Spiral Knights - Nerfing the specialized armor, just a little.

Nerfing the specialized armor, just a little.

16 replies [Last post]

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 15:03

Soupgenie

What I mean is this:

-Wolver set gets an Attack Speed Decrease: Low for guns, but bombs are untouched. Some swordies could use an AoE weapon like the Nitronome or Shivermist Buster for crowd control and range advantage, oftentimes. Though I can understand why many swordies use guns, bombs can be preferable as well.
-Gunslinger set gets a Charge Time Increase: Low for bombs, but swords are left alone. A reliable gunner doesnt need to rely on AoE or sometimes even status effects due to range advantage (though crowd control is always a problem, so I'm not saying statuses are for noobs or anything), and could sometimes rely on a backup blade. Like when facing Devilites, for insance.
-Bomber set gets an Attack Speed Decrease: Low for swords, because bombers are already close to the fray to plant their explosives, so a sword wouldn't be as necessary. Guns keep a neutral standing with this set, because sometimes bombers want to keep a gap open so they have time to think about their next bomb placement.

-NOTES: While it is true that I openly hate how overused the Wolver line is, I'm not here to rip on it for once. If I hated the entire Wolver line, I would also have to hate the Bomber and Gunslinger lines, because just like Wolver specializes in swordplay, the former two sets specialize in demolition and ranged fighting, respectively. Now, I have experienced every playstyle (full sword, full bomb, and full gun), and as a pure gunner out of preference, I sometimes notice people in full Snarbolax (armor/helm, not costume) using only guns. Why, I ask, when Dread Skelly has better defenses? That is just one example of my query. I understand that sometimes a beginning bomber may want to keep a sword handy, and a fellow gunner may want some explosive stress relief/gap opening, like myself, but I believe that a backup gun for bombers can be just as effective for emergency situations. A backup sword can also create the necessary gap for gunners, unless its a Cutter. Even then, Cutters can soften targets up for a ranged finishing shot.

-Obligatory mention of Plasmatech Swag. Thats all I have to say.-

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 15:23

Juances

So you can use Swords with Bombs, but not Bombs with Swords. Same pattern for the other combinations.

Doesn't make sense.

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 17:07

Soupgenie

Plasmatech Swag

Precisely. The idea for the Wolver, Gunslinger, and Bomber sets are so that the entirety of your loadouts consist of only swords, guns, or bombs, respectively. However, to those who may or may not panic at times, like say a newbie who is wearing full 2* Wolver, they have a backup option for these times of need. You aren't supposed to have a sword/bomb/gun combo with any of the sets, unless you combine the gear. Which is why a Wolver-wearing swordy shouldn't have to rely on their backup weapon so much, at lest not by the time they reach Tier 3. No one needs the crutch if they know what they are doing. The category of weapons unaffected above in each of the sets would be that crutch.

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 17:36

Forum-Brady

I approve of the idea of

I approve of the idea of nerfing offensive sets (as I've stated myself in other threads that I don't think tank sets need a buff as much as offensive sets need a nerf) but I don't much like your idea for it, as (personally) I'm a hybrid player, and wouldn't like any mix-hybrid sets to be interfered with by such a nerf. Something like that would need to be quite carefully considered. Personally, most of my loadouts consist of bombs and guns, so I wouldn't like to be punished for that choice, by using Shadowsun and boom mods, for example.

However, in principle I like the idea of thinking about other, more outside-the-box nerfs other than plainly just "reduce def/res".

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 17:46

Soupgenie

Plasmatech Swag

Mixed hybrid sets. If you want to mix up your weapons, which is what everyone does, hell, even I used to be a musketeer (half sword, half gun) but I never used weapon specific sets. I just used whatever armor was good at the time, like Mercurial for Piercing, instead of Wolver, which has less defense. On a side note, I never said anything about Drake Scale. I believe that has a sword bonus i have no problem with. Either that, or beast. Too lazy to check. And I'm not looking to "reduce def/res," as you say, just reduce speed and charge time.

