For the last Vanadamn time, the old RSS was NOT OP...

Yes, it was the bombers' answer to Blitz. So we had ONE bomb that could rival the damage caused by the brandish or alchemer/autogun lines. Furthermore, my impression of 'OP' is that it is something one can mindlessly spam with little to no skill and easily defeat any enemy. RSS required skill to use - you had to repeatedly weave in and out of enemies, and lure them into attacking so that they step DIRECTLY over the bomb for maximum damage, high risk high reward. Also, it only one-hits zombies, YAY NERF PLS?! It takes too much trouble to get a trojan's weakpoint to be directly over the bomb, gremlins and fiends dodge the shards like there's no tomorrow, and beasts are better handled with DBB. Just because a bomb is supremely effective against one enemy that makes up the majority of one particular dungeon, it's considered OP?
Brandishes have great crowd control, decent mid-range, close quarters, different lines that can cater to different mobs, but it's left alone since swords are supposed to be a mix. Guns can shoot anything from mini-bombs to sticky bombs to shotgun pellets that also rivals damage from brandish/SS lines, as long as it shoots out SOMETHING. And yes, I'm repeating the same stuff all of you have already seen a gazillion times, because till date, the logic behind the RSS change is just mind-boggling.

I do not agree that the new RSS is a more 'team-oriented' bomb than the old RSS. For one, all the shards knock enemies around quite a bit, more so when they get hit consecutively by 2 or 3 of the secondary shards. Teammates either have to wait for the shards to finish detonating and then attack, or risk swinging at air or having an attacking mob knocked back into their range. If you argue that "Oh, you need to place it strategically", then I will ask you this: Define 'strategically'. I cannot expect my teammates to quickly calculate/estimate where the enemy will get knocked to in those short few seconds prior to the shards' detonation, not to mention each secondary shard has a different fuse time, and even if they could, why would I want to put them through so much hassle when I can just drop a vortex and everyone will immediately know where to unleash their barrage on? For a 'team-oriented' bomb, it sure doesn't seem like one.

How is it irrelevant when I said that RSS was only supremely good against zombies but average/troublesome against all other mobs? Did you also conveniently decide to feign ignorance just so that you can continue with your "RSS is OP" stand?
It was ridiculously useful in FSC, no doubt. In LD, it was one of two viable direct damage bombs (the other being Nitro, and three if you consider DBB as being viable for LD) and it required opponents to actually be wary of their surroundings, but that's too much to ask, mirite? After all, anything that can counter a Skolver clone setup is OP. I'm surprised no one has complained of VT being OP. Oh wait, UVs...
I don't know what your abbreviation of GY is, but I'm just gonna assume it's a level that the RSS does somewhat better than expected of a bomb whose damage type is resisted by the mobs there. Not exceptionally better, just slightly more effective than, say, DBB in IMF. Apparently that's enough to make it OP.

Well whatever, you've already decided that you're not going to respond, and even if you did, we'll just be beating a dead horse again and again, so I'll stop here too.

Yes Fradow, I wanted to give it a chance and brought its elemental version into FSC on numerous occasions (and with a vortex too). About a third of FSC is usually solo'd by players (D24 running to wheels, D25 rooms, D27 running up steps), and in the places where everyone has to work together to progress (D26 left path 2nd party button, D26 & D27 final room, for example), I noticed that the shard bomb did as much harm as it did good, if not more. Mobs were taking longer to kill due to the knockback bumping them around and out of teammates' attacks, and even I myself got hit several times because the knockback just so happened to bump the attacking mob right into me. Switching to Vortex+VV got rid of this problem entirely.

I have only ran into another shard bomb user once or twice, so I cannot comment on whether using 2 or more shard bombs together can do more good than harm. My first impression from those scarce encounters were that it was still quite bad. I'm also confused as to why you would consider it a 'team-oriented' bomb if it REQUIRED the presence of another shard/vortex bomber to accurately pull off the combos specified in that link. Doesn't a team-oriented weapon simply make it easier for the team to handle mobs with whatever weapons they have, or be a weapon that complements whatever playstyles/loadouts that your teammates have? If it REQUIRED another shard/vortex bomber, then I'm actually restricting their loadout, which to me isn't very team-oriented.

