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Some basic suggestions from a newbie.

10 replies [Last post]
Wed, 05/04/2011 - 15:06
Milski
Legacy Username

OK, I just hit T2 and have been kind of floundering there (I've lost energy, although I am not entirely certain it is my fault). But I think that I've got a basic grasp on the game, and I think I can make a few suggestions; if there's anything about the game I've got wrong, tell me.

First off: Guns seem kind of terrible. They're OK if you're in an area where the enemies vastly outdamage you, the enemies don't dodge attacks and also can't be stunned by melee, the enemies don't have a healer, and if the enemies can't just close the gap/fire at range. Maybe increase the speed a bit after shooting? I dunno.

Second: In general, it's too difficult to dodge attacks in the game, not because the enemies are tricky, or have a neat pattern to them, but because enemies are hard to knockback in a lot of cases, your attacks don't stun enemies well enough, there's huge lag after the attacks that do knockback, and the enemies can vastly outrange you. I don't think the game should be made "press right click, win!" but it's kind of dissapointing when I have to take a hit even if I perfectly get the enemies right next to me with a charged attack, spin, and then get smashed by an enemy who was out of my charged attacks range. Combined with guns taking forever to kill anything (or never killing anything, with a healer around) and the game, at points where the enemies don't die easily, becomes a tedious back and forth of trying to hit the healer, running around in circles, and occasionally taking a swipe at an enemy miraculously away from the group and PRAYING that he starts charging his attack late enough to block/run from it. I dunno how to fix this; less lag, less range on enemy attacks, more hitstun on common enemies, smaller mobs, or hell, even a quick dodge button you can use to cancel attacks and roll away would be cool, and that would make it so that you could take less damage with some skill, instead of just a freebie.

Third: Get rid of the arbitrary damage restriction on lower tiers. It's pointless. The game is fun, but it's more fun when, if I go back to T1 for whatever reason, I'm one shotting mobs, not arbitrarily dealing as much damage with my level 10 calibur as I would deal with a level 3 proto sword. I mean, if you're going into anything below level 8 in T2 gear, you're going to run around basically invincible anyway unless you try to kill yourself, so slowing it down is... meh.

Fourth: This one I could be wrong about, but it seems as if the first few levels of T2 enemies (9, 10, 11) give many fewer crowns than floors 5, 6, and 7. I haven't seen anything in those levels drop a single 25 or 50 crown piece, and that's frustrating because the levels are already much tougher; I don't want to go back to stomping easy enemies my sword is arbitrarily nerfed to not kill in one shot, but it's much more efficient and much less deadly.

Fifth: Make combined regular and elemental/piercing/shadow attacks a T3 thing, not a T2 thing. I mean, it's kind of common sense here: A single element attack, when resisted, is one damage, while a physical+something else automatically does two damage no matter what. That's a major reason of why I feel T2 is less rewarding right now; above all else, even if I'm wearing great gear I'm taking double damage.

Sixth: At the moment, it's fortunate the market leaves new players with the ability to continually explore; assuming they join a party and skip floors one and two, they can probably get about 6000 crowns per 100 energy, which is good with the market price at 4000. However, this will not always be the case, and there should be some form of plan to help newbies into the game once CE starts inflating. My suggestion is, when it starts inflating, some NPC can sell "exploration only" mist energy tanks (only used for reviving, going down floors, and operating doors) at a set price; it doesn't do anything for the CE hungry rich guys going for high end gear, but it does allow new players to actually sustain themselves without waiting until they hit the point they can buy 100 CE for less than 100 CE of exploration.

I dunno, maybe I just suck at the game, but I think a lot of these things could stand to be improved. The game is fun, but not without flaws.

Oh, PS: Screw brambles, all they serve to do is make fights more annoying and make it harder to grab loot after a tough fight. Just make them into spike traps, or better yet, make them slow you down while running through them so they're still risky, but not just damage tacked on because you want your loot.

