If you consider yourself a beta tester, please try this:
Buy two weapon slot unlocks. Take 4 weapons of different types and star levels -- things that you would not normally take. Go down starting from depth 1, and report problems.
I took some 1 star and 2 star swords down into firefly. The 1 star equipment did more damage than the 2 star.
I can't test all the equipment, or all the depths, but I think something is wrong.
>The 1 star equipment did more damage than the 2 star.
This might be an intentional side effect of the "weapon potential." The 1-star equipment is "in tier" while the 2-star isn't. It would be interesting to see if you take more or less damage with different starred armor of the same range. If the 2-star armor still manages to protect more this anomaly might balance out. Otherwise this is a good find for unintentional consequences of the recent release. Of course this has to be tested within the same equip series of items.
This is a very interesting observation; in addition to naming the two items you used, can you verify that they are the same heat level?
In theory, a Level1 "upgraded" item would do at least as much damage as its maxed predecessor- but if you are comparing, say, alchemers vs blasters, then the heat level is an important variable. But if this finding does stand up, it's surprising, and a good catch- the dev notes were pretty clear that higher star levels should be better items regardless of tier.
In the absence of time for in depth testing of my own this week, I've been using my materials and energy to craft. The lower tier levels/items should definitely be tried thoroughly, so what I can do for Curtain- or anyone else who I trust to beta-test fairly- is offer to provide materials and pre-crafted items for testing purposes. Just let me know what you want / need help with, and I'll do what I can to take the strain off your testing budget.
Lower rarity weapons can potentially exceed higher rarity weapons in damage, based on weapon type (Troika vs Striker, for instance), heat level, and relative depth.
The issue is that we're not displaying the damage scaling of weapons in tooltips right now. This will be addressed in the future.
I noticed that Avenger has a bit more than two more damage bars than the Khorovod, but does about one-fourth the damage past Emberlight. I haven't tested it anywhere else yet. I guess this might be part of the same problem...?
So looking at Firefly, depth 1, Hall of the wild, on basic wolvers. Damage is first strike, combo strike:
Thwack hammer (1 star, 10 heat, attack 30): dmg 30, 39
Spur (2 star, 1 heat, attack 31): Dmg 14, 21.
Brandish (2 star, 10 heat, attack 42): Dmg 28, 36
Troika (2 star, 8 heat, attack 43): Dmg 32, 40
A 2 star weapon with base attack 31, more than my 1 star attack 30 weapon, does about half as much.
A fully heated Brandish is only a little worse than my 1 star weapon.
I have to go to a troika before I get better damage than my one star weapon.
The nerf to 2 star weapons is too big. Perhaps this explains why my two star shield can break in one hit (depth 2, Jelly farm, tree constructs.)
The thwack hammer is a slow class sword where as a brandish is a medium. In the time it takes to swing the slow class nigh 4 swings can be made with a medium.
Granted this does you little good if you're only attacking in single swings and retreating. Though the cool down time on the medium class is far shorter allowing you to move to safety out of a swing faster. So I guess it's up to you; Is the 2 points worth the extended vulnerability?
Now, if you take that Thwacker passed depth 9, I think you'll quickly see the short comings of trying to use a 1★ over a comparable 2★ item in the deeps.
> The thwack hammer is a slow class sword where as a brandish is a medium. In the time it takes to swing the slow class nigh 4 swings can be made with a medium.
That isn't the point.
The point is, an item with a stronger attack is nerfed to do less damage.
Two star items are supposed to still be stronger than one star items, just not as "ultra" better than before. Instead, they are weaker.
Oh: Given that input is only processed at the computer's speed, a fast sword on a slow computer is penalized.
> Oh: Given that input is only processed at the computer's speed, a fast sword on a slow computer is penalized
So when they fully optimize their minimum required specs for your computer to play this game, then this problem won't be present anymore.
Ok, here are some details on my test:
Test was in Firefly. Hall of the wild (depth 1), Stone grove (depth 2), Jelly farm 2 (depth 3).
"Attack" refers to the blue bar showing the normal attack strength
"dmg" is the actual damage done. I recorded the values on level 1, 2, and 3; note that the damage done did increase as I went down. Multiple numbers are normally "base" and "combo"; at depth 3, the damage wasn't constant -- some monsters took heavier damage than others.
The spur started at heat level 1; it reached heat level 2 on depth 3.