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 18:00

Forum-Brady

Personally I like knowing I

Personally I like knowing I have the option. I don't do it much, mind you; my main Hybrid set is Chaos and all, but in LD especially I like to mix it up; my recon for example, always has a Hail driver to hand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating your idea; I don't think it's a bad idea as such, and wouldn't QQ if it was implemented I just personally don't like it, but in the same way that shockwalker Skolvers wouldn't like it if shock immunity was removed, for example. It affects me, so I'm naturally opposed, but the idea itself is solid and reasonable. Although, would need to be balanced out to consider what's "fair": you suggest that swordies should have gun reductions, but the overall playerbase may disagree, for example.
But then again, that's what this thread is for; to get opinions and see who agrees with your suggested setup~

(as a side note; I am an advocate for reducing defences of the offensive sets. Liek you say; why should someone use Dread Skelly when they have a Snarb? Why use Jelly Shield when you have BTS? Reducing the defences forces a tradeoff for other, blank defensive sets)

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 18:34

Soupgenie

Plasmatech Swag

Thanks for the opinion, and lemme make a little correction there. I said I would prefer Dread Skelly over Snarbolax, not the other way around. Also, the Snarb-wearer was full-gunner. Never bothered asking him if it was just for teh lulz though.

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 18:50

Luguiru

What if weapon specific bonuses, like sword damage on Wolver and charge on SDemo, simultaneously became negatives of the same amount for the "vulnerable" weapon type against whatever the bonus applies to? For example, bombs are "good" against swords, so using VDemo with its +2 bomb charge per part also gives you -2 sword charge per part. Or if you use Shadowsun with its +2 gun damage per part you would also get -2 bomb damage per part. Universal bonuses/penalties like those on Chaos and APlate would not be affected by this because they affect all weapon types simultaneously.

More emphasis on weapon specialism, the deeper you go into one weapon type the more distant you become in another.

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 19:04

Forum-Brady

@Soupgenie: I said I would

@Soupgenie:
I said I would prefer Dread Skelly over Snarbolax, not the other way around. Also, the Snarb-wearer was full-gunner. Never bothered asking him if it was just for teh lulz though.

Oh, I may have been unclear; I was agreeing with you on that. People use Snarb (even as non-swordies) for the Shadow defence becasue there's honestly little reason to choose a real shadow defence set over an offensive set with the exact same defences. Like, why bother spending the ce to make a shadow def set if your current Snarby does the exact same? I'd rather see a nerf in the offensive sets defences to encourage tanking sets, give them back a use.

@Luguiru:
What about sets like Mad Bomber, where they already have a balancing nerf? Would they be affected in such a way as you've suggested as well as their negatitves, or be exempt becasue of the negatives?

Mon, 11/26/2012 - 19:23

Luguiru

I meant the weapon bonuses like sword/gun/bomb damage/attack speed/charge reduction, not defenses against damage types or status resistances/vulnerabilities.

As far as I know, which is checking the Wiki while typing this in case I forgot, there is no equipment which penalizes one of the above features of a specific weapon type. There are things that penalize damage dealt to families like Fallen (-2 damage against fiends per part), penalize a specific feature of all weapons like Plate lines (-1 universal attack speed per part), and give universal bonuses like Chaos (+1 damage and charge reduction to all weapons). Nothing says -X damage/attack speed/charge reduction (negative charge reduction is charge elongation, meaning it takes longer) for swords/guns/bombs. Mad Bomber gives +2 bomb charge (reduction, meaning the charge takes less time to prepare) and damage per part, neither of which are penalties. Unless you hate bomb bonuses. Or if you meant the lower normal defense and status weaknesses which has nothing to do with weapon bonuses.

How about some Queen?

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 03:56

#10

Darkbrady

What was meant was that your

What was meant was that your suggestion/idea entails incurring a penalty onto offensive sets (wolver has +sword damage, so give it -gun/bomb damage etc).
But all the sets you listed have no penalties at all, so you'd be adding penalties onto sets that have a lot of bonuses and no kind of penalty.

However, Mad Bomber has penalties. It doesn't have negative sword/gun damage or anything, but the heap of negative resistances are a penalty (to make up for the +4 bonuses), so would you still suggest giving it -sword/gun damage on top of all the negative penalties?