How is it irrelevant when I said that RSS was only supremely good against zombies but average/troublesome against all other mobs?

Zombies: Annihilated them.
Kats: Annihilated them.
Puppies: Best bombing option for them, and killed them decently quickly at that.
Constructs: Could still onehit them, thanks to bonus negation.
Fiends: Annihilated them.
Slimes: Annihilated them.
RJP/FSC: Overkill.
Beasts: Damage was fine, but caused dodging.
Gremlins: Low damage and caused dodging.
LD: Best dps bomb in there, and could get great scores.

I maintain "you were using it wrong". RSS was in every one of my bombing loadouts and could be used virtually anywhere to excellent effect. When RSS was weak, it was bleh. When it was strong, it was sheer overkill.
Like blitz. Sheer overkill on trojans/fiends/beasts, so it's called OP. Ever tried using it against puppies? My CiV can destroy puppies faster than Blitzes. So why are blitzes called OP if they're not OP against everything, if we follow your definitions of OP?
Stop thinking about zombies and think about other places. Did you ever use RSS in RJP, for example? It's "average" there, but was still pretty damn strong. To give an example that was a fairly bad run of RSS without maxed stats, that still managed it in a minute. I've seen the RSS' clear JK in half that.

Also, GY = Graveyard.

Well whatever, you've already decided that you're not going to respond, and even if you did, we'll just be beating a dead horse again and again, so I'll stop here too.

Beating a dead horse? Oh no, my point completely invalidates what you said, I just don't feel like writing it all out for you on this thread when I gave you links to a thread that has it already all written out. Your laziness does not defeat my point nor does it make you correct.
I did a JK run yesterday with shards and it went as well as anyone could expect, considering it was my first ever JK with the current shards and the person I ran it with didn't even have the correct type shards. Competitive times, before you ask.

EDIT:
Again with your arbitrary definitions. Team-orientated does not mean "works great with any team, ever" it means "designed to be used in teams". Again, read the links I gave you. Seriously, it'll start to come together and you can stop making random guesses.

It's not that I know your playstyle, but if you think the old RSS wasn't OP then...you were using it wrong :s

It's like someone saying Blitz is a perfectly balanced, fair weapon and is not OP. It's just....wrong. They're clearly not using it correctly if they believe that. Something being OP is rarely, if ever, a matter of opinion.

I try to stay away from the rage threads but the comment I've gotten most often when trying to use RSS in a teamwork situation in PvE is, "Please stop. We can no longer see what is happening."

@Griseolar:
I'd understand if that was the case. Optimum usage of the shards required very specific timing to have the target land on the rad. Even a second or two off would allow at least half the shards to fly off and deal no damage, thus making the shards appear very average in terms of dps. Zombies it would be fine either way, but when using on targets such as slimes, this was essential. This can be demonstrated on the JK video I linked, where many of the bombers shards missed the JK and caused the kill time to reach over 1min. A bomber with perfect timing would have landed most/all of the dets underneath the JK and allowed all 8 shards to hit him, vastly increasing dps.
Latency would certainly not help this issue.

@Asthix:
*sigh*
Read the thread in question before you comment on a quotation from the thread...

@Atrum:
Hey, I've already said that I don't know why they didn't just add the new shards and nerf the old RSS. Why they felt the need to completely replace it is beyond me, and I have stated my thinly veiled opinion here.

I'm fairly confident that the main reason they removed it was that they didn't like the idea of a bomb, which is supposed to be aoe/crowd damage, being able to onehit targets. That's the closest to a legitimate explanation I can conceive that would explain "not bomb-like enough" but even then, there are other options than to remove it completely, especially when they persist in buffing weapons like Blitz and Brandishes which contradict this reasoning.
I wouldn't oppose the reintroduction of RSS, nerfed or otherwise, but I am (now) happy with the current shards as well.

