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Monster Balance Thread

7 replies [Last post]
Sun, 01/20/2013 - 12:38
Thinslayer's picture
Thinslayer

With the advent of pets, the game is likely to become easier. Considering that knights can already destroy everything in the Clockworks with relative ease, improving the difficulty is a necessity. However, recall that the nerfs were done for a reason - the developers wanted the less-skilled to have fun. One of the marks of a great game is that it can be played by anyone of any skill, yet still offer a challenge to hardcore players. We need to keep that in mind. Spiral Knights is very close to that mark as it is now; we just need to tweak it a bit.

Onto the balancing.
Beasts
The primary issue with beasts is the lack of a ranged unit; the heavyweight role is occupied by the Alpha Wolver, and the grunt role is taken by the Wolver. Chromalisks and wolvers make up the primary ranks of this family, so we should work with what we have before recommending a new unit. Basic chromalisks, as you may remember, tend to stick out their tongues over about 2-3 spaces, and the spitting chromalisks can spit for about the same distance. They are clearly the ranged unit of this family, but they are butt-weak. So only a simple buff is needed: increase the range of their spit attacks. Basic chromalisks can remain unchanged. After the nerf, the weakest monster in the game has been, almost unquestioningly, the Wolver. They used to track you before and during bites; now they just track you before they bite. This wouldn't be a problem if the bite attack was fast, but it's not. The recommended buff is simple: have all wolvers track you through the first bite. For Alpha Wolvers, the second and third bites do not track. This ought to make wolvers one of the least gun-friendly monsters in the game, as they're supposed to be; if you get to close, they will bite you every time. If you stand far and gun, they will dodge your shots more often than not.

Constructs
As a family, they are remarkably balanced in terms of close-range and long-range firepower. They have close-ranged units, heavyweights, ranged units, and grunts. I cannot presently recommend any balances for this family.

Fiends
This family is renowned for containing the most challenging enemies in the game. They pretty much hold their own in terms of internal balance (i.e., within the family), though there is some debate about their overall balance in the game. If the buffs to the other families do their job, that problem should be taken care of. The first monster I will look at is the notorious Devilite. The primary source of frustration with this monster type is the unusually short warning flash before an attack. If the duration of this flash is lengthened too much, however, Devilites could become a joke. I believe the problem stems from the warning being shorter than human reflexes can account for; our response time averages out to about 3/4 second, but the attack warning occurs over roughtly 1/2 second. If the warning is extended to about 3/4 second, it will allow an alert player to defend himself while soundly whipping a lazy player. Trojans? lol, they're fabulous as-is.

Gremlins
Gremlins are the second most challenging foe in the game. And rightly so; they are essentially the archenemies of the Spiral Knights. They are incredibly strong at close-range combat, but they have a rather glaring hole in their ranged units. I recommend allowing scorchers to fire their ember bolts more often, and placing scorchers in more combat situations. One could even give them status fire based on the theme; they could throw green shadow fire in poison themes, lightning in shock themes, blue ice fire in ice themes, and standard flaming fire in fire themes. And naturally, the ember bolts would inflict the same status.

Slimes
Slimes have a good balance of units built into them, but they don't use them like they ought. They have the jelly cube for a melee unit, lichen for a ranged unit, and lichen colony for a heavyweight. Since slimes are strongest up close, it is appropriate that they all have an effective melee attack, but it is unfortunate that their ranged attacks really suck.I like the jelly cube spike attack as-is; it's the lichens that need the modifications. Their spin attack needs only one modification: each shot in the spray needs to be aimed at a specific (and different) target, and shouldn't be aimed randomly (if it ever was).

Undead
Now this is a curious family. They have all the roles filled, but they tend not to occur at the same time. Kats are the ranged units, zombies are the melee units, dreadnaughts are the heavyweights, and the Almirian Crusaders are just awesome. Seriously, they are the best darn enemies I've ever fought in this game. But anyways. Kats and zombies are rarely seen together in the same level, and dreadnaughts only occur in Danger Missions. The monsters themselves don't need to be balanced quite as much as the monster placement does. To cite an example, Firestorm Citadel would be considerably more balanced (and difficult!) if it was populated by both kats and zombies.

I just had a wicked thought: if the zombie swipe attack was replaced by an attack that lets them latch onto and bite the player, that would add a serious scare factor to them. They should be harmless enough when kept at distance, but their grabbing attack takes about a second to activate and is readily interrupted. If successful, the grab attack allows the zombie to latch onto the player and chomp on him for a bit. This immobilizes the player for the duration of the attack and allows other zombies to gang up on him and do the same thing.

Anybody have other ideas on how to balance the monsters?

Sun, 01/20/2013 - 14:30
#1
Dmatter's picture
Dmatter
Or you could have them focus

Or you could have them focus on what they are GOOD at and be balanced,not virtually the same and balanced, just saying balanced means different but equel not same and equel. Example, Beasts are power mongers, and jellys are defense tanks.

