Character Tier
Mon, 12/13/2010 - 16:10
#52
Kaybol
Legacy Username
I agree with BehindCurtai.
I agree with BehindCurtai. It's not a problem. It's a phenomenon inherent to the game design. It shouldn't bother any other newbies as it will be a vast minority who will skip "progression" in this way. Haven will still be crowded. I totally fail to see what all the HWFO is about.
Mon, 12/13/2010 - 17:12
#53
Chronus
I don't think it's a problem now, don't get me wrong.
I don't think it's a problem now, don't get me wrong. Honestly I like the fact that it's currently this way, mainly for testing purposes. I believe the real problem will come once this game is popular with thousands of logins daily. The gap between payers and non-payers will be immense, as far as I can see. (Even right now it's this way.) Come the official release, the issue I have mentioned will probably be a much more serious one.
@Kaybol: I can tell you, the fact that CE can get you to the top of the tier overnight is, for the most part, going to bother people (mostly non-payers). It already does bother people. (If that's what you were referring to.) And just to make it clear, there really isn't any HWFO. This wasn't even meant to be an argument, it was supposed to be a "creative" discussion based on the issue I brought up, but apparently a lot of people on here like to argue for the sake of arguing. Haha.
Anyways, to put this thread back on track (as I have been seeing some good ideas), lets try discussing some creative ways of implementing a system like this. Also, try not to mindlessly argue with each other if you do so. It just makes you look like an idiot when you pick things out of someones statement and argue with it for no reason. Therefore please refrain. This discussion is now officially about ideas towards implementing such a system.
Fri, 06/10/2011 - 16:07
#54
Anix
Legacy Username
Upgrade equipment system
My suggestion is that SK use an equipment system like that of Dark Cloud. I will list the major characteristics that would be implemented into SK.
-equipment, when they reach a max amount of heat, can be upgraded to the next "level." Levels would have a cap of 99, and the amount of heat required would increase too.(sounds the same right?) rather than equipment leveling up automatically, players would go into the menu, equip materials to their equipment (See dash 2), and then level up their equipment manually. Some may say that manual leveling is a hassle, but I say it would be worth the ability to customize your equipment. Upgrading could require, say, X amount of ME, where X is the next level. This would still allow three rings to make money and would push players towards building up (dash 3) their equipment quickly, rather than decking out their equipment before building up.
-materials, which are currently used only for forging, could be attached to equipment in material slots (default 2, a UV could be for 3-4 slots), the materials would then be melded with the equipment their attached to when the equipment is upgraded (dash 1). Materials would add or increase certain stats of equipment. This would allow players to customize their equipment.
-Building up. When equipment has reached a required level for stats, equipment could be upgraded to the next * level, Ex. upgrade a 2* Calibur to the attack and/or speed required to build it up to a 3* Tempered Calibur and build it up when you want to after you've hit the required stats. Building up equipment could still take energy, but not nearly as much as it would take to forge from scratch, maybe 10 from 1-2*, 25 from 2-3*, 50 from 3-4*, and 100 from 4-5*. Plus, the stats of your customized equipment would transfer over to the next level.
-pros. The upgrade equipment system has many pros for all partys. Three rings could still make their money but players who aren't willing to pay money can still get 4-5* equipment through upgrading. Some may say that players would get bored of level grinding to get 4-5* equipment, but I believe players wouldn't become bored because they are upgrading "their" equipment. The equipment their upgrading is taylor-made to the stats that they want their equipment to be. This system would also make 3-5* equipment less intriguing because it won't be as strong as the same equipment that has been upgraded from 1-2* equipment. Customized equipment could also not be sold at the auction house because, to customize equipment, you need to level it, which requires that the equipment is bound to you.
-cons. Creating the upgrade system would take a major patch, and thus, a lot of time and money that three rings probably doesn't want to spend. Some players (the instant gratification players) would quit because they do not want to spend the hours upgrading their equipment. I can't really think of any other cons besides that.
Got any other ideas and/or pros and cons that could refine this idea? feel free to post them. Maybe Three rings will take a look if this gets enough posts.
Fri, 06/10/2011 - 20:44
#55
PeterS
Legacy Username
I don't see the point.
What's wrong with someone skipping ahead to T3 by getting gear early? There's no competitive aspect to Spiral Knights - it's really all about players going through and enjoying content at their own pace. If someone wants to skip to T3, well, the net effect is that there's one more player playing T3. I consider it more or less equivalent to a player deciding to keep kicking around in T1.