Don't you love it when someone posts and you can so clearly see that they've not read a single post in the thread after the OP? I've addressed every single thing you mentioned! :D

I don't blame you though; I don't always read every post in a thread either :)

If your entire party has to choose their gear to work around the weapon you're using, then what you have is the exact opposite of team-oriented. A team-oriented weapon is one that supports your party while allowing them to enjoy the game on their own terms. At their best the new shard bombs go in the novelty bin with Neutralizer.

I think of the Shard update like a lemonhead

At 1st lick, you will want to cry

But once you went to the core, its all sweet and hippies 60's land

instead making more specialized, less generalist weapons

Would have to disagree there. Currently, the shards are the only weapon in the game that has access to all three damage types, and have a couple of status variations on top of that. That makes them the single most general-use special type weapon in the entire game. Using it in such a way (described in the thread I linked) keeps it competitive with most other weapons in the game and because of the three special types this means you can literally use the shards anywhere you want. Blitz is OP? Take it to a Mech Mile and you'll start pining for Pepperbox. Use shards wherever you want, whenever you want. They're certainly not more specialised, they were made to be used anywhere you want as a general, all-purpose bomb.

Though I do agree (I think?) that we need some more niche bombs. Currently trojans, puppies, most bosses (excluding JK, primarily), slags/dreads, ACs (well, basically all enemies with shields) are a terror for bombs. DBB works nicely enough against trojans but is slow and only because it's easy to get them to stand still. All other shielded enemies like to move around a lot, and we have no bombs useful for that whatsoever. Killing puppies with bombs is just exhausting.

@brady I'm glad you and a few friends have found a way to enjoy the new bombs. Although I do have to somewhat disagree with your idea that these are team play bombs. I have read through your linked thread and it's not that I'm denying your conclusions on the damage output getting better when more of the group uses the bomb but I would say it makes it better in specialized team play. I can run the whole CW with Bio and Nutralizer but it does get quicker and better on the damage when there are 3 or 4 doing the same with me. The problem is that these groups rarely exist unless set up before hand thus making it a specialized team play where the guns mentioned or these bombs get better.

I do miss my old RSS but I know that we will never see them again. My biggest beef with the new bombs is that we never got what we were promised.
"Please also note that it is not our intention to reduce the power of these bombs in any way."
"Again, it is not our intention to reduce the effectiveness of these bombs."
"So, we’re making this change because we want all bombs to feel like bombs- weapons that when used, create areas of damage on the playfield and feel like they pack a punch."
"3. Damage is always scaled based on star rank and depth, so no, nothing will be made weaker for the sake of a new bomb coming out."

Maybe had they listened to some of the feedback and acted on it we just might have gotten the bomb that these OOO quotes speak of. As of the RSS change I just haven't felt like supporting OOO with my funds any longer. I was not opposed to the change, even though I knew I'd be loosing a faithful friend in the old RSS, but was looking forward to the new bombs spoken of pre-release. The fact that they implemented these bombs while disregarding all of the testforum feedback was a major slap in the face just like when I bought OCH specifically for the bomb only to have the rug ripped right out from under my feet a week later.

OOO seems to be leading bombers by the hand into a support only role so now I have to ask, if that is your intent OOO then why don't you give us less disruptive bombs that won't get us kicked out of PUGs? Please OOO listen to your player base and do some thing with these sup par bombs. Since the change I have resorted back to playing more with guns and swords because my fun in bombing got cut in half.

@Echoez:
I only used Blitz as an example. There is no shadow/elemental Autogun, so short of relying on Pepperbox (which has only half the damage output of Blitz) you're not going to get your 4k+ charges fired anywhere you feel like, whereas you can use your "shards" absolutely anywhere in the world. Bring the piercing and elementals to FSC, bring shadow and elemental to RJP, bring piercing and shadow to GWW, for example.
I would like other niche bombs, but not at the cost of losing a fun bomb.

