Spiral Knights - My concerns about the Battle Sprites

My concerns about the Battle Sprites

16 replies [Last post]

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 16:00

Najdorf

I worry that the battle sprites will (like everything) be more useful to the sword user than any other class.

If the dragon has strong ranged attack then it will lesson the need to carry guns.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:01

Little-Juances

I'm worried players will run in circles until the sprites kill everything.
Enemy AI is too dumb and easily kitted.

Poison is underrated but actually quite powerfull. Enemy is weaker, your weapon deals more damage (and unlike say having skolver wich only buffs YOU, you're helping the entire party). Who knows, it may give better DPS than the dragon fire.
I even fear such toxic pet could be OP in RJP and OCH...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:13

Luguiru

I hope they give these things more complex abilities than "inflicts X status" or "attacks for Y damage" or "gives party members Z defense(s)" which were the things so often rejected in the land of sausage tins.

For example, with the little dragon thing, it can attack but after doing so has a cooldown time before it can attack again during which your knight will receive a damage penalty. If you use its attack you do more damage in that short burst of time but both your knight and pet become "exhausted" immediately after. Or with the fairy-ghost-thing-that-is-best-Spiralmon having it able to pick up a bomb placed by its owner then being able to redeploy it on command.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:17

Doctorspacebar

OP has never seen Venom Veiler in a room with two Silkwings or two Menders. I'd like to see Maskeraith outdo a bomber spamming VV/AoA in an arena's last wave!

I'm worried the game will become too easy overall with the Sprites. Nick said their attacks would be activated manually, but still...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:24

Kilbride

Concern noted.

Congratulations on starting a thread with reasonable discussion instead of hateful toxicity. Not that I would expect nastiness of anyone who has posted so far. :D

I have similar misgivings about pets in combat, but I am very optimistic. I think adding a little complexity to how characters and loadouts are put together could be really fun. And it sounds like the approximate schedule that Nick gave us will give them time to get it right. I know a few of the old-school games that he likes and I trust him.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:30

Traevelliath

I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself. You're acting like they have already been released.

"If the dragon has strong ranged attack then it will lesson the need to carry guns."

Well first of all, there is technically no "need" for any specific weapon type. You can do the entire game with one weapon type. As one who gunslings a lot, let me tell ya: You never can have too much gun. Personally I'd love to have a bit more chaos and death-dealing while Gunslinging. I wouldn't mind having a pet-dragon shooting beside me :P

"If a gunner/bomber chooses the defensive sprite it will make us even more useless than ever (comparatively). I fear the defense sprite will be the epitome of swiftstrike/BTS vs a defensive shield. Anyone carrying the defense sprite into battle will just be someone who makes the party run slower than it otherwise would."

Defensive doesn't necessarily mean slow. We have no idea what the defensive Seraphynxes will be capable of. For all we know, you could flip a switch and suddenly party-wide Movement Speed Increase: Maximum! Yes, people tend to forsake defense a lot for offense, so I'm entirely sure how effective they will be. However, from what I gathered, the Defensive Kitty will rely more on indirect boosts, instead of the direct face melting of Drakon. The buffs could vary from damage boosts, charge time reduction boosts, massive status defenses, etc.

"Naturally i assume the toxic sprite will be somewhat useless as poisoning things is generally unneccassary. And if it does cause a nice strong poison it will seem very weird that there is a carry-along sprite that is more useful than the venom viler."

I disagree heartily with this. Throw a bit of poison around and suddenly Silkwings and Menders will be killing en masse. Poison also increases your damage on the targets, as well as decrease enemy damage significantly. From the description, I'd wager that the Maskeraiths will have a few tricks to really debilitate foes, beyond just poison. I wouldn't be surprised to see stuff like near immobilization, mass status effects, reducing enemy attacks to the equivalent of smacking someone with a noodle, and maybe even confusion. In terms of conflicting with haze bombs... well I kinda agree there, but I'm not sure it will be worse or better than a haze bomb. I'd wager that it'll be an either/or choice, similar to choosing between Sealed Swords and Brandishes.

