In a weird, warped way, don't health trinkets make sure that strikers without health trinkets have to team up with recons and/or guardians to actually have a chance of defeating them?
Disallow Heart Trinkies in LD: Bring Back the Teamwork~
Because instead of using teamwork, they just get their own trinks.
^
Pretty much. Besides, it's a pretty screwed up logic that two equally geared (minus Hearts) and skilled strikers could face off each other, but the non-heart would invariably need someone to back him up. The trinkets really are as good as just having another person there.
Should be like other classes, where a 1v1 should be feasible; recons can 1v1 fine, so can guardians (even if slow), but when it comes to strikers, the hearts count more than anything else at all.
Totally forgot to do this with my first post. It probably doesn't matter, but might as well show my support for the idea.
I think they could disallow heart pendants in tier 1, or make a tier 0 for this purpose, so that new players in proto gear aren't completely turned off by PvP before they even understand how to play Spiral Knights.
With that said, I don't think they should get rid of heart pendants in tier 2 or tier 3. By the time players have reached those tiers, they understand the game and have accumulated some equipment. I think they should be able to use that equipment in PvP. A significant portion of the economy is fuelled by players crafting and purchasing equipment for Lockdown. This includes players consuming CE and materials to craft heart pendants.
In terms of Lockdown balance, you don't have to get rid of heart pendants to improve the class balance. Perhaps guardians and recons could get an increase to their base health, or perhaps strikers could have their damage bonus or ASI given to another class, but I think heart trinkets should still be allowed for players that want to use them.
Like other MMOs, this game is inherently unbalanced because people get to use their own gear, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Aside: I think you can get a glimpse of the designers' feelings about heart pendants by looking at the way they are crafted. Heart pendants require Enamorocks, and Enamorocks are a Krogmo Coin reward. That's the only thing Enamorocks are used for. I think this basically shows that Three Rings endorses the use of heart pendants in Lockdown, because somebody needs to play Lockdown in order to craft them.
Last paragraph is a good way to look at it. But then again, they also implemented DR as a shadow bomb that could tear through graveyards faster than any elemental bomb could and had the presence of mind to change it after realising the mistake. Similarly, EV can only be acquired via krogmos and I carry that (or Gravi) with me almost everywhere. Hearts can be used in CWs, just the same as any other trinkets.
Amn't disagreeing with the sentiment btw, just saying that I hope that's not their justification for allowing it to continue, as it applies to all krogmo gear which can and should be used everywhere, and that if there's a problem with something it should be fixed regardless of the original intentions. This is only a suggestion to that fix, but the fact that we need a fix is not a question.
Someone else (I forget who) said that removing a the damage bonus from strikers would encourage them to ditch a heart for a slash mod, which I guess would work, but if I can pull out striker damage as a recon with VH damage, then so can they; I reckon a lot of people would just suffer a damage penality in the hopes of redundancy factors (by that I mean that if a VH sword can kill them in three hits, then there's no guarantee that a max sword can do it in two; the max damage might not actually make a difference) and keep the hearts to increase tankitudiness. Could be wrong, ofc.
Spookington did already suggest just giving everyone hp, which I commented on earlier. I'm on the fence with that one, as my main issue isn't with strikers having hp, it's with strikers having the same hp as the other classes (and their max:max, and their boost) that bothers me.
Although don't get me wrong, I get that the classes are pretty imbalanced as it is. To make myself clear, this isn't a suggestion to solve all balance issues and put the world into order; I'm well aware that several problems will remain completely unchanged by this. I feel that Hearts are a huge problem for such a simple fix (whereas some other problems require more thought or a lot more work to balance without making things worse) and that as a bi-product of making this fix, we'll bring back teamwork.
As in the title, this thread isn't meant to be dedicated to LD balancing issues. Although I'm using lack of balance as reasoning, the main problem is that a teamwork game has basically become team deathmatch with a few support classes being kicked around because of this specific lack of balance. I feel that fixing that particular issue would encourage players being more team-orientated and working as teams proper, rather than everyone having soloist attitudes.
As for the rest of the balance problems, class bonus imbalances etc...well, they're for another thread and another discussion. I'm aware that changes here and there could affect this suggestion, but the more they get involved the more complicated things get and the more changes need to be made to make it work etc etc
Although I'm not against any other changes/suggestions that do go towards furthering my ideal of LD as a team game again.
You must be a S****y recon! Bro i drop them Strikers like flies! What game are you playing?? I get the striker vs striker bit but the guardian is too easy! Bro, if you do it right strikers will almost never even hit your shield! That's so lame! Talk to a dude named Kilplik or Kiplink or something like that... he is an elite guardian no trinks! You must suck!
It's klipik a few comment above he is the master guardian.And Yes, because whats-his-face-topic-maker sucks at LD
Trinkets really do take out the "team" in teamwork. Wanted some trinkets myself, but Cradarc knocked some sense into me. With heart trinkets, one player can just bust in wailing on the whole team, getting hit 3 times and not falling. One man army, so to speak. I cope with my team as a gunner, stun locking them by combining my shots with a swordy's swings. Now, if he had HP trinks, he wouldn't need me because he doesn't have to worry about health. And vice versa if I had HP trinks.
@Lezly:
You can't use one shining example of a pro player who can beat the odds, to make the point that there's no problem as it is. You get sword eaters at circuses, but does that mean I'm okay to grab the nearest sword and shove it down my mouth? Does it mean that I can sleep on a bed of coals because you get coal walkers? I'm double-jointed across most of my body; I can do a lot of stuff that if you tried to do, you'd break your bones. But I can do it, so that means you should be able to too, right?
Yes, I really do suck as a guardian, and yes you get amazing guardians who beat strikers down. But the average playerbase (read: the majority) get mowed down by heart clones. It's known as a rogue statistic, and is commonly ignored in science because one or two stats that are very far from the average are likely to come up, and they're not considered part of the average purely because they are, simply, not average.
Good for him that he can do it. But what about the rest of the players who can't? Point is that you get amazing bombers, amazing gunners, amazing recons, amazing guardians etc, who can do everything. They're skilled and/or they have no ping to speak of, so they can do the impossible. But the average player can't. However, clones don't need to be that skilled. A completely skillless clone can achieve amazing things because of Hearts doubling their margin for error. Thus, we have an imbalance, which leads to the aforementioned attitude of broken teamwork.
Hmm. Heart pendants? Yes. Weapon trinkets? Perhaps not. Those trinkets are for people who don't want to roll for UV's. Now, there are still balancing issues, but I wouldn't want to force people who are willing to spend real money to go to punch for each weapon. However, UV's and trinks help some classes less than others (poor recons). LD shields need to increase the cap.
Yeah...there was no mention of removing trinkets other than Hearts in this thread...
@Lezlyblade: I'm not sure if you're trolling, being egotistical, or just plain stupid...
~Sev
Oh no, removing all trinkies would just turn LD into "who has the most money for Punch" and UVs would be the next controlling factor bar none. In fact, my proposed solution is actually more UV-friendly, as it allows poorer players a remote chance to "equipmentally" compete with max-UV players, while leaving max UV players two empty trinket slots for hybridisation, variations, maxing stats that are a bit short and generally just giving them more options that they wouldn't otherwise consider in favour of Hearts.
Think I'll make myself some trinkies for T2 LD and see how well I do against other trink users. For reference: I play recon, and use a cryotech with either a fireburst brandish with asi low or flourish. "Oh no! ASI low is so unfair! It's the only reason you were good!" Yes, someone said this to me (name withheld) who used hammer, pulsar, and double heart trinks. I lol'd so hard.