@Akvar:
The damage output increases very noticeably so, was the main point. Going from slow, counter-productive and clumsy bombing with one bomber, you can very suddenly jump up to competitive runtimes.
And I'm aware that you can't rely on this for random joins, but saying "that requires people to set up beforehand" is exactly my point. They're trying to encourage people to set up beforehand, decide on loadouts that work together and play as a team. Currently, FSC is just "Do you have Blitz? Cool." Doesn't matter what else anyone brings, as long as at least one person has a Blitz, the rest of the loadout is utterly irrelevant. I don't see setting up before a run as a bad thing, personally; it seems to fit the atmosphere of this game very well, considering they want people to play with multiple combos, weapons, loadouts and armours, rather than just cloning each other.
I accept that gear imbalances play a role in that, but my point is that the new shards appear to be a step in the direction of rectifying that.

As for the promises and old RSS discussion; I've already agreed on that fully. But I don't see a reversion being likely, so am trying to make the best of the current shards instead.

@Wodanct:
I feel you, dawg~ Giving players the choice would have been good ettiquette, rather than just bunging us with the one they'd randomly designated the fiend line. Personally, "deadly crystal bomb" sounds more pierce-y to me, too~

EDIT:
Well, not much can really be done about that. Some people just get laggy from bombs. Suggestions thread: plenty of "ultra low" gfx settings suggestions, or suggestions for reducing graphical effects of flash bombs to be written/discussed etc.
Personally, I've done 3man pure sharding runs and been fine, save for Vanas Mask Phase/Puppy rooms where the bullets are impossible to see.

Do you not see what you just did there? In the very same paragraph you said you don't think teaming up with pre setup works, you announced that you'd like to team up with someone with a pre-setup.

See where I'm goin' with this?

Also:
Our RJP run was as fast as any regular, our FSC run (with pure shards; no other bombs at all) was a bit longer than regular (non-OP) runs. I feel with bomb combos we could do it in competitive times, and I'll confirm that soon enough. LoA was at a decent speed, although we were fairly unsure what to do there, since half the key enemies had shields and moved a lot which was the main thing that slowed us down.
Basically; it allows regular run speeds. Bit slower without practice, but insert some tactical combos and teamwork in and you'll be running no slower than your regular gear.
However, I don't see them being viable for speedruns of any kind, but that's neither here nor there.

Yes, it can be hard to find a group willing to work together, but that's mainly because people have got themselves into this soloist attitude of just bringing their own perfect loadout and doing their own thing, on their own, in a party. Which is why I've been saying that I feel the shards are an attempt to rectify that by encouraging the very opposite, by encouraging people to sync up and work together in a way that people just don't bother doing right now. It's my entire point; people should start doing it more. Shards give us a reason to do so, by making it fun!

I see a big difference. In FSC all I need to do is make sure that at least one of our members has a Blitz. Beyond that, people may have the same or different gear, but it won't complement each other; it'll just be three people with a sword, running around doing their own thing completely.
With shards we can take a few minutes before the run and discuss our play, what we'll do, who'll do what.

For example:
One of us will carry DCB, EV, VV and DBB, the other will take DCB, SSS, VT and another EV/haze

That's not two players cloning and just going off and doing their own thing, that's two players making a build specifically to complement each other. One of us drops an EV while the other drops a haze, then we both drop shards, then one DBBs the Trojan while the other continues to shard and haze.
It's working together in a fashion that current swordy loadouts simply...don't do (often? I don't want to say never, but it's not something I ever see).

My last post wasn't a dig at you; I was simply emphasising that "it sounds fun". It makes people want to do the run. I talk to Bombers about it and they all want to do runs with me, to try it out, to mix it together, to see how it goes, to have fun.
Skip the bomb part and say "Wanna ddo FSC?"; mostly likely I'll get a "Meh, maybe".

Say "Hey, let's gear up in shards and work together" suddenly people get interested; whether it's FSC or not just becomes irrelevant; it's actually the bombing that's fun.