"This will probably all be needless worry as ultimately everyone will be have to simply take the DPS sprite if they want to be the best they can. And taking other pets will be a hipster move. Hope i'm wrong, but i don't see how it can go any other way among those trying to be their most effective."

I think you're being a bit too negative. Optimism is nice ya know. Yes, people are probably going to gravitate towards the direct DPS of the Drakon... but people still love the indirect chaos of Haze Bombs and Vortex Bombs.

(Although I completely agree with your Vials > Haze Bomb sentiment)

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:43

Spiralviperr

Moo

Remember guys, Nick DID say there would be more than just the three starter sprites in the game.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 17:45

Klipik

and also remember

these are STARTER sprites. That means we can get different ones later, right?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 19:22

Aero-Shark

Defensive Sprite

The cat (defensive sprite) was actually what I was planning on, since it reminds me of being a Paladin, which is my favourite class in like, anything.

I'm sure they'll all have their proper uses and be balanced. I'm personally trying to remain positive about this.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 21:17

Aumir

Actually

Cat shield+Bomber= Unstoppable Nitro/etc spam

I don't think I am going to make the party slower at all...

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 21:49

#10

Brownyoshi

Looking forward to them

Personally, I look forward to these guys. They'll add more variety, I hope.

I'm thinking the attack sprite will probably be more of a ranged attacker, and extra firepower isn't a bad thing, but the other two feel more like they will work like a mage does in RPGs. They can do certain things that have special effects.

If the toxic sprite can poison all enemies in a certain radius, I would find that extremely valuable for the reasons Traevelliath mentioned. Healing for the healers no longer works, you do more damage, they do less, that's GREAT.
It would be ESPECIALLY helpful in arenas on the final wave of the 3rd round, as the 2 healers that can be difficult to get to with the sea of enemies, but with mass poison they would be rendered useless (and actually become self-destructive).

The defense sprite will probably provide some sort of bonus to everyone's armors or shields, or maybe add resistance to a certain type, who knows, but I can see it being useful, scenario depending. Like say, if there's one that can add fire resist and shadow defense, you'll probably want a couple of them on your team when you do FSC.
I don't feel like they would favor one particular attack type over another at all, or at least not make any of them worse.

Now, if they add some that can heal you... that would be epic.... and possibly broken, depending on how it's done.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 23:39

#11

Breaker-Xd

Lockdown.

Err...
I'll just assume for now that they are not allowed in Lockdown. If they are, MANY ISSUES COULD ARISE.

They sound helpful, and would make running missions like FSC and RJP a breeze. (any help would make them a breeze; they're easy enough as they are now)

Sounds a bit like Spiralmon, so I'm slightly disapproving, but the community has been calling for "pets" for a long time, and is finally getting its wish.

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 02:45

#12

Zaffy-Laffy

Zaffy is Laffy

If all those issues or any more issues come out, OOO can just Rip off the pets from you, and give a full refund!~ No more pets, you have refunds, no rights to complain.

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 02:49

#13

Euclidean-Space

I worry that the battle sprites will (like everything) be more useful to the sword user than any other class.
It's not released yet, and I believe that OOO will make it useful for each class (or playstyle).

If the dragon has strong ranged attack then it will lesson the need to carry guns.
There is no NEED to carry any type of weapons in this game, you can go fully guns, fully bombs or fully swords. What makes SK unique is its freedom of gear combinations, breaking the bonds of regular cliche online MMOs where you have that boring class settings (Like Hunter, assassin, archer etc) allow you to equip yourself to satisfy your needs. I'm also sure that Battle Spirit's skills have cooling times, which menas you can't just use it as a gun and shoot around whenever you feel like it.