I mean, what are the tier differences? I believe that they specifically aren't "gain more crowns and heat" - only pre-terminal / post-terminal affects that.
1. Enemies shoot more bullets
2. You probably have flashier charge attacks
3. Bomb blasts are bigger!
4. You die faster if you get hit
5. You fight a different boss, if you're doing the boss gate
6. You can buy recipes of your tier
So, which of these is problematic if people have access to it "un-earned"? #2, I guess, maybe? Sorry. I've seen posts like this, but I don't see what the point of locking players out of hard mode until they've played a lot more easy or normal mode is.
Sat, 06/11/2011 - 10:18
#56
Anix
Legacy Username
I disagree
@PeterS
I'm going to have to disagree with you. Players who jump to tier 3 can quickly become bored with SK because they've already acquired all of the best equipment. With my suggestion even tier 3 players can strive to upgrade more powerful weapons and it will allow beginning players to actually play to tier 3 with equipment that they've built up.
On a side note, SK has breadth, but not depth, which is why jump starting to tier 3 is detrimental to players' activity later on.
Sat, 06/11/2011 - 10:50
#57
PeterS
Legacy Username
Beginning players already do that
Players who take shortcuts finish the game faster? I believe that's the point of short-cuts. Compare and contrast with the warp whistle, for example - it's what they've signed up for.
As for beginning players gradually working up to T3 - yes, that's what most of us do right now, and that's what I'm doing now, for example.
Adding 99 levels to equipment will either... well, require leveling on old content to continue on to more interesting content (boring!) or allow leveling to trivialize once-difficult content (also boring!). It'll also restrict player ability to try lots of different play-styles.
Sat, 06/11/2011 - 11:59
#58
Anix
Legacy Username
Granted, players who wish to
Granted, players who wish to jump to T3 are free to do so, but I'm just saying that the majority of players would rather customize their equipment while working up to T3, rather than forge weapons up to 2* before having to 1) buy 3-5* equipment through the auction house, 2) spend money to continue forging equipment, or 3) spend countless hours getting enough CR to trade for CE. I would rather spend the hours that I'd put into option 1 or 3 upgrading and customizing my equipment.
Also, there doesn't have to be 99 levels, just a higher max than 10, maybe 20- 25. And, players don't have to upgrade to level 99. They would just need to upgrade their equipment till it can be built up which, depending on how efficiently they utilize their upgrades, wouldn't take that long.
And don't think that I'm the only one who has had this idea. See http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/8140 to find what someone else's variation is on my idea.
Curtai I get what you're saying and I think we are still misunderstanding each other a bit, plus some difference in opinion.
My point is that it is possible to go right from the Rescue Camp to Emberlight. Whether it's very probable or very improbable is irrelevant. The fact that it's possible is what bugs me, whether it's by RL money, luck, or just plain kindness from some quitting player.
I do not think it is right to have this ridiculously long jump. This is obviously my opinion. If you, or anyone else, disagree(s) with it, that is your opinion. I simply don't understand why you are trying to back up your opinion as if it is not just an opinion, but a matter-of-fact. It's not. It's your opinion. This is why I believed you just like to argue for the sake of arguing.
"If you want to make "Top of the line" equipment hard to get, then the top gear should require heat to become good."
"If you don't want people to just buy the best gear, then 5 star cold gear must be worse than 4 star hot gear"
Was that the only solution mentioned? Actually, I don't think I even mentioned that myself. Hah. It seems the conclusion of your latest argument was based on this mentioned idea, however this is not even a fraction of the ideas that have been shared here. I suggest you read some of the ideas, or think of your own, and try to sort out what pros and cons of them. There are a lot of reasonable and "fun" solutions to this issue, with varying levels of "looseness" as far as this progressive jumping goes.
I think, Curtai, you are basing a lot of your argument off of the fact that "you want to have fun", and this is what a game is about. True. However, as honest a person as you may be yourself, not everyone has "fun" on a game the same way you do. There are certain people who have "fun" by obtaining the best stuff and showing off, picking on other players, scamming people, etcetera...
To be honest with you, I would actually find the game more fun if I was forced to Level my stuff up and this was the form of progression. As in, I didn't have to "do it myself" because I want to have fun. The fact that I can do it more-or-less cuts my motivation in half, mainly because another player could come along and achieve what took me 50 hours of work, a mere 5.
I simply do not like the fact that it is possible to be traded the best stuff and equip it right then and there. Period.