EDIT:

A couple other things: Enemy interactions to weapons need to be standardized; I'm not saying the big guys need to be stunned from every attack like the little guys, but there shouldn't be some enemies that get knocked back so far from the second hit that the third hit in a combo just leaves you open to a counterattack while most enemies are hit just fine, and the fact that (and I could be wrong) certain enemies sometimes get knocked down/interrupted by attacks but sometimes not also makes it very frustrating to play against them; either make sure you can't knock them back and give players ways to avoid getting hurt if they try to combo (if they can't be stunned, make their range shorter than the players and give them enough delay that you can hit them with a third slash and still at least block it); it's just another source of weird free damage taken. It also wouldn't hurt if certain enemies had their animations updated so it was more clear their attacks were guaranteed to hit by tracking, not in a line; the ghost things in particular turn very slowly but still hit you if you're within range, sometimes even curving what seems like 90+ degrees to get a hit during their attack.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 16:26
#1
FlashbackJon
Legacy Username
Woah woah woah...

Please don't do any of these things. Almost everything listed here is the reason I like the game. Complications (brambles, enemy patterns, figuring out attack timing and knockback, attack arcs) are the things that combat in this game is fun, active, and engaging and NOT insipid and boring like most MMO-types.

I'll expound on this later: I'm going home. :D

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:00
#2
Sasuke
Legacy Username
Get a Spur instead of a

Get a Spur instead of a Calibur. The increased speed is more forgiving when you're still getting used to comboing things to stop them from attacking, and the damage difference isn't that noticeable until you're making 4* gear. And for guns, fire in smaller bursts so it doesn't do the reload animation, and look into models that do piercing or elemental damage.

If you're having trouble with mobs with healers, go with a party. There's a reason RPG heroes can win boss fights but still get wiped out by groups of normal enemies, and it's called attrition.

The way the tiers work, as far as I've seen, is that T1 is the introduction to the game, where you pick up the basic skills needed to survive; T2 is the main grinding area, where you really master combat and make your strongest gear (hence the huge gap between 3* and 4* equips); and T3 is where you put it all to the test, and really kick ass (or get mauled). Making the last few levels of a tier give better drops than the first few of the next tier is good because it lets you get useful items without having to deal with a much more powerful set of monsters (and, coincidentally, causes you to burn more energy, but that's another issue).

Mostly, it comes down to whether you want an easy time, or you want to really work and learn to understand the game mechanics. Learn which enemies react in which ways, and react accordingly. Spiral Knights is fun because there's more to it than just optimizing stats, skills, and equips. If you can't use tactics well to fight, then it won't matter how much you spend on 5* items.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:22
#3
Merethif's picture
Merethif
Some comments from not a newbie.

1. Guns are not terrible. I'm doing fine soloing up to terminal at T3 with guns only and without extra weapon slot (no revives if I don't lag to much and not doing anything stupid). You can outsmart dodgers and healers if you use proper handgun/strategy/tricks.

2. This game focuses on shielding rather then dodging, but I agree that lagging is an issue. Almost always when I have to revive (or be revived) it's because of inability to retreat/shield because of lag. I endorse less lags.

3. Damage restrictions are great. I'm doing T1 and T2 of almost every new gate because that way I have free access to Emberlight (I don't have to pay 500 crowns to get there via given gate). It would be ULTRA boring doing all those T1 and T2 without a chalange. Now, when I'm doing T1 and T2 with my 4* gear it is still a game, not a grind.

4. Tiers are constructed this way so you have to pay at least 40-50 energy to really start to gain coins, no matter if you start on T1, T2 or T3. On every tier first levels are less profitable. That way, no matter how advanced player you are, you still have to spend some energy and time to gain lots of crowns. There's no easy gain.

5. I don't really get your point here.

6. I don't see your point here either.

7. (brambles issue) So, basicly, you just need an easier game? Brambles are part of a chalange. Actually, I would like to see more hazards/traps in this game. Maybe you shouldn't rush into T2 like there's no tomorrow. If you have difficulties with hazards and combined damages maybe you should spend some more time in T1: learn some tricks, do some testing on low stars weapons and find weapon that suits your style.

8. (knocked back enemis with second hit issue) I really can't comment on that, becase, as a sharpshooter, I'm rarely within enemy range (unless some swordman pushes it straight into my face :-D ).

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:36
#4
Milski
Legacy Username
Please read what I am saying

There is a difference between "difficult" and "frustrating" or "not surmountable." There are plenty of instances of difficulty in the game; huge mobs, high damage relative to the player, healers, lots of things to pay attention to, ranged attacks, etc. That is all stuff that is fine. The parts I mentioned were the frustrating parts; the fact that there are monsters that don't properly show you they're going to hit you, the fact there are situations there is no way to avoid a hit, the fact that guns are terrible (that's more balance). There is a key difference between "hard", which, for a game that's similar to this, is what Monster Hunter is, and frustrating, which is what many of these are. Things like how certain enemies sometimes get knocked back and sometimes don't, or how there are enemies where following up with the third strike in melee will just cause you to get hit (and if you don't follow it up, you're going to get hit by something next to you) are not just difficult, they're frustrations.