Thwack hammer (1 star, 10 heat, attack 30): dmg 30, 39 L2: 33, 43 L3: 34/44-36/47
Spur (2 star, 1 heat, attack 31): Dmg 14, 21. (L2: 16, 24) L3: 17/24
Brandish (2 star, 10 heat, attack 42): Dmg 28, 36 (l2: 32, 41) L3: 35/45
Troika (2 star, 8 heat, attack 43): Dmg 32, 40 (l3: 39/50)
Observations: The spur -- 1 heat, 2 star -- basically maxed out quickly (depth 2). The other two star items (more heat) kept getting better.
The one star item was "mixed" at depth 3 -- sometimes only slightly better than depth 2, sometimes much better.
The claim that a two star item with higher stats is better than a one star item with lower stats is false. Note that the spur didn't get much better at depth 3, and it is still far below the thwack hammer, despite having a bigger light-blue bar.
Troika damage on depth 2 was either not tested, or not recorded; this was discovered after killing the last monster on depth 2.
Next round of testing: a 1-7 run to moorcroft. Here, we're seeing the deeper half (the 4-7 zone), so the 2-star stuff should be more up to size, right?
1-7 run, Golden lion (purple/green heavy, some blue).
1 (Ovrtm) 2 (blght) 3(Dvl drg) 5 (mech) 6 (mech) 7 (mech)
Spur 15/23 16/24 19/29 20/32 (lvl 3) 28/37
Brand 29/38 32/41 37/47 41/53 47/61
TH 31/40 33/43 (?) 38/49 46/58 48/61
Troik 33/42 35/45 41/52 46/59 58/xx
Grumble grumble, even a code block on this forum does not force fixed width fonts (EDIT: It is a fixed width, but it doesn't fix tabs). Alright, let me see if I can space it better manually.
1-7 run, Golden lion (purple/green heavy, some blue).
. . . . . . 1 (Ovrtm). . 2 (blght). . 3(Dvl drg) . . . 5 (mech) . 6 . . 7 (mech)
Spur . . . 15/23 . . . . 16/24 . . . . 19/29 . . . . . . 20/32 . . (lvl 3) . . .28/37
Brand . . 29/38 . . . . 32/41 . . . . 37/47 . . . . . . 41/53 . . . . . . . . . 47/61
TH . . . . .31/40 . . . . 33/43 (?) . .38/49 . . . . . . 46/58 . . . . . . . . . 48/61
Troik . . . 33/42 . . . . 35/45 . . . . 41/52 . . . . . . 46/59 . . . . . . . . . 58/xx
Some notes:
1. Spur started at 2 heat, and went up to 3 heat on level 6. Troika is 8 heat. Brandish and Thwack hammer are 10 heat.
2. I did not record the numbers from level 6. My error.
3. Level 7's record for Brandish and Thwack hammer are almost identical. This is likely to be an error recording the brandish numbers twice; thwack hammer was expected to be better .
4. Despite the name, "Mechanized mile" is not construct heavy, it is gremlin heavy. Thwack hammer numbers were recorded from Gremlins, not constructs. Level 5's apparent oddity was verified -- it really does just about equal the troika.
Thwack hammer is 1 star. All of the other weapons have a better attack value. Yet it's clear that that doesn't matter.
The spur's attack value number is about the same as the thwack hammer -- so the reduction to less than half the attack value is a good indication of what the reduction actually becomes. That's too strong. Note that at no time did the spur catch up -- no matter how deep in the 1-5 zone (recall: 6 wasn't recorded, and 7 may be data recording error) I went did this two-star weapon become the equal of a one-star. Note that fully heated two-star stuff (Brandish) was only about the equal of a heated one star (thwack hammer), despite a much higher attack value. For people who say that the speed issue is the balance, the troika is the "heavier, slower" two-star; note that it is only barely better than the thwack hammer (and loses that improvement at level 5.)
I did not check what happens to zero-star items.
I have not yet checked two star vs three star below moorcroft
But one thing is clear: With reductions in strength like this, the assumption seems to be that we will keep a set of one-star items for our trips out of haven, and switch to our three-star set for going deeper than haven. That seems ... that seems to be contradicting the ideal of "alchemize your equipment up at each step".
This may explain why my two-star shield keeps breaking here. I may need to use my one star armor/shield for my haven solos. (My new two-star armor set isn't fully hot yet.)
Perhaps the blue bar doesn't indicate the damage of the first hit, but the damage of the full combo? Maybe a dev could even clarify on this.
Bumping.
I just retested this with a current gate.
Emerald Star has Wolvers Den on almost every floor; this let me do some serious depth testing, with consistent numbers.
