that you somehow can't avoid using the hall of heroes.

Maybe it's because I'm trying to collect wall weapons in the game but between the 4/10/25k recipe costs, the elevator costs for the run, the time it takes to fill the heat, collecting the mats and paying another crown and energy cost on crafting, yeah, I think it does add up over time. And it's less of a deal for pay to play players but if you're a new person then each bundle of 100 energy needed to craft is going to be another 9k on top of that. So if a person just wanted -1- five star item to craft, they not only would have to unlock the hall of heroes (which means getting yourself all suited in 4 star), but they would also have to collect at least 63,000 crowns (for 700 energy and then 100 mist), and then 25,000 crowns for the recipe, and then another 5,000 for the craft. One-hundred thousand crowns really sounds silver-plattery, doesn't it?

This game is full of sinks around every corner without recipes being easily attainable.

And I don't see the instant gratification as much of a dilemma. It's still the problem that you aren't avoiding it, and why not if there's such a disdain for instant gratification? I honestly don't get this at all. Want a challenge? Make it yourself.

It's like pokemon; those who find the game too easy do nuzlock runs. There's really nothing stopping you from having these things except for your own sense of restraint. Impose some rules on yourself! You don't need the game to do it for you!

Having to hunt on limited energy or get jerked around by the player market though is just another thing tagged onto the cost though. Basil runs still cost energy, and they still delay it.

And I think a nuzlocke run is a good comparison. If you think something is too easy then make it harder for you. There's people on wow who do something similar where they run "naked" and try to make it through the entire game without armor or dying. I just feel like saying something is too easy is a little inane when you have the opportunity to avoid the parts that are easy.

Also adding artificial challenge like added costs isn't going to change the true challenge of the game that comes from practice and play.

If you are too lazy to get to the last HoH then you will not even get those recipes. I know that there are many people who do not do the missions so they have not gotten the ability to buy all the recipes there. I like that I can get a recipe for a good price at the HoH rather than the AH where it is more money to waste.

Not total removal.

I don't get the positives of pre basil, as It wasn't fun and AH milked me out of grinded money.