Also, I still don't see the point of guaranteeing double damage in T2 while allowing T3 to take less minimum damage, or why T2 makes less cash than T1. Both of those seem rather silly, and I don't see a good reason not to keep farming T1 for now (if the response is "so you can get materials" the answer is "I make more of a profit buying them with cr from T1 than I do finding them in T2).

EDIT: There is no challenge in T1 even with the damage restriction, and I do not see that changing when I get even more max health and status effect resistance. It's sort of difficult with T0 gear, but at the moment the damage restriction only adds to the grind because it takes three times as long to kill everything as it should.

EDIT again: My points on 5 and 6 are simple: For 5, the "minimum" damage you can take is always 1 of each element of the attack (unless you shield or dodge it). If you start allowing combined attacks (two types; normal and whatever else) at T2, the minimum damage goes from one to two... but on T3, you allow attacks tat are only the special type, which would bring the minimum damage back down to 1 (assuming enough resistances). That just seems kind of silly; the minimum damage jumping up so much at T2 and going down at T3 doesn't make much sense. 6 is basically saying the game needs to plan for when Crown inflation causes CE to cost a lot more, at which point newbies will have no way to actually continue the game without waiting constantly. That's a pretty bad thing.

As for 7: Making players spend energy in order to make money is kind of a farse. For one thing, the easy option (join a random party, go solo, receive free floors travelled) works out well enough to get you to skip the hard levels anyway, which isn't exactly good design on its own right, but I guess that's that. The problem is that, at least for me, after getting T2 gear there's no reason to actually go fight in T2 when it's much more profitable and safe to stay in T1. All making it take a while to get to actually profitable floors does is increase grind and, I guess, keep crown inflation down, but it still feels annoying going from making 1k crowns a level to barely pulling the 400 needed to make it worth the 10 energy, especially when the cost to revive (not that I use it often) goes up by 2.5x and the enemies are dealing (at minimum) double damage.

As for the point about brambles: It's not that I disagree with traps during the fight. It's just that brambles make after-fight cleanup excessively difficult. Maybe I should have just suggested that items don't spawn in bramble squares, so you don't have to take damage to grab your loot; that would work well enough.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 17:51
#5
Merethif's picture
Merethif
Additional comments

So far, most attacks I've seen on T3 are not "only single type" but either normal or "combined" just like at T2. I may be wrong though, as I'm not regular T3 player yet (just doing some recipe hunt to T3 terminal from time to time).

As for the brambles, you can always shield yourself to grab a loot.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 18:02
#6
Sasuke
Legacy Username
All I can say is grind and

All I can say is grind and practice, yo. When things don't get knocked back or have their attacks canceled, it's usually cause you messed up the timing without realizing it. You need to learn the nuances of the situations. And having just made T2 stuff, you probably shouldn't be running through T2 anyway. Stick to grinding T1 for a while, and work on your 3* gear. You'll need to be grinding the bottom of T2 for your T3 gear anyway, no reason to rush. If the challenge is that big a deal for you, dust off that 0* equipment and have at it.

As for inflation, you seem to be forgetting that this is a business, and the whole idea is to make people choose between waiting or paying to play more.

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 19:52
#7
Gwenyvier's picture
Gwenyvier
1. Guns are useful, I mostly

1. Guns are useful, I mostly use swords and carry a gun for triggering switches, bomb blocks, and other minor things. I have been partied with people that use just guns and they hold their own just fine.

2. If you see the lines coming from the monster and you're not going to be able to get off your final combo hit to interrupt them then you either stop the combo and move out of the way/shield, or try to finish it anyways and see if you timed it right. Usually the former. Some enemies have fairly big attack boxes (example: Lumbers) learn them and how not to be in them. We have swords that can cover a full 180 degrees in whatever direction we're facing, why can't the monsters have attacks that do the same?