I tested the following:
Thwack hammer (1 star, 10 heat, attack 30)
Spur (2 star, 1 heat, attack 31)
Brandish (2 star, 1 heat, attack 32)
Calibur (2 star, 1 heat, attack 32)
Now, my intent was to go down as deep as I could. Going from 1, down past 8, as deep as possible into the arenas. Sadly, I was forced to quit after 7.
These numbers are base/combo/charge, by depth.
. . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 3 (Totem 1) . . . 5 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . 7
TH. . . . . . 26/33/50 . . . . 30/39/58 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .41/53/?? . . 45/57/?? . . . 48/61/??
Spur . . . .12/17/12/10* . 13/19/13/13-25 .14/21 . . . . .16/25/16/17 . 19/??/??
Calibur . . 13/13/17/26 . . 15/19/15/30 . . . .12/21 . . . . .19/19/25/39 . 21/21/28/43
Brand . . . 13/13/17/26 . . 15/15/19/?? . . . .16/21 . . . . .19/??/25/39 . . 21/21/28/43 . . . ??
Now, let me clarify something here:
1. The thwack hammer is a 1 star, tier-1, 10 heat weapon with a 30 attack power.
2. The others were all 2 star, tier-2, 1 heat weapons. While they had a listed attack power of 31 or 32, in reality they were half the strength of a tier-1 weapon -- attack strength 15.
3. Supposedly, tier two weapons are supposed to be full power in tier 2, and weaker in tier 1. In reality, the tier 1 weapons get stronger until the end of tier 1, and then stay that strength. Tier two weapons are supposed to get stronger until the end of tier two, and then stay that strength. Supposedly, according to the conversation at the time, the idea was: "Think of it this way: The weapons get stronger as needed, until they max out".
But that's just not true.
At depth 9, a one star weapon will be at full strength. But a 2 star tier two weapon won't be at full strength for another 7 levels or so.
Tier 1 equipment is at full strength for ALL of tier 2 levels.
Tier 2 equipment is still playing catch up.
1-star weapons might be 20 to 30, depending on heat.
While 2-star weapons claim to be 31 to 40, in reality they behave as 15 to 40.
We are supposed to need tier 2 weapons for the deeper depths. In fact, I needed the higher damage of the tier-1 TH to take out the boss wolves; the higher damage of the TH was nothing but a help. The only reason that a tier 2 weapon was of any use was the "as long as I can keep them either solo, or all on one side of me, I can avoid taking most damage" of the brandish. The forced advance of the spur made it unusable, and the lack of any benefit of the calibur made me wonder why anyone would use it -- oh, right, it's the "base" weapon in the "anyone can get this set" stuff.
The current set up fails.
The goal, apparently, is to make people use tier appropriate stuff.
The intent, apparently, is to make your equipment get stronger as the monsters you fight get stronger.
Except that a lower-star, lower-tier weapon is just plain better until you've gotten the heat level up (see my earlier post in this thread).
Now for some notes on those weapons:
TH has a longer reach than any of the other three, including spur's move-forward.
??: Ran out of monsters before this damage item could be determined.
Floor 3 had different monsters; damage may not be comparable.
Floor 1-5 was heat level 1; floor 6-7 was heat level 2. TH was heat 10 (complete).
Floor 7 actually was hard enough that I was almost exclusively TH and brandish. Brandish was about 24 or so; damage wise, the TH was much better, but the brandish has a nice special: it interrupts almost all attacks, preventing me from being hit.
** NB: Spur first attack forces a step forward! Second attack shows damage animation behind and step forward.
** Spur charge is weaker than normal, but appears to be area affect in front of you; may be 2 attacks. ** On depth 2, spur's charge did 13 to 2 creatures, or 25 to one. This higher strength charge was not seen elsewhere.
** Spur's 3rd strike is weaker but faster than 2nd.
Calibur is a 3 strike combo; 3rd strike shows animation behind. 2nd and 3rd step forward. ** Both normal and combo appear to be the same damage! Confirmed -- at least the first two steps are base damage. 3rd (?) is higher.
Brandish is a 3 strike combo; 3rd shows animation behind. 2nd and third step forward. Whether the second or third attack is the stronger one was not clear.
No case of "damage the enemy behind you" could be confirmed, regardless of on-screen animations.
Calibur's combo is interrupted by enemy attack. Weak.
Brandish seems to interrupt enemy attacks. Exceptional if not surrounded. Not 100%.
Listing the actual equipment you are testing would also be helpful.