If a gunner/bomber chooses the defensive sprite it will make us even more useless than ever (comparatively). I fear the defense sprite will be the epitome of swiftstrike/BTS vs a defensive shield. Anyone carrying the defense sprite into battle will just be someone who makes the party run slower than it otherwise would.
I agree with you, although not 100%. Gunners and bombers can survive easily and also die easily (assuming the person is pure bomb/gun). Most gunners carry a DA/GF in case he/she gets cornered by monsters which is pretty much an instant kill. Kat pets may generate a buff or somewhat a protection bubble as defensive status, the bomber then can go full rage Nitrolling, or spam DBB around, I don't think that will make the party slower. Gunners also benifit as nothing can stop them from that ultra-DPS blitz charging :P

Naturally i assume the toxic sprite will be somewhat useless as poisoning things is generally unneccassary. And if it does cause a nice strong poison it will seem very weird that there is a carry-along sprite that is more useful than the venom viler. (also, it is kinda ridiculous that vials are better than haze bombs, but don't get me started on that. It would be like throwing a 4 times stronger sword at an enemy for a vial...ugh).
I have to fully disagree with you're 'poison is somewhat useless' here. You obviously don't know how poison is one of the most powerful status as in PvE in this game. Assuming the moster doesn't do poison damage (which obviously it's immune to that) a single VV can crush any arena easily. Silkwings become meat grinders will AT and follows the monster, keeps on 'healing' it to death. I like how those Kats can dash around annoyingly but can't avoid silkwings healing them. Gremlin Menders may place down high dps damaging fields that stay there for a long period killing anything that goes in it. Poison decreases the enemy's defence - more damage output to you. Poison decreases its damage - less damage input to you. Poison also turns healing into harming - the most annoying things are now meat grinders. Any arena can be conquered with VV+AoA, even the poison Mecha themed ones (AoA fire oh yeah!) I do somehow agree with your vial>haze bomb statement.

This will probably all be needless worry as ultimately everyone will be have to simply take the DPS sprite if they want to be the best they can. And taking other pets will be a hipster move. Hope i'm wrong, but i don't see how it can go any other way among those trying to be their most effective.
Trust OOO, they should be able to balance these sprits, also I'll go with the poison one. My favourite status :3 (Any hope we get curse spirits? Lol xD)

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 06:32

#14

Dagoth-Mafuba

familiars ?

There are few things that would make you choose one, how usefull is it in battle and ekhem...how it looks with you in haven :D
For new players it will be making game kind of easier, the will propably choose dragon 'cause "its a awesome dragon woooo it breaths fire". It all depends on what dmg they can do, and how would be their AI. Veteran players would rather pick one depending on which looks best with me in haven, colors matter blah blah blah, why?
Poison helps a lot but it just makes killing faster. If you dont have problems without it, well you get my point.
Dragon breathing, oh well it looks cool but it wont help sooo much.
Defensive shiled like gremlin healer (just like Hadesrebellion wrote) or maybe an aura boosting up defense or maybe giving some protection against status, that would be usefull...for lets say plaers who end game on defeating vana, for doing some danger missions like Compound42 or Ghost in the Machine. Veterans don't need them too, why? if you're good enought you dont get hit much and you're propably using swiftstrike even though its T3 and you're not gunner or BTS for that dmg bonus.
I would propably chose defensive one 'cause its colors match up with mine LOL :D, but if i could i would want to test all. Everything depends on what will OOO do.
Maybe sprites will be just doing status rings like bombs (fire, gremlin healing aura, poison). With some cooldown time it should be balanced, depending on time. There will propably be some costumes for sprites, accesories etc etc.

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 06:53

#15

Aandy

Never thought about that o__o

Never thought about that o__o the dragon one would only get useful if you use sword then if it has a short range.
I bet you there going to put them in boxes that you get for free with and energy purchase:|

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 09:10

#16

Traevelliath

@Aandy: What? Your logic makes little sense...

Close Range Dragon for swords only? What about bombers? Drop a vortex bomb and then signal your flaming flying friend to take a massive bite out of the clump of enemies. Even then "Fiery Blasts" imply some sort of range. IDK how you got the idea that they'd be short-range only.

Nick also said you get em via new rank missions... Not with $$ spent. If anything, $$ spent will get you something shiny to staple to your sprite's face.

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My concerns about the Battle Sprites