Because if so, that would be a very heavy set to use, with a lot of punishment. Or would you consider the negative statuses enough of a penalty to not warrant having negative sword/gun bonuses, too?

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 05:20

#11

Fehzor

I'd rather see this implemented as a new set of armor to be honest... something like-

+4 stages of damage for swords
-2 stages of attack speed for guns

A cool idea, to be fair.. very original. Changing the originals is not a good idea though IMO- they're not nearly as strong as you think they are. Unless its skolver in lockdown.

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 05:26

#12

Darkbrady

Unless its skolver in

Unless its skolver in lockdown.

You're misplacing blame of OPitude; Skolver is no scarier than Snarby or Vog or Shadowsun; it's the Heart Trinkies that cause the problem.

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 05:54

#13

Draycos

Skolver is by no means more powerful than Snarby/Vog. Lockdown makes it appear that way since ASI and pure damage have their levels of usefulness switched around, and most of the best weapons for PvP happen to be swords (one being full pierce). In a theoretical (and hopefully never to appear) situation in which Flourish weapons were changed to deal Shadow or Elemental, or new lines were added that did, you'd see a lot more people using Vog/Snarby.

In PvE, though, the three lines are almost identical in usefulness.

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 06:03

#14

Darkbrady

That was exactly my point;

That was exactly my point; it's no more scary than the others.

What I mean is that it isn't "Skolver" that makes clones scary, it's the heart trinkies. Even if they kept Skolver on and dropped their heart trinkies (even if they replaced them w/ asi trinkies) they wouldn't be half as scary as they are right now. It all comes down to those Pentas letting them tank 3x as many hits as they should be able to.

All I meant was that a lot of people mistake Skolver for the culprit of strikers OPness.

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 13:29

#15

Soupgenie

Plasmatech Swag

I'm glad to see that someone agrees with my point of view, Luguiru. I don't care for defenses here, just the specialization. Because they are specialist sets, they have lower defense than the armor suited for the different damage types, such as Jelly. So that means if you know how to use the weapons the set is specialized for, the lower defense shouldnt matter if you never get hit in the first place. But like I said, I'm not here to talk about defenses or resistances, I'm here to say that the sets should have a speed/charge/damage penalty for one of the weapons that they DON'T specialize in, and leave the other one as a backup option, for starters to the playstyle. These sets have no penalty if you use the weapon they aren't intended for, meaning I could just as well have only bombs for my weapons, even though i use Shadowsun and Nameless. It is still a valid option, though it shouldn't be.

And as for Mad Bomber, maybe the developers can find a way to sort that one out. I'm for letting it stay the same, for now anyways. Not a full-time Bomber anymore, despite my Plasmatech costume armor, so I haven't yet decided.

Tue, 11/27/2012 - 23:40

#16

Darkbrady

the lower defense shouldnt

the lower defense shouldnt matter if you never get hit in the first place

The problem is that since the defence difference is only like 3%, and with Last Stand Rule, the difference is absolutely negligible. Even if you do get hit, it makes absolutely no difference overall. There should be enough of a difference so that offensive sets literally tank less hits than pure defensive sets. Then it's up to you to not get hit, but if you do, it's a lot worse off than using a defence set.

and leave the other one as a backup option, for starters to the playstyle.

the problem is that the set would decide for you which weapon would be your backup. Currently you can use wolver if you primary in swords, then bombs/guns as you fancy for your sidearm, it's up to you. With your suggestion, you'd be enforcing a set weapon combo on people, which isn't a popular ideal since this game is all about people being able to freely choose and mix'n'match their sets and weapons with whatever they feel like. Your set automatically discourages swordy-gunners, even if it is only a low bonus, and especially for starting players who can't negate the bonuses as easily. People will be brought into the game and advancing using wolver, and learning that guns shouldn't be combo'd with swords, which is not the message we want sent.
It'd be different if they doubled up the sets and had one for each negative, however, meaning that you take a negative no matter which set you use, but you at least get to pick which set.

Search

Nerfing the specialized armor, just a little.