And not just because it's new, shiny, fancy bombs that no one's played before (well...maybe a bit) but because the builds are all about combos and working together. Not just two people swinging swords at zombies or spamming charges and happen to be in the same room; it's actually, genuinely working together. My last partner and I had the timing of our vortex+shard combo down perfectly by the end of the run, since we'd spent the whole run playing about with our co-ordination and teamwork. It was fun in a refreshing and new way.

And people know it without even trying it, too. Am willing to bet that's (at least partly) why you said you were interested in trying it out~

-SSS, is inferior to the DBB in every single way imaginable when it comes to enemies weak to pierce
Due to Devils unpredictable nature, I prefer SSS over DBB for them. It's easy for them to jump out of a DBB and ignore all the damage, whereas they don't respond to shards on the ground and happily stand on them and get caught. Stun only serves to make this easier and easier to do as they get slowed down. DBB wins for Trojans, but SSS wins for the rest of Fiends. When it comes to beasts, they're actually about on par, when shards are used in teams~

@the rest of that paragraph/your post:
Well...read over my previous posts on this thread, I've covered it all really. I consider the secret behind shards to have been cracked~

Depending on depth (and other factors) a DBB with enough CTR can make it impossible for enemies to escape it. Once you hit them (and knock them down with the blast) you just keep planting bombs on them. This is of course factored by party size, depth, and amount of bomb damage you have. Max bomb damage will give you the best knockdown results with DBB. If I ever bomb I have VH bomb damage (merc demo set + bomb ctr trinket + bomb dmg trinket). Once in awhile wolvers won't get knocked down until the 2nd bomb.

Most of the time I'm just a typical soloist setup with a sword, ctr high electron vortex, and a gun. Yeah I haven't used 4 weapons since last summer when I realized a person doesn't need 4 weapons to make a optimized set.

-Edit-

Welcome to Graveyard Number 2.

Agreed, even though doing so would make me feel stupid for selling my RSS.

There was nothing you could do with RSS that you couldn't do with a Blitz/Brandish* in slightly more time with far fewer risks and/or bonuses needed.

The only shards worth using are the Shadow & Elemental ones, and even that's only due to having no competition (and in the case of the latter, even that is debatable using AoA or when the Status is more valuable than the damage)

*The RSS's Gun & Sword equivalents (which I would like to note were not nerfed despite being just as "OP", if not more so due to the fact that you could do regular attacks with them as well)

I still only use the one, main knight character in-game.

Stun is no longer horribly bugged.

In fact, I've found that nRSS is now a valuable support weapon as the stun slows enemies down by a higher degree than stagger storm.

I think you missed my point; no matter what they could have done to nerf it so that it wasn't "OP" would not have been enough, allowing it to still ohko single targets and be "OP". If they nerfed it beyond that, then it would be utterly useless as a spread bomb, as each shard would have to do less damage than the current shards do. It would make the bomb completely useless. There's no way to change the old RSS and "balance" it as a crowd control/aoe bomb that wouldn't destroy it anyways. A complete overhaul was the best way around it.

Although, as stated, I still think the old RSS should have remained in game to some degree, even just as a LD bomb...

I think of the bomb as a frag grenade

I saw it as a grenade, too. Personally I think it's the most bomb like bomb we had; the closer you are, the more damage you took. Ofc, it also created the problem of shifting damage ratios onto single targets as opposed to rad damage like blast bombs.
I'm fairly confident that by "not bomb like enough" they meant in terms of "it was limited in aoe and better at 1v1ing" as opposed to the obvious idea, since we have so many other mixed weapons, and they went on to release an incredibly gun-like bomb at the same time.

I honestly can't think of any way to change the RSS into what they wanted without changing it completely. The intellectual debate thereafter really just comes down to "did it need to be changed at all?".

Also, I've been talkin' to you for a few posts now and I just have to say that I love your name. Makes me think of pokemon, for reasons beyond my understanding~