3. The restrictions are good, when you decide to help your friends through the lower tiers it keeps things interesting as you can't just go "I AM TEH SUPER UBER KNIGHT OF DOOM! *swing swing* EVERYTHING DEAD!" I actually love tier 1 danger rooms because I know I can kill everything in them without any real issue but if I don't pay attention the things can (and will) still kill me.

4. Already been stated why it's like that.

5. Tier 1 you just receive physical (red) damage. In Tier 2 you start to receive mixed, its never actually stated the amount but I'm of the assumption its about 75% physical and 25% other, it's meant to teach you that you might want to start getting armor that provide other defense in preparation to Tier 3. If you're not prepared that means your armor may block a good chunk of the physical damage, but the other damage is going to go right though... its a learning curve. Tier 3 you get the full mix, I believe 50/50. So if you're STILL not prepared you're going to get hurt.

6. Bad idea in general. The CE prices seem to be fairly stable at 4k=100. It will fluctuate some but having purchasable ME tanks would mess up the economy.

7. Brambles are fine. Again, hazards keep things interesting. You can shield when entering them, although your shield might not last the entire trip through if the item is far in, aside from getting loot they're pretty easy to avoid.

8. There's different scenarios as to why enemies don't react the same. Did you smack the zombie while it was in mid jump? Was the enemy charging for its strong attack? This is like #2 you need to learn the enemies. Gremlins and wolvers can dodge. Most constructs can't but they often have more interesting abilities, like the floor laser from Retrodes. Later Tier wolvers can teleport, and do it frequently. Kats will dash at you, if close turn and bite (and can turn over 180 degrees) if far away can spit an energy ball.

~Gwen

Wed, 05/04/2011 - 22:27
#8
Raul
This isn't just mindless hack

This isn't just mindless hack and slash like Diablo, you actually have to think strategically for each enemy you encounter. Yes I can go blasting in T2 with my Vile Striker, but I will end up sure as hell dead in a few hits.

Speaking of strategics, I still haven't figured out to effectively kill those damn Gremlins (without taking shield hits or life hits.)

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 09:33
#9
siopao
Legacy Username
Guns are perfectly balanced

Guns are perfectly balanced IMO. if they did as much damage as swords, you pretty much make them superior in most everyway. also, if you take advantage of the damage types, you can pretty much hit as hard as swords with guns already so i dont see your point.

if you expected to fight ALL enemies the SAME way then youve got another thing comin. ive only been playing a little over a week and i already wish i had more enemy types to fight since ive already figured out how to best engage most enemies in game.

Thu, 05/05/2011 - 13:08
#10
Milski
Legacy Username
OK, did nobody read what I said?

I didn't say this was too hard. At all. The game is, in fact, pretty easy. T1 is an absolute joke (unless you go in with T0 1 heat equipment and start at floor five), and T2 is not difficult except for the fact you're taking one-tenth of your base life every hit and, in large enough groups, there's a critical point where anything but running around occasionally swiping once will cause you to take damage.

What I did say was that the game had many frustrating features. There's a key difference there; it isn't "strategic" or "hard" that enemy interactions aren't consistent, or that sometimes your third swing of the sword will miss entirely and just send you swooping into the enemies, or that if you charge up an attack and don't miss you can still be hit during the lag. That's what I want to be changed. I don't want the game to be mindlessly easy (running though T1 is already far too easy as it is, even with the pointless damage cap extending how long it takes), I just want the difficulty to come from watching the enemies and planning your attack, not because the ghosts can be facing upward and hit you when you're to their lower left, or because you can land a charged attack on a group and still get smashed because you can't activate your shield to block the (not large) enemy unit that massively outranges you, or because you have to memorize which enemies get knocked back too far for a third swing to be useful, so you have to swing twice and then sit (again, very vulnerable) because you can't follow up without being hit. Those are the kind of things I want changed.

As for the guns thing, maybe I haven't encountered a useful gun yet, but their AoE is small, they're slow, and enemies either have ranged attacks which WILL hit you if you try to shoot them, or they have ways to get close to you which will cause you to have to stop shooting and run. Guns have a small AoE, deal roughly half damage, some enemies automatically dodge them most of the time, and they aren't even that effective at kiting enemies around; I don't want them to be amazing, but they still feel massively lackluster.

Finally, the mist energy thing: I am not suggesting it NOW, but there needs to be some way to allow new players to get energy when inflation kicks in and makes it impossible to afford CE without spending over 100 energy.

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