Sun, 01/20/2013 - 16:50
#2
Likal's picture
Likal
Stuff

I had posted a bunch of similar stuff in another thread, but that one quickly went off the rails, so I'mma copy-paste is all here.

-I've heard stories that Wolvers used to have better tracking when attacking, bringing that back would be a good start. Chromalisks should spawn cloaked, cloak more readily, and maybe have a slightly longer attack range (but still attack from close-up).
-Slimes could have their elemental identities strengthened. Self-igniting Oilers, Toxigels that spew poison gas (or leave poison blobs like in Compound 24), that kinda thing. Low-level Lichen colonies could stand to be more interesting, too. Maybe if they got a speed boost the smaller they are.
-Retrodes rays could explode a little faster, and Skuttlebot attack area could stand to be larger (and maybe be a true cone, rather than a bunch of bullets). Although I do think that enemy Mecha Knights need a longer wind-up time on their generic sword swipes, but the random self-shocking can go away. (And if I never see a Rocket Puppy ever again, I wouldn't shed a single tear.)
-Gremlins are mostly fine, although the little ones could stand some kind of buff and the Flamethrowers' flame trails should chase players rather than being random. (Same for Flame Puppies.)
-Mewkats are fine as-is, but Zombies should get the same knight-tracking buff as Wolvers for their leap and breath attack. As for Phantoms, see my previous comment on Mecha Knight attack speed.
-Fiends need no help. Devilites should be nerfed if you ask me, but that's another topic.

Sun, 01/20/2013 - 17:08
#3
Shotjeer's picture
Shotjeer
u posted that on my thread!

T3 trojans I find personnally wayyyy too easy to kill, even when soloing. I said this in my thread as well. Trojans should have more health, faster recovery time from sword slams, and a weak barrier protecting their back for a few hits, then it breaks, and it will regrow after like 6 seconds. Mortafires need a melee attack, and I agree that scorchers should have shadow fire grenades, basically demo bombs but leave a bit of shadow fire behind, which fades a bit slower than oil does.

Sun, 01/20/2013 - 17:15
#4
Canine-Vladmir's picture
Canine-Vladmir
LOL i find this funny

...blue ice fire...
:}
I like how fiends are right now. they almost want you to rage quit.

Sun, 01/20/2013 - 22:29
#5
Thinslayer's picture
Thinslayer
I'm Thinslayer, and I approve this message.

@Dmatter: I'm just looking to balance existing units. I agree with you, but such a revamped balance is incredibly different and difficult, and is not the purpose of this thread.

@Likal: I was around when they nerfed the Wolvers. They were a nightmare to fight; you couldn't get close to them, and you couldn't shoot them then any more than you could now. Alpha Wolvers were worse; their triple bites were long-ranged, powerful, and never missed. They seriously needed that nerf. Now they need a slight buff, but certainly not to their former level.

Yeah, retrode beams could stand to fire off faster, as they're presently a cinch to evade. Scuttlebot attacks need not be a true cone, as you're not exactly going to be avoiding their fire by standing in between their shots. Mecha knights are kinda awesome and challenging as is, and I like their self-shocking quirk; it adds character to them.

I agree about the knockers and scorchers. See, the knockers are weaker than scuttlebots because they're not large enough to plausibly box in players, and they can't launch a spread attack that is tougher to avoid. Knockers are small enough to just walk around, and their attack is readily sidestepped. To make them deadlier, I think their special explosion attack should become their main attack, without the self-infliction, of course.

Zombies need to change the conditions a bit under which they make the leap attack, but they otherwise hold their own rather well. That's the problem, actually - they are too balanced, and make most of the other undead types redundant. If they are spammed, they pose a challenging fight for swordsmen, gunners, and bombers alike. Maybe that's the intent, but I don't care for it that much.

@Shotjeer: Trojans are fine. You're just good at killing them, like I am. Their challenge arises when there's more than one. But buffing Mortafires by giving them melee attacks?! Do you have a death wish or something? Not for being killed by Mortafires, but by the legions of frustrated players who just can't hit the darn things in their backs. I just gotta ask...have you fought them often? Like, in OCH?

@Canine-Vladmir: I got the idea from Zelda Ocarina of Time. If you've played it, you'll know what I'm talking about. If not, look up the game's "Ice Cavern."

Mon, 01/21/2013 - 02:15
#6
Zeddy's picture
Zeddy

"I just had a wicked thought: if the zombie swipe attack was replaced by an attack that lets them latch onto and bite the player, that would add a serious scare factor to them."

This attack exists already, but it happens the a zombie jumps onto the player. The jump is not very hard to avoid anymore, so not many see it. Try wearing full ancient plate sometime!

Mon, 01/21/2013 - 15:02
#7
Thinslayer's picture
Thinslayer
@Zeddy

I am aware that the jump attack can rarely let the zombie latch onto the player. I am also aware that it is not very hard to avoid anymore; I've kinda gotten good at it, and can even use it to my advantage. That's why I recommended that it also be added to the swipe attack.

Oh, and I love Ancient Plate. :D

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